The NATO

[ImmortalFlame]

If Allah did not want Putin to rule Russia, Putin would not have lasted even for 5 minutes ("lā ḥawla wa-lā quwwata ʾillā bi-llāhi").

Ahhhh, now I'm starting to understand your position a little better.

You think Putin is appointed by God. That explains a lot.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Again, the people of Ukraine would disagree, and we should honour that. You cannot simply allow a country to be swallowed up by its neighbour because they have nuclear arms.
Which Ukraine is willing to pay, and that will should be respected.

Russia is not engaging with peace talks. It is widely believed that any peace talks Russia previously engaged in were all for show. So our options now are feed the Ukrainian people to Russia or assist them in their efforts to resist and repel Russian aggression. I think assisting them is the better option. The decision to invade and the decision not to engage with peace talks all fall squarely on Russia, not on NATO.

It's war. Threats of escalation happen.

In peace talks, solutions can be found, autonomy, etc.
Yeah, it is their business. We can manage whatever effects the war will have on India to certain extent, not talking of WWIII.
But if Ukraine and its saviors are not interested, Que sera sera.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

In peace talks, solutions can be found, autonomy, etc.

Russia
is
not
engaging
in
peace
talks.

Why do you need me to keep telling you this? They already threw out Ukraine's suggestion that it wouldn't enter NATO and continued to invade anyway.

Yeah, it is their business. We can manage whatever effects the war will have on India to certain extent, not talking of WWIII.

We don't have to start WW3. Russia just has to not invade its neighbours.

Again, this is purely in Russia's power. ONLY Russia has the ability to retreat and not invade its neighbour - or, alternatively, it is Ukraine's only option to repel them.

But if Ukraine and its saviors are not interested, Que sera sera.

Right now, Ukraine is its own saviour. It's preventing WW3 by doing the right thing: showing Russia it can't invade neighbouring countries at will.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are the one essentially saying that it is worth Ukrainians dying or being ruled over by a foreign power against their will rather than suffer the heinous indignity of .. being able to actually fight back of their own free will.
They should have just been a happy little vassal of the Kremlin and put up with human rights violations, suppression of free speech and being a sock puppet to a foreign state.
He did it because he wants to own Ukraine.

It is a proxy war. US has made it clear that they would not commit their soldiers to it. I am saying that for Ukraine, it is not worth dying for NATO's interests.
It is not necessary to be vassals, but it is quite possible to take note of other nations' sensitivity. That is why Taiwan is not recognized as an independent nation even by US.
That is what you think.

Well, we have probably said all for our two positions. Now it can only be a repeat. So, let us just watch what is happening in Ukraine. Russians bombed a third power station the day before yesterday.

You think Putin is appointed by God. That explains a lot.

That was for @muhammad_isa, not for others.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It is a proxy war.

False. The war is between Russia and Ukraine. US is aiding Ukraine. The US was not involved in Russia's decision to invade - that was entirely Russia's doing.

Please stop repeating Russian propaganda.

US has made it clear that they would not commit their soldiers to it.

Well, yeah. Because it's Ukraine's war.

I am saying that for Ukraine, it is not worth dying for NATO's interests.

They are dying for their own interests, and how dare you demean and belittle them by telling them that they have no agency in this conflict.

Honestly, that is more morally objectionable than anything else you have said. It's vile to suggest it.

They are fighting Russia because they don't want to be invaded by Russia. Do you understand that. Don't you dare insult the Ukrainian people by treating them like mindless automatons with no free will and no drive of their own. I expect you to retract this disgusting statement.

It is not necessary to be vassals, but it is quite possible to take note of other nations' sensitivity.

Russia invaded them.

That is why Taiwan is not recognized as an independent nation even by US.

True. But what does that have to do with Ukraine's right to self-determination and and their right to not be invaded? Taiwan certainly treats ITSELF how it wants. It has its own language, its own currency, its own history, it is just not recognised internationally by many countries for reasons of diplomacy. Ukraine is absolutely an autonomous state, and is entitled to all the rights an autonomous state provides.

The consequence of your logic is that if Russia declares ANY nation its territory, we should all act like it's Russia's territory for diplomatic reasons. Do I need to explain to you why this is absurd?

That is what you think.

What I think is that Ukraine doesn't want to be invaded, and that they should have the right to try to join NATO, because they are an independent state.

You believe they shouldn't have that right, because Russia has bombs and is controlled by a violent fascist.

Apparently, Ukraine disagrees.

I agree with Ukraine.

 

[Estro Felino]

Russia
is
not
engaging
in
peace
talks.

We do know Putin wants peace.

So as far as I know it is others...other non-Europeans who are doing anything to avoid peace talks.
Who are doing anything to make the war escalate.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

We have classified documents that prove Putin wants peace.

Please present them. Otherwise, this is obviously false. Putin has had several peace offers made and rejected them. Not to mention the fact that he started the war.

So as far as I know it is others...other non-Europeans who are doing anything to avoid peace talks.
Who are doing anything to make the war escalate.

Nope. Russia can withdraw at any time.

Ball's in their court.

 

[Estro Felino]

Please present them. Otherwise, this is obviously false. Putin has had several peace offers made and rejected them. Not to mention the fact that he started the war.


Nope. Russia can withdraw at any time.

Ball's in their court.

This thread is about the NATO.
May I know why the NATO is supposedly better than Russia and her allies? Is it better?
Thank you in advance.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This thread is about the NATO.
May I know why the NATO is supposedly better than Russia and her allies? Is it better?
Thank you in advance.

What is your objective standard for better and what is your evidence, if you have any? Please answer that and I will give you my answer.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

This thread is about the NATO.
May I know why the NATO is supposedly better than Russia and her allies? Is it better?

NATO is a defensive alliance between countries, chiefly concerned with protecting countries against invasion from their neighbours.

Russia is a propagandistic fascist state operated by a maniac intent on invading his neighbours for personal glory.

NATO is better. Not every country in NATO necessarily, but for all it is - a defensive alliance - it does its job fine. Russia barely does its job as a state, and is currently doings its best to make the world worse through military imperialism and harming its own citizens and ignoring international laws and treaties it previously agreed to.

Now, where are these "top secret documents" that prove Putin wants peace? Please note that if you fail to provide them now, I will consider what you said to be untrue until you produce them.

 

[Estro Felino]

NATO is a defensive alliance between countries, chiefly concerned with protecting countries against invasion from their neighbours.

May I know what the NATO did in Libya...that makes the NATO itself better than Russia?
Whom the NATO sided with and why.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

May I know what the NATO did in Libya...that makes the NATO itself better than Russia?

Sure. NATO acted to try and protect civilians from the Gadaffi regime. Russia is acting to advance its powers at the cost of neighbouring sovereign nations.

That makes them better, yes.

Not that it matters. Even if NATO's involvement in Libya was completely unjustified, it does absolutely nothing to justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine. You might as well argue that you are justified in punching your neighbour because your neighbour is friends with someone who once stole a car.

And you still haven't produced the "top secret document". Was it a lie?

 

[Estro Felino]

Sure. NATO acted to try and protect civilians from the Gadaffi regime. Russia is acting to advance its powers at the cost of neighbouring sovereign nations.

That makes them better, yes.

Not that it matters. Even if NATO's involvement in Libya was completely unjustified, it does absolutely nothing to justify Russia's invasion of Ukraine. You might as well argue that you are justified in punching your neighbour because your neighbour is friends with someone who once stole a car.

And you still haven't produced the "top secret document". Was it a lie?

The NATO favored the Islamists' entry to Tripoli.
That is, the radicals, the extremists who hated Gaddafi because he had modernized the country. He had westernized the country, which had become one of the wealthiest countries in the Mediterranean.
It is sufficient to see the pictures of Tripoli before and after the war.
The NATO sided with the worst of the worst.
And NATO's credibility and reliability is below the threshold of tolerability. Below zero.
Because what the NATO did in Libya was to destroy a wealthy modern country and turn it into a country split in two. The Tripolitania has practically gone back to the Middle Ages, women have less rights.
I know the Libyan matter in detail...and someday the matter will have to be dealt by the ICJ in The Hague.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The NATO favored the Islamists' entry to Tripoli.
That is, the radicals, the extremists who hated Gaddafi because he had modernized the country.

Nope. It was the airstrikes he conducted against his own people:
First Libyan Civil War - Wikipedia

He had westernized the country, which had become one of the wealthiest countries in the Mediterranean.
It is sufficient to see the pictures of Tripoli before and after the war.
The NATO sided with the worst of the worst.
And NATO's credibility and reliability is below the threshold of tolerability. Below zero.
Because what the NATO did in Libya was to destroy a wealthy modern country and turn it into a country split in two. The Tripolitania has practically went back to the Middle Ages, women have less rights.
I know the Libyan matter in detail...and someday the matter will have to be dealt by the ICJ in The Hague.

I can't help but notice you've ignored my actual arguments. Though you continuing to demonstrate a fondness for tyranical regimes is noted.

None of this has anything to do with Russia invading Ukraine. "NATO did a bad thing" does not mean "Russia invading Ukraine is good, actually".

And, frankly, I have every reason to doubt your version of events considering you are willing to state things that are false in order to support your Putin sycophancy, such as make up the existence of "top secret documents" that prove Putin wants peace.

 

[Estro Felino]

I can't help but notice you've ignored my actual arguments. Though you continuing to demonstrate a fondness for tyranical regimes is noted.

.

When it deals with extremists, radicals that want to restore a culture where women are treated like property, I guess a regime will have to go tyrannical.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

When it deals with extremists, radicals that want to restore a culture where women are treated like property, I guess a regime will have to go tyrannical.

Still not going to produce those "top secret documents that prove Putin wants peace"?

 

[Estro Felino]

Still not going to produce those "top secret documents that prove Putin wants peace"?

I cannot say what they are about, now. Later I can.

By the way, watch this.

Now I get why the Irish are Catholics, like us.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I cannot say it what they are about, now. Later I can.

No, you can do it now.

So do it.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, you can do it now.

So do it.

This war is going to end. Soon enough. Period.
So I would like to tell the financial banking elites and the warmongers pandering them: Abandon all hope. There will be no world war.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

This war is going to end. Soon enough. Period.
So I would like to tell the financial banking elites and the warmongers pandering them: Abandon all hope. There will be no world war.

The document doesn't exist, it's made up.