The Nation of Islam; Your thoughts on this

[mojtaba]

Salam bro.

Do you know Arabic very well?

Salamun Alayka wa Rahmatullah brother.

Alhamdulillah, my reading, listening and understanding of only religious Arabic text or lecturs is good. Thanks God.

In Iran, because the language of our religion is Arabic, we learn it in the school.

Waffaqakallah.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Salamun Alayka wa Rahmatullah brother.

Alhamdulillah, my reading, listening and understanding of only religious Arabic text or lecturs is good. Thanks God.

In Iran, because the language of our religion is Arabic, we learn it in the school.

Waffaqakallah.

That really good to know.

I asked you that because I honestly don't see the Hadeeths you provided say that The Imam Al-Mahdi has supernatural powers. It does tell tho that there are what's called Karama كرامة that God will surround him with instead of giving him the power to do them directly.

But I guess this depends on different interpretations of Hadeeth, which I respect.

 

[use_your_brain]

Well.
Mahdi is between Ahlul Bayt

«قال رسول الله صل الله علیه و آله و سلم: «الْمَهْدِيُّ مِنْ عِتْرَتِي مِنْ وَلَدِ فَاطِمَة​

The Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny) said: The Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatimah. Hadith is Sahih
-Sunan Abi Dawud, Kitab Al-Mahdi, Hadith 6[Sahih Hadith]

Prophet Muhammad also has said that we should obey his Ahlul Bayt(See Hadith al-Thaqalayn). Imam Ali is between Ahlul Bayt[Hadith Kisa], Because Mahdi is also between Ahlul Bayt, so the ff Hadith which is about Imam Ali agrees also for him,

"The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) called 'Ali on the Day (of the battle) of At-Ta'if, and spoke privately with him, so the people said: 'His private conversation with his cousin has grown lengthy.' So the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said: 'I did not speak privately with him, rather Allah spoke privately with him.'"
(Tirmidhi, the author of the book says: Abu 'Isa said: This hadith is Hasan)
Jami` at-Tirmidhi, Book 49, Hadith 4092.

Also according to Qur'an and Hadith, Ahlul Bayt are infallible,
[33:33]Indeed Allah desires to repel all impurity from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.

A normal man is not infallible.

Good luck brother.

what does it mean? all suniies believe the mahdi will come from the descendant of the prophet.

 

[mojtaba]

That really good to know.

I asked you that because I honestly don't see the Hadeeths you provided say that The Imam Al-Mahdi has supernatural powers. It does tell tho that there are what's called Karama كرامة that God will surround him with instead of giving him the power to do them directly.

But I guess this depends on different interpretations of Hadeeth, which I respect.

Yes. We instead of using Mu'jizah(المعجزة) for Imams, use Kiramah, as you mentioned.

Anyway, Kiramah or Mu'jizah are not dirrectly done by Prophets or Imams. All of them do it by power of Allah.لاحول و لا قوة الا بالله

If Allah does not will that a Mu'jizah or Kiramah occurs, the Prophet or Imam can not do it.
Jesus said,
3:49
I will create for you out of clay as the likeness of a bird; then I will breathe into it, and it will be a bird, by the leave of God. I will also heal the blind and the leper, and bring to life the dead, by the leave of God.

If a prophet did a Mu'jizah, this does not mean he did it directly. Only Allah can do His doings directly, but others by Allah's leave.
Allah said to Prophet Muhammad to say,

7:188Say: 'I have no power to profit for myself; or hurt, but as God will. Had I knowledge of the Unseen I would have acquired much good, and evil would not have touched me. I am only a warner, and a bearer of good tidings, to a people believing.'

Salams.

 

[mojtaba]

what does it mean? all suniies believe the mahdi will come from the descendant of the prophet.

[33:33]Indeed Allah desires to repel all impurity from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.

A normal man is not infallible.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Yes. We instead of using Mu'jizah(المعجزة) for Imams, use Kiramah, as you mentioned.

Anyway, Kiramah or Mu'jizah are not dirrectly done by Prophets or Imams. All of them do it by power of Allah.لاحول و لا قوة الا بالله

If Allah does not will that a Mu'jizah or Kiramah occurs, the Prophet or Imam can not do it.
Jesus said,
3:49
I will create for you out of clay as the likeness of a bird; then I will breathe into it, and it will be a bird, by the leave of God. I will also heal the blind and the leper, and bring to life the dead, by the leave of God.

If a prophet did a Mu'jizah, this does not mean he did it directly. Only Allah can do His doings directly, but others by Allah's leave.
Allah said to Prophet Muhammad to say,

7:188Say: 'I have no power to profit for myself; or hurt, but as God will. Had I knowledge of the Unseen I would have acquired much good, and evil would not have touched me. I am only a warner, and a bearer of good tidings, to a people believing.'

Salams.

And I respect your views

 

[use_your_brain]

[33:33]Indeed Allah desires to repel all impurity from you, O Ahl al-Bayt, and purify you with a thorough purification.

A normal man is not infallible.

does that mean he belongs to the supernatural power? husein got killed, so did Ali.

 

[FearGod]

Yes. We instead of using Mu'jizah(المعجزة) for Imams, use Kiramah, as you mentioned.

Anyway, Kiramah or Mu'jizah are not dirrectly done by Prophets or Imams. All of them do it by power of Allah.لاحول و لا قوة الا بالله

If Allah does not will that a Mu'jizah or Kiramah occurs, the Prophet or Imam can not do it.
Jesus said,
3:49
I will create for you out of clay as the likeness of a bird; then I will breathe into it, and it will be a bird, by the leave of God. I will also heal the blind and the leper, and bring to life the dead, by the leave of God.

If a prophet did a Mu'jizah, this does not mean he did it directly. Only Allah can do His doings directly, but others by Allah's leave.
Allah said to Prophet Muhammad to say,

7:188Say: 'I have no power to profit for myself; or hurt, but as God will. Had I knowledge of the Unseen I would have acquired much good, and evil would not have touched me. I am only a warner, and a bearer of good tidings, to a people believing.'

Salams.

We believe the true prophets and their messages, was Ali a prophet and has
he another message than Islam.

 

[Smart_Guy]

A friendly reminder:

This is a DIR and it is against the rules to debate in DIR's. All those belong to a DIR are entitled to state their views freely without debating.

 

[mojtaba]

We believe the true prophets and their messages,
was Ali a prophet and has
he another message than Islam.

Ali(peace be upon him) was Imam, not a prophet with another messege. According to the order of Prophet in Ghadir Khom[and also other Hadiths], he was the first Caliph of Allah's Messenger. Generally, according to Hadith al-Thaqalayn, we must follow Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt[who know the true Sunnah of Prophet] both together.

 

[mojtaba]

does that mean he belongs to the supernatural power? husein got killed, so did Ali.

'Ismah[ Infallibility ] is a supernatural power which normal mans do not have.

 

[muhammad_isa]

'Ismah[ Infallibility ] is a supernatural power which normal mans do not have.

Can you tell us more about this, please?
I was under the impression that only Alah Ta'alla was infallable. A man is a man by definition, and subject to sin, be it knowingly or unknowingly.

I also understand that the prophets were men and not some sort of "hybrid" creatures.
I was also under the impression that there is no difference between the prophets of Allah in this respect ..

 

[use_your_brain]

'Ismah[ Infallibility ] is a supernatural power which normal mans do not have.

what can he do to begin with?

 

[use_your_brain]

Ali(peace be upon him) was Imam, not a prophet with another messege. According to the order of Prophet in Ghadir Khom[and also other Hadiths], he was the first Caliph of Allah's Messenger. Generally, according to Hadith al-Thaqalayn, we must follow Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt[who know the true Sunnah of Prophet] both together.

- Then why didn't Ali become a first Khalifah? Moreover, why did he propose a baiyat to Abu Bakar, Umar and Usman?
- How to follow Ahlul Bait? Did they bring another different teaching of Islam?

 

[mojtaba]

Can you tell us more about this, please?
I was under the impression that only Alah Ta'alla was infallable. A man is a man by definition, and subject to sin, be it knowingly or unknowingly.

I also understand that the prophets were men and not some sort of "hybrid" creatures.
I was also under the impression that there is no difference between the prophets of Allah in this respect ..

Salam brother Muhammad-Isa.

Allah is intrinsically infallible. Others by will of Allah are infallible.

Prophets are Mukhlas,

[38:46]Indeed We purified['Akhlasna] them[Ibrahim, Isma'il and Ya'qub] with exclusive remembrance of the abode
[12:24] He[Yusof] was indeed one of Our Mukhlas servants.
[19:51]And mention in the Book Moses. Indeed he was exclusively dedicated [to Allah](Mukhlas), and an apostle and prophet.

[38:82,83]
He[Satan] said, ‘By Your might, I will surely pervert them,
except Your exclusive servants[Mukhlasin] among them.’

 

[NewChapter]

Islam is defeating the whole society. My thoughts on this.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by, "Islam is defeating the whole society?"

Peace to you,
Noah

 

[mojtaba]

what can he do to begin with?

Is Imam Mahdi lower than 'Asiph Barkhia[ 'Asif Barkhiya ], who was the minister of Prophet Solomon?

Holy Qur'an, 27:40
He said, ‘O [members of the] elite! Which of you will bring me her throne[ of the ruler of Sheba ] before they come to me in submission?’
The one who had knowledge of the Book['Asif Barkhiya] said, ‘I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye.’ So when he saw it set near him, he[Solomon] said, ‘This is by the grace of my Lord, to test me if I will give thanks or be ungrateful. Whoever gives thanks, gives thanks only for his own sake. And whoever is ungrateful [should know that] my Lord is indeed all-sufficient, all-generous.’

According to Hadiths, Prophet Jesus will pray Salas al-Jama'ah behind Imam Mahdi and Imam Mahdi will be Imam al-Jama'ah(Sahih Muslim, v1, p137). So, you think Imam Mahdi is lower than 'Asif, the minister of Prophet Solomon?

 

[FearGod]

Is Imam Mahdi lower than 'Asiph Barkhia[ 'Asif Barkhiya ], who was the minister of Prophet Solomon?

Holy Qur'an, 27:40
He said, ‘O [members of the] elite! Which of you will bring me her throne[ of the ruler of Sheba ] before they come to me in submission?’
The one who had knowledge of the Book['Asif Barkhiya] said, ‘I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye.’ So when he saw it set near him, he[Solomon] said, ‘This is by the grace of my Lord, to test me if I will give thanks or be ungrateful. Whoever gives thanks, gives thanks only for his own sake. And whoever is ungrateful [should know that] my Lord is indeed all-sufficient, all-generous.’

According to Hadiths, Prophet Jesus will pray Salas al-Jama'ah behind Imam Mahdi and Imam Mahdi will be Imam al-Jama'ah(Sahih Muslim, v1, p137). So, you think Imam Mahdi is lower than 'Asif, the minister of Prophet Solomon?

The one who had knowledge of the Book,.....
Which book?

 

[FearGod]

Ali(peace be upon him) was Imam, not a prophet with another messege. According to the order of Prophet in Ghadir Khom[and also other Hadiths], he was the first Caliph of Allah's Messenger. Generally, according to Hadith al-Thaqalayn, we must follow Qur'an and Ahlul Bayt[who know the true Sunnah of Prophet] both together.

If there's no new religion, and the message still is Islam, so what it's all about.
Do we need to believe in Ali to be Muslims or just to believe the messengers and their messages
which is Islam.

Is Ali one of the five pillars of Islam.

 

[mojtaba]

Then why didn't Ali become a first Khalifah?

The Right of Khilafah was only for Imam Ali. But others disobeyed Prophet Muhammad. This disobeying is not surprising, they disobeyed Prophet very times. For example,

When Allah's Messenger (s) was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was `Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet (s) said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray".
Umar said, " Indeed illness has overcomed the Prophet ( so He does not know what He says! ) and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us".* The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Messenger (S) may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while some of them said what `Umar said. When they made much noise and differed greatly before the Prophet, He( Prophet ) said to them, "Go away and leave me". Ibn `Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their difference and noise prevented Allah's Messenger (S) from writing that writing for them.

-Sahih al-Bukhari , Book 96, Hadith 93

* Holy Qur'an, 53:1-5
By the star when it sets: (1) your companion( Prophet Muhammad ) has neither gone astray, nor amiss. (2) Nor does he speak out of [his own] desire: (3) it is just a revelation that is revealed [to him], (4) taught him by one of great powers, (5)

Moreover, why did he propose a baiyat to Abu Bakar, Umar and Usman?

According to shia belief, Imam Ali never gave the oath of allegiance to them.

But according to your belief, Imam Ali until martyrdom of Hadhrat Fatimah, i.e., 6 months after demise of Prophet, did not give the oath of allegiance to Abubakr.

Umar narrated,
the Ansar disagreed with us and gathered in the shed of Bani Sa`da. `Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us.
(Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 86, Hadith 57)

So she[Hadhrat Fatimah, the daughter of Prophet Muhammad ] became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband `Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself........ `Ali had not given the oath of allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death).
(Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 64, Hadith 278)

- How to follow Ahlul Bait? Did they bring another different teaching of Islam?

Their teachings are the teachings of Qur'an and Prophet.

The Messenger of Allah declared in Ghadir Khom:
"It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere to them both, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my Progeny, that is my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."
(Al-Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim al-Naysaburi, vol. 3, p. 109.)