The Nation of Islam; Your thoughts on this

[muhammad_isa]

T
There are difference between the Ahl of Prophet Muhammad and the Ahl of other Prophets.

Yeah .. and there's a difference between kids and goats

You didn't answer my question about a descendant of Muhammad who is a disbeliever .. would they be 'special'?

The Jews say they are special because of their heritage.
I see no difference between your belief and theirs .. oh well!

 

[TashaN]

Are you saying that the Qur'an has been ordered wrongly? Why should the verse in question be as it is, even if parts of the verse were revealed in different times?



Oh yes .. you believe that 'ahle albayt' are somehow special/Divine..
Allah subhanuwat'ala says in Qur'an that He makes no distinction between any of the prophets.
That means that Jesus, Moses and Noah are men as is the prophet Muhammad (peace be with them)

So what about Noah's son who refused to believe? Is he somehow special? Would a disbelieving son in Muhammad's lineage be somehow special?

We should learn from the Christians what happens when we elevate human beings!!

Ask him if the uncle of the Prophet "Abi Talib" who refused to believe in Islam and in Mohamed before he die is in heaven or hell. We already know the answer because there is a hadith about him but let's see what kind of answer he will come up with now.

 

[TashaN]

Salam.
Please control yourself and be calm. We are not fighting with each other.

Don't worry, i'm absolutely calm.

I have answered to this question, see The Ahl Al-bayt, post #18 and The Ahl Al-bayt, post #24 and The Ahl Al-bayt, post #27

The part which is about Ahlul Bayt(peace be upon them)[i.e., Allah only desires to repel all impurity from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification] was revealed at a different time and is not about the wives of Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his Ahlul Bayt).

It's only one verse. Now you split the verse into two and claim it was revealed at different times just to fit ito your theory? do you have a proof of the split of this single verse?

I think you have not got the point,

A.Holy Qur'an, Chapter 43
We have made it an Arabic Quran so that you may exercise your reason, (3) and it is indeed sublime and wise with Us in the Mother Book. (4)

According to these two verses, Qur'an has an outside which is indeed these Arabic sentences, and also an inner which is indeed sublime and wise with Allah in the Mother Book.

B.Holy Qur'an, Chapter 56
This is indeed a noble Quran, (77) in a guarded Book (78) —no one touches it except the pure ones— (79)

Because Qur'an has two parts,i.e. outer and inner, so these verses have two meanings,
1. Only those who have the outside purity[ e.g., those who have Wodhu ] can touch the outside of Qur'an which is indeed the Arabic words on the papers.
2. Only those who have the inside purity[ the most complete examples are Ahlul Bayt, i.e. Prophet and his pure Progeny ] can touch the inside of Qur'an[ i.e., guarded Book ] which is with Allah in the Mother Book.


May Allah guide those whom stray from His way and...

Holy Quran[68:7] " Indeed your Lord knows best those who stray from His way, and He knows best those who are guided ".

Before it was an inner knowledge and now it's inner book? So Ahul Albait travel to Allah and touch this inner book?

Do you know where this will take you? it will take you to believe in an invisible Quran which regular Muslims can't read, so they need someone from ahul albait to travel to God and get some knowledge for them. So rather than believing in the message itself which is the Quran, you want to believe in the super power of other human beings who can get some hidden knowledge for you!!!

What is the point? really? for me i don't accept to bow down to mere human beings. I bow down to God the creator of everything. Believe in God, not in mere humans. Even if Prophet Mohamed was here, he would ask us to believe in the Quran, the word of God, not in hidden stuff.

The verse you quotred doesn't say there are two versions, it just says the Quran itself is with Allah in the mother of book. What is the mother of the book?

Quran doesn't has two versions but rather the Quran itself is written and guarded within another one. It's the very same Quran, not another Quran. Please read this verse to understand:
(21) But this is an honored Qur'an
(22) [Inscribed] in a Preserved Slate.
Quran (85:21-22)

What is the Preserved Slate?
It's, the place where the decrees of Allaah are kept, according to many tafseers. Read below please for a more detailed answer.
https://islamqa.info/en/7002

 

[TashaN]

The most authentic Sunni books, e.g. Sahih Muslim state, that part which is about Ahlul Bayt(peace be upon them) was revealed in different time and is not about the wives of Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure progeny and his good companions).

Which hadith? please post it here for us to see.

Also Qur'an itself proves this. Because the verses and parts which is about the wives of Prophet have the pronounce کن[which is for women] and the part which is about Ahlul Bayt has the pronounce کم which is for men or a group of men plus women, as I mentioned in the previous post of mine.

Anyway, all verses are in their correct places.
The verse which is for Ahlul Bayt is between the verses which are about the wives of Prophet because the wives would know that who were their examples. Indeed, their examples were Ahlul Bayt whom Allah himself has purified them with a thorough purification.
Maybe there are also other reasons which I do not know, Allahu 'A'lam.


There are difference between the Ahl of Prophet Muhammad and the Ahl of other Prophets. Allah only has desired to repel all impurity from the Ahlul Bayt of Prophet Muhammad, and purify them with a thorough purification, not the Ahl of other Prophets.

You mentined, "Jesus, Moses and Noah are men as is the prophet Muhammad, We should learn from the Christians what happens when we elevate human beings!!"

According to your saying, you are knower than Allah Ta'ala! Because He has not kept in mind what happened for the Christians, and said a very big thing about Prophet Adam,

Holy Qur'an, 17:61
And [mention] when We said to the angles, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He said, "Should I prostrate to one You created from clay?"

So, your sayin is not valid.

We as Shia do not believe in that Ahlul Bayt are God or other things such this.

Can a Muslim connect to God directly or he/she need to reach him through Ahl Albait?

 

[NewChapter]

Follow the order of your Prophet which he said in Ghadir Khom.


Is there any Book greater than Noble Qur'an?

Peace to you mojtaba,

Would it be OK to PM you about Islam?

Noah ("NewChapter")

 

[NewChapter]

You guys have gone well off topic, did anyone even answer the TS?

The NOI are not muslim, I'm still confused as to why they use the term "Islam" in their political agenda. Their belief system states that Fareed Muhammad was the human incarnation of Allah (astaghfurullah) and that Elijah Muhammad was his chosen messenger. Without even delving deeper into the acts carried out the NOI (drugs, alcohol, prostitution etc), this is a clear indication that these people commit shirk and preach lies. The NOI, as regarded by all educated Islamic scholars and councils, both sunni and shia, are not Muslims.

I hope that makes things clearer.

Thanks Tomorrows_Child,

Their founder was a man named Wallace Ford, but they refer to him as Wallace Fard Muhammad.

Here is a Youtube video I made about his prison mugshot for selling narcotics in 1926. The photo shows that he violated California's State Poison Act. And those intimately familiar with the Nation of Islam will recognize the "W.D." in the mugshot.

Here are three pics that prove that convict Wallace Ford and "W. Fard Muhammad" are the same man:

Pic 1: Side by side, Wallace Ford mugshot (left,) "W. Fard Muhammad" (right)

Pic 2: Full Wallace Ford mugshot

Pic 3: Various mugshots of Mr. Ford

 

[NewChapter]

Salaam noah

Welcome to Islam DIR. Nation of islam are a racist sect that aren't considered to be muslims because of their beliefs

- they belief that every black man is a incarnate of Allah and that white people are devils. They also belief that Allah came in a form of a man Fard Muhammad.

- they belief that the prophet muhammad phub wasnt the last prophet to fulfill the prophecy but that elijah muhammad was.

- they dont belief in the resurrection of humankind on the day of judgement.

These are just a few points I mentioned that contradict the basic teachings of Islam. People from the nation of islam who want to become muslim retake the testimony of faith because they werent upon islam in the first place.

Salaam Sakeenah

Actually they believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet...they say that Elijah Muhammad was a Messenger but that he was not a Prophet.

Peace & may God Bless you,
Noah

 

[mojtaba]

Peace to you mojtaba,

Would it be OK to PM you about Islam?

Noah ("NewChapter")

Peace to you.
Yes brother.
This is my pleasure.

 

[mojtaba]

Don't worry, i'm absolutely calm.

Salam.

Thanks God.

It's only one verse. Now you split the verse into two and claim it was revealed at different times just to fit ito your theory? do you have a proof of the split of this single verse?

I said, "that part which is about Ahlul Bayt was revealed in another time, not that verse."

Before it was an inner knowledge and now it's inner book? So Ahul Albait travel to Allah and touch this inner book?

Do you know where this will take you? it will take you to believe in an invisible Quran which regular Muslims can't read, so they need someone from ahul albait to travel to God and get some knowledge for them. So rather than believing in the message itself which is the Quran, you want to believe in the super power of other human beings who can get some hidden knowledge for you!!!

What is the point? really? for me i don't accept to bow down to mere human beings. I bow down to God the creator of everything. Believe in God, not in mere humans. Even if Prophet Mohamed was here, he would ask us to believe in the Quran, the word of God, not in hidden stuff.

The verse you quotred doesn't say there are two versions, it just says the Quran itself is with Allah in the mother of book. What is the mother of the book?

Quran doesn't has two versions but rather the Quran itself is written and guarded within another one. It's the very same Quran, not another Quran. Please read this verse to understand:
(21) But this is an honored Qur'an
(22) [Inscribed] in a Preserved Slate.
Quran (85:21-22)

What is the Preserved Slate?
It's, the place where the decrees of Allaah are kept, according to many tafseers. Read below please for a more detailed answer.
https://islamqa.info/en/7002

This site which you have linked is one of the weakest sites of Islam and is for Wahhabis Salafis, who believe that Allah Ta'ala has hands and feed! Sobhanallah, Glorify is Allah. See, http://islamqa.info/en/166843

Touching the inside of Qur'an which is about Ahlul Bayt is not phisycally, that is spritually. It is mentioned in Sahih Hadiths of Prophet that each verse of Qur'an has an outside and also an inside,

Prophet Muhammad, «أنزل القرآن علي سبعة احرف لكل آية منها ظهر و بطن»
' Qur'an has been revealed in seven words, each of its verses has an outside and an inside '.
Shu'ayb has said this Hadith is Hasan and authentic.
Source, Sahih ibn Haban, vol. 1, pg. 276

This Hadith is also in Musnad 'Abi Ya'la, vol. 9, pg. 81. Solaym 'Asad has said this Hadith is Sahih and authentic.

Also, Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure progeny and his good companions) has said that we must obey both Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt. If the knowledge of Ahlul Bayt(peace be upon them) about Qur'anic teachings is not certain and specific only to them, why did Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure Progeny and his good companions) say that we must obey Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt both with eachother to become guided?

I do not know, don't see Muslims this authentic and mutiwatir Hadith(Hadith Thaqalayn)?! Why do they reject the leadership of Ahlul Bayt?!

Prophet Muhammad, 'O people! Indeed, I have left among you, that which if you hold fast to it, you shall not go astray: The Book of Allah and my Itrah [my family], my Ahlul Byt[people of my house].'

Hadith is Sahih, authentic. See, http://sunnah.com/urn/736690

Also Prophet Muhammad has said that, «أنا مدينة العلم و علي بابها، فمن أراد العلم فليأتها من بابها»
"I am the city of the knowledge and Ali is the gate of this city, so whoever want to seek the knowledge and wisdome, must enter [to the city] from its gate."

Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani in his book, Lisanul Mizan, vol. 2, pg 122, and also Hakim in his book, al-Mustadrak 'AlasSahihayn(i.e., Sahih Muslim and Bukhari), vol. 3, pg. 127 and other Sunni imams of Hadiths have said that this Hadith is Sahih and authentic.

So for knowing the knowledge of Prophet(peace be upon him and his Ahlul Bayt), we must seek the knowledge from Imam Ali, who is one of the Ahlul Bayt. So we need the knowledge of Ahlul Bayt(peace be upon them).

WasSalamu 'Ala Man 'Ittaba'al Huda.

 

[TashaN]

Salam.

Thanks God.



I said, "that part which is about Ahlul Bayt was revealed in another time, not that verse."

Show us your proof please.

This site which you have linked is one of the weakest sites of Islam and is for Wahhabis Salafis, who believe that Allah Ta'ala has hands and feed! Sobhanallah, Glorify is Allah. See, http://islamqa.info/en/166843

So you say God doesn't have hands? who taught you that. See! that's why i asked you throughout this thread to read the Quran before reading anything else. Read below please:

The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth...... (Quran 5:64)

Verily those who plight their fealty to thee do no less than plight their fealty to Allah: the Hand of Allah is over their hands: then anyone who violates his oath, does so to the harm of his own soul, and anyone who fulfils what he has covenanted with Allah, Allah will soon grant him a great Reward. (Quran 48:10)

Touching the inside of Qur'an which is about Ahlul Bayt is not phisycally, that is spritually. It is mentioned in Sahih Hadiths of Prophet that each verse of Qur'an has an outside and also an inside,

Prophet Muhammad, «أنزل القرآن علي سبعة احرف لكل آية منها ظهر و بطن»
' Qur'an has been revealed in seven words, each of its verses has an outside and an inside '.
Shu'ayb has said this Hadith is Hasan and authentic.
Source, Sahih ibn Haban, vol. 1, pg. 276

This Hadith is also in Musnad 'Abi Ya'la, vol. 9, pg. 81. Solaym 'Asad has said this Hadith is Sahih and authentic.

Also, Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure progeny and his good companions) has said that we must obey both Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt. If the knowledge of Ahlul Bayt(peace be upon them) about Qur'anic teachings is not certain and specific only to them, why did Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him and his pure Progeny and his good companions) say that we must obey Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt both with eachother to become guided?

I do not know, don't see Muslims this authentic and mutiwatir Hadith(Hadith Thaqalayn)?! Why do they reject the leadership of Ahlul Bayt?!

Prophet Muhammad, 'O people! Indeed, I have left among you, that which if you hold fast to it, you shall not go astray: The Book of Allah and my Itrah [my family], my Ahlul Byt[people of my house].'

Hadith is Sahih, authentic. See, http://sunnah.com/urn/736690

Also Prophet Muhammad has said that, «أنا مدينة العلم و علي بابها، فمن أراد العلم فليأتها من بابها»
"I am the city of the knowledge and Ali is the gate of this city, so whoever want to seek the knowledge and wisdome, must enter [to the city] from its gate."

Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani in his book, Lisanul Mizan, vol. 2, pg 122, and also Hakim in his book, al-Mustadrak 'AlasSahihayn(i.e., Sahih Muslim and Bukhari), vol. 3, pg. 127 and other Sunni imams of Hadiths have said that this Hadith is Sahih and authentic.

So for knowing the knowledge of Prophet(peace be upon him and his Ahlul Bayt), we must seek the knowledge from Imam Ali, who is one of the Ahlul Bayt. So we need the knowledge of Ahlul Bayt(peace be upon them).

WasSalamu 'Ala Man 'Ittaba'al Huda.

One question, what did the Quran say about the situation when one doesn't know something in Islam and want to know the answer. What is the solution that Allah has provided in the Quran for that? Did the Quran say go to the nearest Ahl AlBait whether he was a Muslim or Kafir, a scholar or misguided, or the Quran has provided something else?

Waiting for your answer. Thank you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth...... (Quran 5:64)

Hmm .. Allah ta'ala is spiritual and these 'hands' that are mentioned in Qur'an are not physical hands .. or do you think they are?

 

[mojtaba]

Which hadith? please post it here for us to see.

1.Sahih Muslim, English reference : Book 31, Hadith 5955:

' A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (sawaws) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair, then came Husayn and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Imam Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came Ali and he also took him under it and then said:
" Allah only desires to repel all impurity from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.( holy Quran, Sura Al-Ahzab, verse 33 )"

2.Sahih Muslim, USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 31, Hadith 5923

Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error [and the other is my Ahlul Bayt], and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household(Ahlul Bayt)? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his household(Ahlul Bayt)?
Thereupon he said: No, by Allah."

So because the wives of Prophet Muhammad were not between Ahlul Bayt, that part of the verse 33 of Chapter 3 which is about Ahlul Bayt and is between the other verses which are about the wives of Rasulallah, is not relative to the other verses and has been revealed separately.

3.Jami' at-Tirmidhi, English reference : Vol. 5, Book 44, Hadith 3205

Narrated 'Umar bin Abi Salamah - the step-son of the Prophet (S):
"When these Ayat were revealed to the Prophet (S): 'Allah only wishes to remove the Rijs from you, O Ahlul Bayt, and to purify you with a thorough purification' (33:33) in the home of Umm Salamah, he called for Fatimah, Hasan, Husain, and wrapped him in the cloak, then he said: 'O Allah! These are my Ahlul Byt [the people of my house], so remove the Rijs from them, and purify them with a thorough purification.' So Umm Salamah said: 'And am I with them O Messenger of Allah?' He said: 'You are in your place [as my wife, not my Ahlul Bayt], and you are upon good.'"

Grade of this Hadith is Sahih and then it is authentic. See, http://sunnah.com/urn/736700

So that part of the verse 33:3 has been revealed only for special members of the family of Prophet and is only about Ahlul Bayt. Also, according to this part of the tradition,i.e. "When these Ayat were revealed to the Prophet (S): 'Allah only wishes to repel the Rijs from you, O Ahlul Bayt, and to purify you with a thorough purification' in the home of Umm Salamah, he called for Fatimah, Hasan, Husain, and wrapped him in the cloak, then he said: 'O Allah! These are my Ahlul Byt ",
This part of the verse has been revealed sepratly and is not about the wives of the Prophet.

Can a Muslim connect to God directly or he/she need to reach him through Ahl Albait?

1.Holy Qur'an, 5:35
O you who have faith! Be wary of Allah, and seek the means to Him, and wage jihad in His way, so that you may be felicitous.

So, we need some means to Allah. Good doings are examples of these means. Also there are other examples,

2. Holy Qur'an, 25:57
Say[O Muhammad], ‘I do not ask you any reward for it[ i.e., my Risalah ], except that anyone who wishes should take the way to his Lord.’

So, paying the rewrad of Prophet, is another way to Allah.

But what is our reward for the Risalah of Prophet to him?
Holy Qur'an, 42:23
Such is the good news that Allah gives to His servants who have faith and do righteous deeds! Say[O Muhammad], ‘I do not ask you any reward for it except the love of [my] relatives.’

According to Hadiths and saying of greatest Sunni Mufaseers, the relatives of Prophet are his Ahlul Bayt,
Zamakhshari in his Tafseer i.e. Kashshaf has said a Hadith and said also this verse is only for Ahlul Bayt.(Al-Kashshaf, vol. 4, pg. 220)

It has been narrated in Sunni books that Imam Hasan after the martirdom of Imam Ali, declared a Khotbah in which he(peace be upon him) said,
Source, Majma'uz Zawa'id, 9/146

وَ أَنَا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْبَيْتِ الَّذِينَ أَذْهَبَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمُ الرِّجْسَ وَ طَهَّرَهُمْ تَطْهِيراً وَ أَنَا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْبَيْتِ الَّذِينَ افْتَرَضَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى وَلَايَتَهُمْ وَ مَوَدَّتَهُمْ فَقَالَ فِيمَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ قُلْ لا أَسْئَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْراً إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبى​

And I am from Ahlul Bayt those whom Allah has repeled all impurity from them and purified them with a thorough purification. And I am between the Ahlul Bayt those whom Allah Ta'ala has obligated their leadership and love. For us has revealed to Muhammad(peace be upon him and his Ahlul Bayt) that, "Say[O Muhammad], ‘I do not ask you any reward for it except the love of [my] relatives."

The author of the book, ie al-Haythami, after narration of this tradition say,

وإسناد أحمد ، وبعض طرق البزار ، والطبراني في الكبير ، حسان​

The chain of the narration of 'Ahmad, and some of the routs of the narrators of the al-Bazzaz and al-Tabarani in al-Kabir are Hasan[ie,authentic].
See here.

So one the ways to Allah, is the loving of Ahlul Bayt.

 

[mojtaba]

Show us your proof please.

See the previous Post of mine.

So you say God doesn't have hands? who taught you that. See! that's why i asked you throughout this thread to read the Quran before reading anything else. Read below please:

The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth...... (Quran 5:64)

Verily those who plight their fealty to thee do no less than plight their fealty to Allah: the Hand of Allah is over their hands: then anyone who violates his oath, does so to the harm of his own soul, and anyone who fulfils what he has covenanted with Allah, Allah will soon grant him a great Reward. (Quran 48:10)

Brother, do you think only you read Qur'an and I do not know the verses which you have mentioned?
No. I know the verses but they do not mean that Allah Ta'ala Jaddohu has hands or feet!

Those verses are Mutishabih(metaphorical, ambigious) and should be refered to Muhkam[clear, define] ones and be interpreted by them.

Allah Ta'ala says, "Nothing is like Him, and He is the Allhearing, the All-seeing."[42:11]
If Allah has hands and feet, so we become like him. Because we have hands and feet. Right?
Because nothing is like Him, so Allah has not hands and feet.

So, those verses from which we could wrongly understand that He has hands, should be interpreted.

1.The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth...... (Quran 5:64)

The term"Hands" in this verse, means grace and power. So the verse says that Allah is powerful and merciful and then He gives whatever he wants to whomever He Himself wishes.

If you say that Allah has hands, so you are proving that we like Allah have hands. But the verse 42:11 says Nothing is like Allah. So, Allah hasn't hands or feet.

2.The next verse which you have mentioned is also Mutishabih.
Indeed, in the time of Prophet, when a group of Arabs were going to give an oath to each other, they put their hands on each other and then gave the oath.
Prophet Muhammad was the Caliph of Allah on the earth and the verse says that the hand of Prophet Muhammad was over the hands of others who were giong to give an oath to the Prophet, so as if the hand of Allah(meaning the hand of Prophet) was over their hands.

One question, what did the Quran say about the situation when one doesn't know something in Islam and want to know the answer. What is the solution that Allah has provided in the Quran for that? Did the Quran say go to the nearest Ahl AlBait whether he was a Muslim or Kafir, a scholar or misguided, or the Quran has provided something else?
Waiting for your answer. Thank you.

Is your question that if one of the Ah al-Bayt are Muslim or Kafir....? Supposing one of them is Kafir?
Please calrify your question.

When I say Ahlul Bayt, I mean only 12 Caliphs/Imams from Imam Ali to Imam Mahdi, and also Hazrat Fatima.

 

[mojtaba]

Yeah .. and there's a difference between kids and goats

You didn't answer my question about a descendant of Muhammad who is a disbeliever .. would they be 'special'?

The Jews say they are special because of their heritage.
I see no difference between your belief and theirs .. oh well!

All descendants of Prophet Muhammad are not between Ahlul Bayt.Only 12 Caliphs/Imams and Hazrat Fatima(peace be upon them) from the descendants of Prophet Muhammaf are between Alul Bayt whom Allah has purified them with a through purification.

You said, "The Jews say they are special because of their heritage. I see no difference between your belief and theirs .. oh well!"

I know this saying of your is the Propaganda of Wahhabi scholars against Shia. What is indeed an slander. My brother I love you and advise you that do not hear their wrong sayings. They say very lies in their TV chanels against Shia.

Allah has said,
Indeed Allah chose Adam and Noah, and the progeny of Abraham and the progeny of Imran above all the nations;

So has Allah the beliefs of Jews?

Also Prophet Muhammad has said, إن مثل أهل بيتي کمثل سفينة نوح من رکبها نجا و من تخلف عنها هلک

The example of my Ahlul Bayt is like the example of the boat of the Noah. Whoever boards it will be saved and whoever disobeys will be destroyed.

Hakim says this Hadith is Sahih, according to the oponions of Muslim[هذا حديث صحيح علي شرط مسلم]. Also Haythami has said that this Hadith has very chains of the narrators that strong each other[و جاء من طرق کثيرة يقوي بعضها بعضا].
Sources: Al-Mustadrak 'Alas-Sahihayn, vol. 2, pg. 343/ Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhrighah by ibn Hajar al-Maythami, vol. 2, pg. 675.

So, did Prophet Muhammad have the beliefs of Jews?
Sobhanallah.

 

[mojtaba]

Ask him if the uncle of the Prophet "Abi Talib" who refused to believe in Islam and in Mohamed before he die is in heaven or hell. We already know the answer because there is a hadith about him but let's see what kind of answer he will come up with now.

Abu Talib(peace be upon him) was Muslim. See, [URL="http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/was-abu-talib-a-muslim.179785/"]Was Abu Talib a Muslim?[/URL]

 

[muhammad_isa]

You said, "The Jews say they are special because of their heritage. I see no difference between your belief and theirs .. oh well!"

I know this saying of your is the Propaganda of Wahhabi scholars against Shia. What is indeed an slander. My brother I love you and advise you that do not hear their wrong sayings. They say very lies in their TV chanels against Shia.

I do not watch any Islamic TV channels .. I do not worship any Islamic scholars. I'm a Christian convert, and I do not like it when people claim that Almighty God favours 'chosen people' because of heritage.

Almighty God chooses whomsoever He wills. His guidance is for the whole of mankind, and we should be "holding the rope of Allah" together, and not forming groups and killing each other.
Particularly in the name of religion!

So, did Prophet Muhammad have the beliefs of Jews?
Sobhanallah.

I'm sorry? What do you mean by this?
Are you are asking me whether I think the Prophet Muhammad, peace be with him, believes in the superiority of people due to their 'royal blood' over piety? .. the answer would be NO!!

 

[TashaN]

Hmm .. Allah ta'ala is spiritual and these 'hands' that are mentioned in Qur'an are not physical hands .. or do you think they are?

I only know what the verses says without any further details.

Now, how about you? how do you know what type of hands he has? did God tell you about this or you are guessing?

 

[TashaN]

1.Sahih Muslim, English reference : Book 31, Hadith 5955:

' A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle (sawaws) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair, then came Husayn and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Imam Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came Ali and he also took him under it and then said:
" Allah only desires to repel all impurity from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.( holy Quran, Sura Al-Ahzab, verse 33 )"

2.Sahih Muslim, USC-MSA web (English) reference: Book 31, Hadith 5923

Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error [and the other is my Ahlul Bayt], and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household(Ahlul Bayt)? Aren't the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his household(Ahlul Bayt)?
Thereupon he said: No, by Allah."

So because the wives of Prophet Muhammad were not between Ahlul Bayt, that part of the verse 33 of Chapter 3 which is about Ahlul Bayt and is between the other verses which are about the wives of Rasulallah, is not relative to the other verses and has been revealed separately.

3.Jami' at-Tirmidhi, English reference : Vol. 5, Book 44, Hadith 3205

Narrated 'Umar bin Abi Salamah - the step-son of the Prophet (S):
"When these Ayat were revealed to the Prophet (S): 'Allah only wishes to remove the Rijs from you, O Ahlul Bayt, and to purify you with a thorough purification' (33:33) in the home of Umm Salamah, he called for Fatimah, Hasan, Husain, and wrapped him in the cloak, then he said: 'O Allah! These are my Ahlul Byt [the people of my house], so remove the Rijs from them, and purify them with a thorough purification.' So Umm Salamah said: 'And am I with them O Messenger of Allah?' He said: 'You are in your place [as my wife, not my Ahlul Bayt], and you are upon good.'"

Grade of this Hadith is Sahih and then it is authentic. See, http://sunnah.com/urn/736700

So that part of the verse 33:3 has been revealed only for special members of the family of Prophet and is only about Ahlul Bayt. Also, according to this part of the tradition,i.e. "When these Ayat were revealed to the Prophet (S): 'Allah only wishes to repel the Rijs from you, O Ahlul Bayt, and to purify you with a thorough purification' in the home of Umm Salamah, he called for Fatimah, Hasan, Husain, and wrapped him in the cloak, then he said: 'O Allah! These are my Ahlul Byt ",
This part of the verse has been revealed sepratly and is not about the wives of the Prophet.

There are many wrong information here but let us now focus on one thing, you are still imposing your own interpretations and conclusions as i can see. You have to show us where does it say that part of the verse was revealed separately, not who is ahl albair and who isn't.

1.Holy Qur'an, 5:35
O you who have faith! Be wary of Allah, and seek the means to Him, and wage jihad in His way, so that you may be felicitous.

So, we need some means to Allah. Good doings are examples of these means. Also there are other examples,

2. Holy Qur'an, 25:57
Say[O Muhammad], ‘I do not ask you any reward for it[ i.e., my Risalah ], except that anyone who wishes should take the way to his Lord.’

So, paying the rewrad of Prophet, is another way to Allah.

But what is our reward for the Risalah of Prophet to him?
Holy Qur'an, 42:23
Such is the good news that Allah gives to His servants who have faith and do righteous deeds! Say[O Muhammad], ‘I do not ask you any reward for it except the love of [my] relatives.’

According to Hadiths and saying of greatest Sunni Mufaseers, the relatives of Prophet are his Ahlul Bayt,
Zamakhshari in his Tafseer i.e. Kashshaf has said a Hadith and said also this verse is only for Ahlul Bayt.(Al-Kashshaf, vol. 4, pg. 220)

It has been narrated in Sunni books that Imam Hasan after the martirdom of Imam Ali, declared a Khotbah in which he(peace be upon him) said,
Source, Majma'uz Zawa'id, 9/146

وَ أَنَا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْبَيْتِ الَّذِينَ أَذْهَبَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمُ الرِّجْسَ وَ طَهَّرَهُمْ تَطْهِيراً وَ أَنَا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْبَيْتِ الَّذِينَ افْتَرَضَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى وَلَايَتَهُمْ وَ مَوَدَّتَهُمْ فَقَالَ فِيمَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَى مُحَمَّدٍ قُلْ لا أَسْئَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْراً إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبى​

And I am from Ahlul Bayt those whom Allah has repeled all impurity from them and purified them with a thorough purification. And I am between the Ahlul Bayt those whom Allah Ta'ala has obligated their leadership and love. For us has revealed to Muhammad(peace be upon him and his Ahlul Bayt) that, "Say[O Muhammad], ‘I do not ask you any reward for it except the love of [my] relatives."

The author of the book, ie al-Haythami, after narration of this tradition say,

وإسناد أحمد ، وبعض طرق البزار ، والطبراني في الكبير ، حسان​

The chain of the narration of 'Ahmad, and some of the routs of the narrators of the al-Bazzaz and al-Tabarani in al-Kabir are Hasan[ie,authentic].
See here.

So one the ways to Allah, is the loving of Ahlul Bayt.

That doesn't answer my question. I'm not talking about the love of Ahul albait because that's common sense. I asked, can we reach to God directly or we can only reach him through ahul albait?

Thank you.

 

[TashaN]

See the previous Post of mine.


Brother, do you think only you read Qur'an and I do not know the verses which you have mentioned?
No. I know the verses but they do not mean that Allah Ta'ala Jaddohu has hands or feet!

Those verses are Mutishabih(metaphorical, ambigious) and should be refered to Muhkam[clear, define] ones and be interpreted by them.

Allah Ta'ala says, "Nothing is like Him, and He is the Allhearing, the All-seeing."[42:11]
If Allah has hands and feet, so we become like him. Because we have hands and feet. Right?
Because nothing is like Him, so Allah has not hands and feet.

So, those verses from which we could wrongly understand that He has hands, should be interpreted.

1.The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth...... (Quran 5:64)

The term"Hands" in this verse, means grace and power. So the verse says that Allah is powerful and merciful and then He gives whatever he wants to whomever He Himself wishes.

If you say that Allah has hands, so you are proving that we like Allah have hands. But the verse 42:11 says Nothing is like Allah. So, Allah hasn't hands or feet.

2.The next verse which you have mentioned is also Mutishabih.
Indeed, in the time of Prophet, when a group of Arabs were going to give an oath to each other, they put their hands on each other and then gave the oath.
Prophet Muhammad was the Caliph of Allah on the earth and the verse says that the hand of Prophet Muhammad was over the hands of others who were giong to give an oath to the Prophet, so as if the hand of Allah(meaning the hand of Prophet) was over their hands.

Allah says he has hands and you say he doesn't? if it is mutashabihat why do you go and interpret them? leave it as it is, as how Allah revealed them and don't impose your theory into it.

Is your question that if one of the Ah al-Bayt are Muslim or Kafir....? Supposing one of them is Kafir?
Please calrify your question.

When I say Ahlul Bayt, I mean only 12 Caliphs/Imams from Imam Ali to Imam Mahdi, and also Hazrat Fatima.

Oh, so to you ahul albait are only 12? so Prophet Mohamed has only 12 relatives through all these 1400 years?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I only know what the verses says without any further details.

Now, how about you? how do you know what type of hands he has? did God tell you about this or you are guessing?

Almighty God has not directly spoken to me
I'm just a simple human being that tries to use their intellect that God has given us..

Almighty God is spiritual .. He is not part of the physical universe, so we need to understand these things in context.

When it comes to Almighty God's physical form, we cannot comprehend. Language is an important form of communication. It contains all sorts of metaphors as well as literal constructs.

eg. the Qur'an literally says that "the sun set in a muddy spring"
Does that mean that the sun orbits round the earth? Of course not, it's just how we put sentences together.

Saying "My hands are outstretched with provision for my family" surely doesn't mean that I'm throwing things at them