The Nation of Islam; Your thoughts on this

[mojtaba]

If there's no new religion, and the message still is Islam, so what it's all about.
Do we need to believe in Ali to be Muslims or just to believe the messengers and their messages
which is Islam.

Is Ali one of the five pillars of Islam.

Follow the order of your Prophet which he said in Ghadir Khom.

The one who had knowledge of the Book,.....
Which book?

Is there any Book greater than Noble Qur'an?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Salam brother Muhammad-Isa.

Allah is intrinsically infallible. Others by will of Allah are infallible.

Prophets are Mukhlas,

Wa'alaikumsalam

That's right .. because they have a greater iman than us, and their sincerity is therefore purer than ours, that doesn't mean that they are somehow 'superhuman' ..
This is a very common mistake.

"The jews said that Ezra is the son of God" .. "The Christians say that Jesus is the son of God"

..and a large number of Muslims claim that Muhammad, peace be with him, has attributes of Allah ta'alla .. which is getting dangerously close to the same thing..

 

[FearGod]

Follow the order of your Prophet which he said in Ghadir Khom.

That isn't one of the pillars of Islam, as to believe that Ali should be the leader
after the prophet similar to Christians that they should believe Jesus as son of
God for the salvation ....etc

How believing in such stories should affect the person's faith and believe.

Is there any Book greater than Noble Qur'an?

Quran was for prophet Muhammed, how the quran existed in the time of solomon?

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

You guys have gone well off topic, did anyone even answer the TS?

The NOI are not muslim, I'm still confused as to why they use the term "Islam" in their political agenda. Their belief system states that Fareed Muhammad was the human incarnation of Allah (astaghfurullah) and that Elijah Muhammad was his chosen messenger. Without even delving deeper into the acts carried out the NOI (drugs, alcohol, prostitution etc), this is a clear indication that these people commit shirk and preach lies. The NOI, as regarded by all educated Islamic scholars and councils, both sunni and shia, are not Muslims.

I hope that makes things clearer.

 

[FearGod]

You guys have gone well off topic, did anyone even answer the TS?

The NOI are not muslim, I'm still confused as to why they use the term "Islam" in their political agenda. Their belief system states that Fareed Muhammad was the human incarnation of Allah (astaghfurullah) and that Elijah Muhammad was his chosen messenger. Without even delving deeper into the acts carried out the NOI (drugs, alcohol, prostitution etc), this is a clear indication that these people commit shirk and preach lies. The NOI, as regarded by all educated Islamic scholars and councils, both sunni and shia, are not Muslims.

I hope that makes things clearer.

Yes indeed we did.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..The NOI, as regarded by all educated Islamic scholars and councils, both sunni and shia, are not Muslims.

I hope that makes things clearer.

Hmm .. I'm not very happy with people saying that others aren't Muslims or Christians etc.
Most certainly they are guilty of 'shirk kabir' which is a great sin .. that can lead to 'kufr' which is, of course, as you say, 'out of Islam'

I thought that these days, they are 'married' to the church of scientology, no?

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Hmm .. I'm not very happy with people saying that others aren't Muslims or Christians etc.
Most certainly they are guilty of 'shirk kabir' which is a great sin .. that can lead to 'kufr' which is, of course, as you say, 'out of Islam'

I thought that these days, they are 'married' to the church of scientology, no?

In all honesty, you not being happy with it does not change the fact. When someone commits certain acts, they leave the religion of Islam and one of those acts may be shirk but in some way, more importantly, it is NOT accepting the finality of Rasul Allahs (PBUH) Prophethood. That is a plain and simple criteria of being a muslim in Islam. The vats majority of mainstream muslim scholars have given fatwas on the NOI, from sunni to shia, from Asia to Africa, by way of Europe and the States.

In a situation like this, one must put personal opinions, likes and dislikes to one side and see the truth, which is that NOI are impostors who do damage to Islam and Muslims in America.

Edit: I don't know about their current affiliation with scientology, which may well be possible considering NOIs lust for money and power.

 

[muhammad_isa]

In a situation like this, one must put personal opinions, likes and dislikes to one side and see the truth, which is that NOI are impostors who do damage to Islam and Muslims in America.

I'm probably just a coward .. but I don't like confrontation, unless it's necessary.
eg. when people are being oppressed.

I don't see any problem with explaining to others which we think is correct. That's very important.
But creating enmity, I'm not in favour of. I see too much conflict going on in the world between "Muslims" (sic)

 

[use_your_brain]

The Right of Khilafah was only for Imam Ali. But others disobeyed Prophet Muhammad. This disobeying is not surprising, they disobeyed Prophet very times. For example,

When Allah's Messenger (s) was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was `Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet (s) said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray".
Umar said, " Indeed illness has overcomed the Prophet ( so He does not know what He says! ) and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us".* The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Messenger (S) may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while some of them said what `Umar said. When they made much noise and differed greatly before the Prophet, He( Prophet ) said to them, "Go away and leave me". Ibn `Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their difference and noise prevented Allah's Messenger (S) from writing that writing for them.

-Sahih al-Bukhari , Book 96, Hadith 93

* Holy Qur'an, 53:1-5
By the star when it sets: (1) your companion( Prophet Muhammad ) has neither gone astray, nor amiss. (2) Nor does he speak out of [his own] desire: (3) it is just a revelation that is revealed [to him], (4) taught him by one of great powers, (5)


According to shia belief, Imam Ali never gave the oath of allegiance to them.

But according to your belief, Imam Ali until martyrdom of Hadhrat Fatimah, i.e., 6 months after demise of Prophet, did not give the oath of allegiance to Abubakr.

Umar narrated,
the Ansar disagreed with us and gathered in the shed of Bani Sa`da. `Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us.
(Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 86, Hadith 57)

So she[Hadhrat Fatimah, the daughter of Prophet Muhammad ] became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband `Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself........ `Ali had not given the oath of allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death).
(Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 64, Hadith 278)


Their teachings are the teachings of Qur'an and Prophet.

The Messenger of Allah declared in Ghadir Khom:
"It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere to them both, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my Progeny, that is my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."
(Al-Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, vol. 3, p. 109.)

- Which scriptural text of Syiah source state that Ali didn't give oath to Abu Bakar, Umar and Usman?
- Do you mean Ahlul Bait taught the same thing with what the prophet or quran teaches? what is the problem then?

 

[use_your_brain]

Is Imam Mahdi lower than 'Asiph Barkhia[ 'Asif Barkhiya ], who was the minister of Prophet Solomon?

Holy Qur'an, 27:40
He said, ‘O [members of the] elite! Which of you will bring me her throne[ of the ruler of Sheba ] before they come to me in submission?’
The one who had knowledge of the Book['Asif Barkhiya] said, ‘I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye.’ So when he saw it set near him, he[Solomon] said, ‘This is by the grace of my Lord, to test me if I will give thanks or be ungrateful. Whoever gives thanks, gives thanks only for his own sake. And whoever is ungrateful [should know that] my Lord is indeed all-sufficient, all-generous.’

According to Hadiths, Prophet Jesus will pray Salas al-Jama'ah behind Imam Mahdi and Imam Mahdi will be Imam al-Jama'ah(Sahih Muslim, v1, p137). So, you think Imam Mahdi is lower than 'Asif, the minister of Prophet Solomon?

Just because Nabi Isa will pray behind the Mahdi it doesn't mean the Mahdi belong to any supernatural power nor any superiority over others. Prophet Muhammad also used to pray behind Abu Bakr, does that imply Abu Bakar was superiority over the Prophet?

And so far I don't get the logic connection among mahdi, isa, solomon and Asif.

 

[mojtaba]

Wa'alaikumsalam

That's right .. because they have a greater iman than us, and their sincerity is therefore purer than ours, that doesn't mean that they are somehow 'superhuman' ..
This is a very common mistake.

"The jews said that Ezra is the son of God" .. "The Christians say that Jesus is the son of God"

..and a large number of Muslims claim that Muhammad, peace be with him, has attributes of Allah ta'alla .. which is getting dangerously close to the same thing..

Did I say you they are superhuman, or say you because of the conversation of Allah from them, Satan and evil doings never touch them?

Brother, I only brought for you verses of Qur'an, did not I?

 

[mojtaba]

That isn't one of the pillars of Islam, as to believe that Ali should be the leader
after the prophet similar to Christians that they should believe Jesus as son of
God for the salvation ....etc

How believing in such stories should affect the person's faith and believe.

Yes. When disbelievers were rejecting the Facts of Qur'an, they said that it is only the stories of past, like you.
I do not mean your are disbeliever. Here is only an example.

Quran was for prophet Muhammed, how the quran existed in the time of solomon?

I did not mean that Book was Qur'an. I meant whatever that Book was, it is not greater than Noble Qur'an. Righ?

 

[mojtaba]

- Which scriptural text of Syiah source state that Ali didn't give oath to Abu Bakar, Umar and Usman?

Not important. I bring for you, your books. You can also see the post 5 of here, MUTIWATIR AND AUTHENTIC HADITH OF GHADIR

- Do you mean Ahlul Bait taught the same thing with what the prophet or quran teaches? what is the problem then?

Are you following their teachings or the teachings of others?

Prophet Muhammad also used to pray behind Abu Bakr, does that imply Abu Bakar was superiority over the Prophet?

And so far I don't get the logic connection among mahdi, isa, solomon and Asif.

Any way, is Imam Mahdi greater than 'Asif or not?
While Imam Mahdi has علم الكتاب the knowledge of Book of Allah, the Book that is indeed in Umm al-Kitab with Allah, but 'Asif had علمٌ من الكتاب a knowledge from Book[may be Umm al-Kitab ]

Chapter 43
We have made it an Arabic Quran so that you may exercise your reason, (3) and it is sublime and wise with Us in the Mother Book. (4)

 

[use_your_brain]

Not important. I bring for you, your books. You can also see the post 5 of here.


Are you following their teachings or the teachings of others?


Any way, is Imam Mahdi greater than 'Asif or not?
While Imam Mahdi has علم الكتاب the knowledge of Book of Allah, the Book that is indeed in Umm al-Kitab with Allah, but 'Asif had علمٌ من الكتاب a knowledge from Book[may be Umm al-Kitab ]

Chapter 43
We have made it an Arabic Quran so that you may exercise your reason, (3) and it is sublime and wise with Us in the Mother Book. (4)

- You didn't answer why Ali also gave oath to Umar and Usman.
- Then let us follow ahlul bait teaching if they taught the same thing with what the prophet taught.
- Is Mahdi greater than Asif? I don't know. Is that important? But at least Asif able to move the big throne by using a supernatural power, can the Mahdi do the same thing?
- I have also a knowledge of Book of Allah. Does that make me a great person?

 

[FearGod]

Yes. When disbelievers were rejecting the Facts of Qur'an, they said that it is only the stories of past, like you.
I do not mean your are disbeliever. Here is only an example.

I believe in God whereas they don't, the verse says that they claim that the quran about a myth,so
they don't believe in the quran because they think it invents stories whereas i believe in the message
of the quran but i don't care who should be the caliphate after the prophet.

I did not mean that Book was Qur'an. I meant whatever that Book was, it is not greater than Noble Qur'an. Righ?

Is there a story which says that the quran was used by someone to do miracles, similar to the story of Solomon.

 

[mojtaba]

I believe in God whereas they don't, the verse says that they claim that the quran about a myth,so
they don't believe in the quran because they think it invents stories whereas i believe in the message
of the quran but i don't care who should be the caliphate after the prophet.

Ok. Do not accept the order of your Prophet in Ghadir.

Is there a story which says that the quran was used by someone to do miracles, similar to the story of Solomon.

Holy Qur'an, 13:31
And if there was any qur'an by which the mountains would be removed or the earth would be broken apart or the dead would be made to speak, [it would be this Qur'an]

 

[use_your_brain]

Ok. Do not accept the order of your Prophet in Ghadir.



Holy Qur'an, 13:31
And if there was any qur'an by which the mountains would be removed or the earth would be broken apart or the dead would be made to speak, [it would be this Qur'an]

I or we accept what prophet said in Ghadir.

 

[mojtaba]

- You didn't answer why Ali also gave oath to Umar and Usman.

According to saying of Umar in Sahih Muslim, Imam Ali believed that Umar is a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.(Sahih Muslim, The Book of Jihad and Expeditions, Hadith 58)
So you ask me Ali gave oath to Umar?

- Then let us follow ahlul bait teaching if they taught the same thing with what the prophet taught.
- Is Mahdi greater than Asif? I don't know. Is that important? But at least Asif able to move the big throne by using a supernatural power, can the Mahdi do the same thing?
- I have also a knowledge of Book of Allah. Does that make me a great person?

According to Qur'an, Qur'an has an outside[these Arabic words] and an inside[which is indeed in Umm al-Kitab with Allah].

Chapter 43
We have made it an Arabic Quran so that you may exercise your reason, (3) and it is indeed sublime and wise with Us in the Mother Book. (4)

Also according to Qur'an, the inside of Qur'an is in a guarded Book and only the pure one can touch it.

Holy Qur'an, Chapter 56
This is indeed a noble Quran, (77) in a guarded Book (78) —no one touches it except the pure ones— (79)

Imam Mahdi has the knowledge of inside of Qur'an, which is in Umm al-Kitab with Allah. Because he is between Ahlul Bayt whom Allah Himself has purefied,

[33:33]Indeed Allah desires to repel all impurity from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.

 

[FearGod]

Ok. Do not accept the order of your Prophet in Ghadir.

That doesn't mean it's a pillar of Islam that we should follow in order to be a Muslim.
We believe in God , the Angels, Prophets, Day of Judgement and afterlife, Al-Qadar.
We believe in God and the last message by prophet Muhammed, we pray to God, we fast Ramadan,
we do the Zakat, we perform Hajj if we can.

Where's Ali?

Holy Qur'an, 13:31
And if there was any qur'an by which the mountains would be removed or the earth would be broken apart or the dead would be made to speak, [it would be this Qur'an]

Why you need to remove the other part of the verse ?!

And if there was any qur'an by which the mountains would be removed or the earth would be broken apart or the dead would be made to speak, [it would be this Qur'an], but to Allah belongs the affair entirely. Then have those who believed not accepted that had Allah willed, He would have guided the people, all of them? And those who disbelieve do not cease to be struck, for what they have done, by calamity - or it will descend near their home - until there comes the promise of Allah . Indeed, Allah does not fail in [His] promise.

It the verse says if the quran will move the mountain or to break the earth into pieces or to speak with
the dead, then all of the humans will believe, but God don't want us to believe in that way but he wants
to guide the ones he wishes.

 

[use_your_brain]

According to saying of Umar in Sahih Muslim, Imam Ali believed that Umar is a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.(Sahih Muslim, The Book of Jihad and Expeditions, Hadith 58)
So you ask me Ali gave oath to Umar?


According to Qur'an, Qur'an has an outside[these Arabic words] and an inside[which is indeed in Umm al-Kitab with Allah].

Chapter 43
We have made it an Arabic Quran so that you may exercise your reason, (3) and it is indeed sublime and wise with Us in the Mother Book. (4)

Also according to Qur'an, the inside of Qur'an is in a guarded Book and only the pure one can touch it.

Holy Qur'an, Chapter 56
This is indeed a noble Quran, (77) in a guarded Book (78) —no one touches it except the pure ones— (79)

Imam Mahdi has the knowledge of inside of Qur'an, which is in Umm al-Kitab with Allah. Because he is between Ahlul Bayt whom Allah Himself has purefied,

[33:33]Indeed Allah desires to repel all impurity from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.

Who says Ali didn't give an oath to Umar and Usman?
who says the mahdi has a knowledge of inside of Quran?