The NATO

[Aupmanyav]

That would obviously be terrible. I fail to see how it would be NATO's fault, though.
A perhaps stronger argument can be made that it has no good reason to avoid it and, in fact, may indeed have a moral obligation to ease them into membership if they are willing.
NATO is, after all, a defensive alliance - and one of the main among very few effective challenges to Russian imperialism and militarism.

I know, unless you remove your filters.
Same for your second statement. Divide the world into Axis and Allies, and watch the fun.
The question is whether they needed to expand into CIS? You are encouraging American imperialism and militarism.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I am with humanity, that is why I want resolution of the conflict and not continuation of the war.

But how do you square this when dealing with a country determined to continue in a war in order to annex territory? Are you willing to just allow them to take land from a neighbouring country in order to avoid war? Is your desire for peace so great that it overrides your desire for justice and freedom for the Ukrainian people? Are you willing to throw them under the bus because you fear war that much?

What is NATO trying for? Subjugation of Russia through destruction of Ukraine?

Subjugation of Russia??

Do you seriously believe that not allowing a country to invade its neighbours is "subjugation" of that country?

You are treating Ukraine as if it's not it's own sovereign entity, as if it's people are empty-headed pawns in an elaborate game that is really being played between Russia and NATO. But the Ukranian people emphatically do not want Russia invading their land - they are fighting to push Russia back. NATO is not forcing them to do this - they are HELPING them to do what they are doing.

NATO did not force this war. Russia did. It wasn't NATO's decision to fight back. The Ukrainians did.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I know, unless you remove your filters.
Same for your second statement. Divide the world into Axis and Allies, and watch the fun.
The question is whether they needed to expand into CIS? You are encouraging American imperialism and militarism.

How is it encouraging American imperialism and militarism for NATO to assist Ukraine?

Once again, you are treating Ukraine like an empty plot of land filled with puppets. Ukraine is a sovereign state fighting for its existence against an invading country. The people of Ukraine unilaterally oppose Russian occupation. They are fighting against Russian imperialism; NATO and America are assisting them.

Is America doing this purely out of the kindness of its heart? Of course not. This is geopolitics. America is most likely involved because it is in their interest to ensure Ukraine remains under democratic control and amenable to the west rather than under Russian control and amenable to Russian and Chinese interests. But it just so happens that, in this instance, this interest happens to overlap with what is actually morally correct and politically globally beneficial; that Russian imperialism be opposed, the sovereign state of Ukraine remains independent and democratic, and that the people of Ukraine not be subject to Russian control and war crimes.

This bizarre, "thing bad because America is involved" attitude is baffling. America and NATO are undeniably in the right on this one.

 

[Heyo]

You are treating Ukraine as if it's not it's own sovereign entity, as if it's people are empty-headed pawns in an elaborate game that is really being played between Russia and NATO. But the Ukranian people emphatically do not want Russia invading their land - they are fighting to push Russia back. NATO is not forcing them to do this - they are HELPING them to do what they are doing.

NATO did not force this war. Russia did. It wasn't NATO's decision to fight back. The Ukrainians did.

Exactly. At the begin of the war everyone was expecting it to be over within a week with Ukraine being annexed. Nobody expected the fierce response of the Ukrainians. The west only went in to help Ukraine as it was clear how much Putin had miscalculated, sometimes after lengthy discussions.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Exactly. At the begin of the war everyone was expecting it to be over within a week with Ukraine being annexed. Nobody expected the fierce response of the Ukrainians. The west only went in to help Ukraine as it was clear how much Putin had miscalculated, sometimes after lengthy discussions.

It's so bizarre. It's almost as if some people were happy to be anti-Russia up until the point where it seemed Russia actually had a fight on its hands, but the moment it went from being a sure thing for Russia to gain control of the region to being an actual two-sided fight, suddenly they stopped being "anti-Russia" and started being "anti-war", even if it means appeasing Russia. It's like one country effortlessly conquering another with barely a fight is bad, but a country actually fighting back against it's invaders is somehow... worse?

It's a bizarre display of messed-up priorities.

 

[Heyo]

It's so bizarre. It's almost as if some people were happy to be anti-Russia up until the point where it seemed Russia actually had a fight on its hands, but the moment it went from being a sure thing for Russia to gain control of the region to being an actual two-sided fight, suddenly they stopped being "anti-Russia" and started being "anti-war", even if it means appeasing Russia. It's like one country effortlessly conquering another with barely a fight is bad, but a country actually fighting back against it's invaders is somehow... worse?

It's a bizarre display of messed-up priorities.

I'm pretty anti war myself and if giving Putin what he wants would help, I'd be all for it, just to stop the suffering. But we know that that wouldn't stop Putin from trying it again and again, so, unfortunately, he must be stopped now to prevent future suffering.

 

[ajay0]

U.S-Nato wants Ukraine in NATO but not Russia inspite of numerous Russian requests, because Russia is the bogeyman the western military industrial-complex needs to divert western taxpayer money to enrich military industrial corporates, and sell weapons to terrified nations by using the Russian bogeyman threat.

Russia's pathetic performance in this war shows that it is not in an position to launch an invasion. It is more of a joke actually. So one can see that Russian military capabilities have been exaggerated by the west to ensure its narrative of russian aggression is bought by gullible nations, which would then buy their weapons and military equipments as well.

The U.S.-Nato also wants to coerce Russia to submission by deploying nuclear weapons in Ukraine to strategic effect. Russia is the largest country in the world, and its extensive resources such as oil and rare earths can greatly enrich the west.

So, it is all just western plutocracy, feigning as democracy, trying to dupe gullible people to serve their ends.

Even now the war can be ended if U.S.- NATO agrees to allow Russia into NATO, or even pledge to back off from Ukraine on formal agreements, provided Russia backs off from Ukraine as well.

 

[Estro Felino]

U.S-Nato wants Ukraine in NATO but not Russia inspite of numerous Russian requests, because Russia is the bogeyman the western military industrial-complex needs to divert western taxpayer money to enrich military industrial corporates, and sell weapons to terrified nations by using the Russian bogeyman threat.

Russia's pathetic performance in this war shows that it is not in an position to launch an invasion. It is more of a joke actually. So one can see that Russian military capabilities have been exaggerated by the west to ensure its narrative of russian aggression is bought by gullible nations, which would then buy their weapons and military equipments as well.

The U.S.-Nato also wants to coerce Russia to submission by deploying nuclear weapons in Ukraine to strategic effect. Russia is the largest country in the world, and its extensive resources such as oil and rare earths can greatly enrich the west.

So, it is all just western plutocracy, feigning as democracy, trying to dupe gullible people to serve their ends.

Even now the war can be ended if U.S.- NATO agrees to allow Russia into NATO, or even pledge to back off from Ukraine on formal agreements, provided Russia backs off from Ukraine as well.

Standing ovation. One hour of applause.
If the US really wanted world peace, it would have offered Russia to join the NATO after the fall of USSR.
Evidently they benefit from world war.
From a perpetual world war.
And they hate a Putin that nationalized the raw materials , because they would like to give them to the banking dynasties.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

U.S-Nato wants Ukraine in NATO but not Russia inspite of numerous Russian requests, because Russia is the bogeyman the western military industrial-complex needs to divert western taxpayer money to enrich military industrial corporates, and sell weapons to terrified nations by using the Russian bogeyman threat.

If Russia doesn't want to be the "bogeyman" perhaps it should stop attacking and annexing its neighbours, then following up these acts by burying their citizens in mass graves and arresting anti-war protestors.

It's very easy to be labelled the bad guy when you're, y'know, doing everything to make yourself the bad guy.

Russia's pathetic performance in this war shows that it is not in an position to launch an invasion. It is more of a joke actually. So one can see that Russian military capabilities have been exaggerated by the west to ensure its narrative of russian aggression is bought by gullible nations, which would then buy their weapons and military equipments as well.

Russian military strength isn't, and never has been, the issue. Whether Russia had conquered Ukraine in a day or if it had never gotten three feet over the border, their act is still one of military aggression that is totally unjustified. The fact that Russia is a threat to its neighbours is a claim that is so self-evident it barely requires repeating. While Ukraine vastly outperformed Russia's expectations in holding out, I think it is fair to say that US military arms have played a big part in Ukraine's subsequent push back against Russia.

The U.S.-Nato also wants to coerce Russia to submission by deploying nuclear weapons in Ukraine to strategic effect. Russia is the largest country in the world, and its extensive resources such as oil and rare earths can greatly enrich the west.

This is just baseless conspiracy. NATO, while aligned with western interests, is not solely controlled by the US. It is a DEFENSIVE alliance. Again, the power to have this war never happen, for tensions with NATO and the west not to escalate, to not have war crimes committed against the people of Ukraine, for the US to not supply arms to Ukraine and for the US not to enforce strict sanctions against Russia lies solely with Russia. They did not have to start this war. There was never any threat to them as a sovereign nation, and anyone who claims otherwise is swallowing a boatload of Kremin propaganda.

So, it is all just western plutocracy, feigning as democracy, trying to dupe gullible people to serve their ends.

If you truly believe this, then you must believe that Russia's invasion was somehow a western sci-op.

Even now the war can be ended if U.S.- NATO agrees to allow Russia into NATO, or even pledge to back off from Ukraine on formal agreements, provided Russia backs off from Ukraine as well.

This is not the deal Russia is seeking. They want control of Ukraine, or at least the annexed territories. They have already said that they will not be moved on this.

I also find it very telling that in all your rambling, there is not a single mention of the needs or desires of the Ukrainian people. Not a single mention. People who treat this war as some kind of proxy war fought over empty territory between NATO/US and Russia are so willfully ignorant to the desires and intents of the Ukrainian people it's bordering on outright war crime denial. Ukraine does not want Russia in their country. Ukraine wants to join NATO. This is their choice as a free and sovereign country. If they want American assistance in fighting off an imperialist power that is invading their country and killing their people, they have that right.

Apparently, some people are happy to take away or erode that right and give Russia exactly what it wants without consequence, because "America bad" is more important than actual justice, democracy and freedom.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Standing ovation. One hour of applause.
If the US really wanted world peace, it would have offered Russia to join the NATO after the fall of USSR.
Evidently they benefit from world war.
From a perpetual world war.
And they hate a Putin that nationalized the raw materials , because they would like to give them to the banking dynasties.

Russia started the war.

Russia could not, and cannot, join NATO because of its continued and repeated threats and takeovers of surrounding territory.

Ukraine wants western aid to fight off Russian military imperialism.

Why do people want to ignore these facts?

 

[ajay0]

If Russia doesn't want to be the "bogeyman" perhaps it should stop attacking and annexing its neighbours, then following up these acts by burying their citizens in mass graves and arresting anti-war protestors.

It has only attacked Ukraine and Georgia on account of their willingness to join NATO, which would provide nato to deploy weapons of wmd close to russian borders and gain strategic advantage over them.

Also U.S.-NATO had invaded Iraq over security concerns of wmd, which was proved to be false. Hence US.-NATO does not have any moral authority to talk about protecting sovereignly of other nations.

What matters for them is the bank balance of their corporates who call the shots over there and finance the election campaigns of sychophant western political leaders so as to make them do their will. The corporatised media is also used as a tool by them to serve their ends.

I
It's very easy to be labelled the bad guy when you're, y'know, doing everything to make yourself the bad guy.

Not everything is in black and white. There are a lot of gray tones and it takes some intellect to understand the facts rather than the narratives.

I
This is not the deal Russia is seeking. They want control of Ukraine, or at least the annexed territories. They have already said that they will not be moved on this.

If they wanted Ukraine, they would have done the necessary preparation for it. On the other hand, they displayed old tactics and obsolete technologies which shows that they were not well-prepared.

I
I also find it very telling that in all your rambling, there is no a single mention of the needs or desires of the Ukrainian people. Not a single mention. People who treat this war as some kind of proxy war fought over empty territory between NATO/US and Russia are so willfully ignorant to the desires and intents of the Ukrainian people it's bordering on outright war crime denial. Ukraine does not want Russia in their country. Ukraine wants to join NATO. This is their choice as a free and sovereign country. If they want American assistance in fighting off an imperialist power that is invading their country and killing their people, they have that right.

Fine. Allow Ukraine as well as Russia to join NATO as well, so as to allay Russian concerns of US.-NATO aggression.

This will profit western people as well, because Russian nuclearn weapons and ballistic missiles can wipe out the U.S and Europe many times over. U.S and Europe have still no credible defense against Russian nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles.

By proper diplomatic measures and negotiations , peace can be restored ending the war.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But how do you square this when dealing with a country determined to continue in a war in order to annex territory?

You are treating Ukraine as if it's not it's own sovereign entity, as if it's people are empty-headed pawns in an elaborate game that is really being played between Russia and NATO.
But the Ukranian people emphatically do not want Russia invading their land - they are fighting to push Russia back. NATO is not forcing them to do this - they are HELPING them to do what they are doing.

NATO did not force this war. Russia did. It wasn't NATO's decision to fight back. The Ukrainians did.

Figure out why they are doing so.
It is an empty-headed plan and Ukrainians (Russians too) are the sufferers. Only the West sits pretty for now except for energy shortages.
Ukrainians should have considered the pros and cons of going too close to West given the Russian susceptibilities. I do not know who forced the war.

 

[LuisDantas]

I know, unless you remove your filters.

Be my guest. How would NATO be responsible for Putin's adventurism?

Same for your second statement. Divide the world into Axis and Allies, and watch the fun.

You are aware of the trouble has been creating in bordering countries for a fair while now, I hope?

How do you justify it?

Why is NATO not well within its rights to exist and challenge it?

Arguably, NATO would have to arise for that very purpose if it did not already exist.

The question is whether they needed to expand into CIS?

That expansion is something of a myth, as I pointed out back in post #99 of this thread.

Of the actual former or current members of CIS in any capacity, Georgia is the only one that can even be argued to have been part of NATO's expansion. Ukraine was never a CIS member.

But that is besides the point. You are creating a need for justification where there is none. I will not spare you the need for explaining why that need would exist.

NATO has every right of accepting willing countries into its own composition. It is really that simple, and the only attempt at implying otherwise that I can see is some sort of interest in protecting Russian ambitions, which are by now very obviously unjustifiable.

You are encouraging American imperialism and militarism.

You will have to try and show me how so. Or else I will simply disregard this claim of yours. Should I?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It has only attacked Ukraine and Georgia on account of their willingness to join NATO,

Which is, again, their right as sovereign nations. Also, Ukraine would not have met the requirements to join NATO due to its internal issues. By invading Ukraine, all Russia has really done is proven how necessary NATO membership is for its' neighbours. You cannot crow about your neighbours joining a defensive alliance against you when you continually attack and politically interfere with your neighbours. "They were going to take steps designed to keep us from invading them" is not a good excuse for invading them.

which would provide nato to deploy weapons of wmd close to russian borders and gain strategic advantage over them.

Russia is a nuclear power. NATO has never posed, and likely never will pose, a threat to Russian sovereignty. This has been obvious to Putin and his forebears for decades. Ukraine's hypothetical NATO membership was never more than a pretext for Putin to do what he always wanted to do.

Also U.S.-NATO had invaded Iraq over security concerns of wmd, which was proved to be false. Hence US.-NATO does not have any moral authority to talk about protecting sovereignly of other nations.

They did not annex Iraq - it remained a sovereign state albeit one under occupation. Nevertheless, even if they had, "America did a bad thing for bad reasons this one time" does not therefore mean "America supporting a free country against foreign invasion in this particular instance is therefore bad". I am not a supporter of the Iraq war, or of American foreign policy in general. I am a supporter of Ukraine in its war against Russia. America happens to simply be supporting the right side of this particular conflict.

Once again, I suggest you remove your blind anti-American prejudice and judge these events for what they are, rather than judging it on the history of one country that is only tangentially involved.

What matters for them is the bank balance of their corporates who call the shots over there and finance the election campaigns of sychophant western political leaders so as to make them do their will. The corporatised media is also used as a tool by them to serve their ends.

I do not consider conspiracy-mongering to be a substantive argument. We are all aware of America's hegemonic control. That has nothing to do with the justification for Russia invading Ukraine, or the legitimacy of supporting the fight for Ukraine to defend itself. Whether they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts or because it pleases heir corporate interests, what matters is the needs and wellbeing of the people of Ukraine against an aggressive invader.

Not everything is in black and white. There are a lot of gray tones and it takes some intellect to understand the facts rather than the narratives.

I agree. Which is why I don't automatically side with Russia when America gets involved in a conflict against them. If you genuinely believed what you are saying here, you would not unilaterally condemn the US in this war between two unrelated states.

If they wanted Ukraine, they would have done the necessary preparation for it. On the other hand, they displayed old tactics and technologies which shows that they were not well-prepared.

This level of delusion is beyond my reasoning.

"Oh come on! Russia's invasion was rubbish. Therefore, it doesn't matter and we can just let them do what they want. If it had been a GOOD invasion, then maybe you'd have a point that the people of Ukraine deserve to not be mass murdered and denied the right to live in a sovereign, democratic state. But, clearly, Russia isn't very good at doing invasions, so we should just let Ukraine die."

Fine. allow Ukraine as well as Russia to join NATO as well, so as to allay Russian concerns of US.-NATO aggression.

That's not going to happen. Russia have already stated it is their intent to control Ukraine. At this stage, they are not enabling peace talks.

This will profit western people as well, because Russian nuclearn weapons and ballistic missiles can wipe out the U.S and Europe many times over. U.S and Europe have still no credible defense against Russian nuclear weapons and missile.

I find it ironic that you make this statement after your previous suggestion that Russia is, at least partially, justified because it believed NATO posed a threat to them. If the above is true, then obviously they DON'T think that.

So, which is it? Is Russia a military threat who could end the world with a blink of an eye with its massive nuclear arsenal, or is it a timid, scared puppy who were just so filled with existential dread at the idea of a defensive alliance moving weapons on their borders that they simply HAD to invade their neighbour (and do a really bad job of doing it)?

By proper diplomatic measures and negotiations , peace can be restored ending the war.

People keep saying this as if it's like flicking a light switch. Russia want to be in Ukraine. Russia continues to want to be in Ukraine. Russia is turning away peace talks. Russia is attempting to annex territory. The Ukrainians want them out. What first steps to peace can happen if Russia continues to fight?

Once again, you have not mentioned the intentions or desires of the Ukrainian people, because you know that to do so even for a micro-instant renders your entire argument irrelevant.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How is it encouraging American imperialism and militarism for NATO to assist Ukraine?

Once again, you are treating Ukraine like an empty plot of land filled with puppets. Ukraine is a sovereign state fighting for its existence against an invading country. The people of Ukraine unilaterally oppose Russian occupation. They are fighting against Russian imperialism; NATO and America are assisting them.

Is America doing this purely out of the kindness of its heart? Of course not. This is geopolitics. America is most likely involved because it is in their interest to ensure Ukraine remains under democratic control and amenable to the west rather than under Russian control and amenable to Russian and Chinese interests. But it just so happens that, in this instance, this interest happens to overlap with what is actually morally correct and politically globally beneficial; that Russian imperialism be opposed, the sovereign state of Ukraine remains independent and democratic, and that the people of Ukraine not be subject to Russian control and war crimes.

This bizarre, "thing bad because America is involved" attitude is baffling. America and NATO are undeniably in the right on this one.

Incorporating CIS countries in NATO is USA/Western imperialism.
Sovereign states also have their limitations. Geopolitics, as you said. And Ukraine is having a taste of that.
So, USA has a design against Russia and China. In that case why do you absolve USA and NATO of being participants in the game!

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Figure out why they are doing so.
It is an empty-headed plan and Ukrainians (Russians too) are the sufferers. Only the West sits pretty for now except for energy shortages.
Ukrainians should have considered the pros and cons of going too close to West given the Russian susceptibilities. I do not know who forced the war.

I am growing increasingly tired of your inability to accept the reality of this situation.

Russia are refusing peace talks. What options, short of giving Russia exactly what they want, is going to lead to peace here? Why should the will of the Ukrainian people be silenced because of your refusal to accept the fact that Russia started this war and had all the power to end it from the beginning?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Incorporating CIS countries in NATO is USA/Western imperialism.

No, it isn't. NATO is a defensive pact. While it is aligned with western interests, it only exists as such as an explicit response to Russian imperialism. i.e: ACTUAL imperialism.

If you really were as egalitarian and peace-loving as you claim, you would understand that a country being more amenable to western neo-colonialism is still better than actual colonialism.

Sovereign states also have their limitations. Geopolitics, as you said. And Ukraine is having a taste of that.

So what? You want Ukraine to die and it's people genocided because... it's better than leaning towards western interests?

So, USA has a design against Russia and China. In that case why do you absolve USA and NATO of being participants in the game!

Never absolved them. Simply pointing out the fact that Russia started the invasion, is continuing the invasion, and the will of the Ukrainian people is to be free of Russian occupation and not be killed en masse.

The fact that you have to keep ignoring these facts in order to place America and NATO as the villains in your comedy/tragedy of global politics is baffling. No matter what some historically and politically illiterate people may have told you "America bad" is not the only position worth a damn in the global political landscape. There are worse things and worse countries than America.

 

[Estro Felino]

Figure out why they are doing so.
It is an empty-headed plan and Ukrainians (Russians too) are the sufferers. Only the West sits pretty for now except for energy shortages.
Ukrainians should have considered the pros and cons of going too close to West given the Russian susceptibilities. I do not know who forced the war.

I would like to know why Ukrainian soldiers and civilians (and Russian soldiers and civilians) are supposed to die for the sake of a pointless territorial dispute, whereas the élites stay safe and warm in their luxurious buildings, giving orders.
It's utterly unjust. It's unbearable.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I would like to know why Ukrainian soldiers and civilians (and Russian soldiers and civilians) are supposed to die for the sake of a pointless territorial dispute, whereas the élites stay safe and warm in their luxurious buildings, giving orders.
It's utterly unjust. It's unbearable.

Because Russia started a war by invading Ukraine.

Have I been taking crazy pills? Has the news from the last eight months been some sort of personal fever dream?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ukraine has a 1,974.04 kilometres (1,226.61 mi) long land border with Russia. Therefore, Russia does not want NATO to come there. It will do all in its power to stop that.
That probably includes use of nuclear weapons, and it is Ukrainians who are going to suffer the most. I am neither an American stooge nor a Russian stooge. I am an Indian, with independent views. I am only expressing my views. We too have a long border with China and Pakistan (much longer than the Russian Ukrainian border) and are concerned about that. But geo-politics requires us to walk but geo-politics requires us to walk gingerly. Unfortunately, Ukraine (and others) did not do so.
My question is - Is the West ready for that eventuality?