• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The ONLY religious question!

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Frustration causes people to react different. Some lash out some seek to resolve the issue. Hove or whatever that may be.
God is Love. Most people who don't know Love claim they do.. Walk in love and you will find truth. Not my truth but the truth. I used to conform to some religious idiocratic dogma it wasn't because I was stupid it was out of ignorance and self-rightousness. I strive to walk in Love now not ignorance but I'm sure I pissed alot of people like you off on the way. I'm sorry.
Well, you know, I try to "walk in love," too. But for me, that means acceptance of others, appreciation of others, concern for the well-being of others -- but not for what others "ought to think or do."

Unlike those who think they know what "God wants," and therefore try to push it onto everyone else (I was pressed with Islamic and Christian proselytizers this very afternoon for no other reason than I walked through a busy downtown intersection).

For those who still do not get it, my entire point is this: if there is a "God" (as generically described by most believers), then by
I already know what I need to know, because I would be utterly powerless against omnipotence to not know.

This leads us to some pretty deep conundrums, doesn't it? Because if what I just said is true for me, it's true for you, too. And in that case, if we both know something different, then it must be the case that this omnipotent God desires us to know something different. The Pope knows about God what God wants the Pope to know, but the Ayatollahs in Iran can make precisely the same claim.

Consider the implications of that, if you will.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Well, you know, I try to "walk in love," too. But for me, that means acceptance of others, appreciation of others, concern for the well-being of others -- but not for what others "ought to think or do."

Unlike those who think they know what "God wants," and therefore try to push it onto everyone else (I was pressed with Islamic and Christian proselytizers this very afternoon for no other reason than I walked through a busy downtown intersection).

For those who still do not get it, my entire point is this: if there is a "God" (as generically described by most believers), then by
I already know what I need to know, because I would be utterly powerless against omnipotence to not know.

This leads us to some pretty deep conundrums, doesn't it? Because if what I just said is true for me, it's true for you, too. And in that case, if we both know something different, then it must be the case that this omnipotent God desires us to know something different. The Pope knows about God what God wants the Pope to know, but the Ayatollahs in Iran can make precisely the same claim.

Consider the implications of that, if you will.

With great power (omnipotence, omniscience) comes great responsibility. Is God living up to His/Her responsibility if the consequences for not believing is eternal torture?
 

SpiritQuest

The Immortal Man
Sorry, had to post this, after having just had a rant in another thread...

To everyone who has a religious belief that the hold to be "the Truth," or "the only way to salvation," I want to ask this one simple question:

What the hell do you think you know that everybody else doesn't? How can you be so blindly stupid as to imagine for yourself a God that could make his truth known to you -- but was utterly powerless to make it known to everybody else?

Different people are at different stages of spiritual growth. I think that you may be helping people in their spiritual growth, yes. The bible is mostly symbolic writings and is not meant to be read literally...
Truth is to "know thyself" in order to be true to thyself then your words and deeds shall be in harmony and you will be true to all.
 

Diak (Jack) Anosh

Member
Premium Member
Correct. Absolutely correct. But Christ asked " what is truth ? "

"TRUTH" is a tangible entity, based upon an intangible supplier.

When an invisible, and unfindable God says "Search" - we ask "Where?"
When H says "Listen" we ask "To WHAT?
And when He says "Look and see" we ask "Look where and at what, and how are we to know what we are seeing?"

Then, we are told, If you have faith, it will all come clear to you." (Paraphrase of a concept).

Then, upon reflection, we wonder at the wisdom of our own reflections into matters so sublime, we can only conclude, "It is too wonderful for me."

I not only do not have all the answers, I do not believe I have heard all the questions.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
What if hinduism is correct and you're messing up by following the wrong religion and will be reincarnated as a dung beetle?! You better hurry up and start getting right with Vishnu!
i have no religion

and i see no gain in reincarnating to a lesser form

or perhaps the possibility of God rendering your spirit
to a form more suiting to your spirit.......
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
With great power (omnipotence, omniscience) comes great responsibility. Is God living up to His/Her responsibility if the consequences for not believing is eternal torture?
if living for eternity with others that think and feel as you do....is torture

then how is God to blame?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I am, of course, well aware of your dislike for me and my posts. My arguments do not appeal to you much, that's clear. But I wonder if you feel that the sentence above, referring to MY rabid statements and MY "veneer of civility" might suggest something about yourself? Consider it.

Now, just a quick question about that -- if you do not know anything of God, how could you knw what "He said" about diligently seeking Him? If you knew that He had said that, you would already know of His existence. You can't see how circular absolutely everything you say is -- for the very simple reason that you believe what you don't know, and then assume that your beliefs are knowledge. Another tight circularity.

And what, exactly, does it mean to "find him?" That you would suddenly feel a whole lot more sure about the things that you believe, but have still never had the slightest bit of evidence about? Do you know, that worked, just about 20 years ago now, for those who died in the Heaven's Gate cult of Marshall Applewhite. How do you know they were wrong, and did not board a spaceship hiding behind comet Hale-Bopp? They knew it.

And -- please try to remember this -- what EVEN MORE BILLIONS throughout history up until this very moment have not known and do not know, and have not believed and do not believe. That points to an essential failure of your god to be anything like universal and omnipotent.
Huh ? "that points to an essential failure of your God to be anything like universal and omnipotent", what a nonsensical conclusion. It points to the essential failure of humanity, not God.Being universal and omnipotent has nothing to do with compelling belief by those who have free will
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Huh ? "that points to an essential failure of your God to be anything like universal and omnipotent", what a nonsensical conclusion. It points to the essential failure of humanity, not God.Being universal and omnipotent has nothing to do with compelling belief by those who have free will
What happens when you meet Someone Greater (omnipotent)
and He wants to know....What do you believe?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Huh ? "that points to an essential failure of your God to be anything like universal and omnipotent", what a nonsensical conclusion. It points to the essential failure of humanity, not God.Being universal and omnipotent has nothing to do with compelling belief by those who have free will
Well, sorry but I disagree completely.

This business of "belief" really is something of a problem. Just so you know, I never believe what I can observe to be false. I rather hope you would say the same, but I wouldn't guarantee that. I've know too many religious believers who have gone so far as to channel Tertullian in his "credo quia absurdum!" "I believe it because it is absurd!" Well, I do not. If it is absurd, it is not to be believed.

If -- and I mean an immensely huge IF -- there is something essential to salvation to be believed, and if (same huge IF) God is concerned with human salvation, then to hide it and require belief sans any evidence at all is a contradiction and utterly absurd.

And it is less than nothing to do with "free will." You cannot, with all the free will in the world, believe that your mother was actually Godzilla -- no matter how hard you try. Your free will can allow you to say that she was (and thus make a complete fool of yourself to anyone who hears you) but your free will does not permit you to actually believe it.

I know what the Christian religion says, and I also know that most of the human beings who have ever lived on this planet, and likewise most of those who presently live here, have not and do not believe it. Because it does not make sense to them. And that is proof positive that at least one part of what Christians believe -- either that God is omniscient, or omnipotent, or truly caring about humanity -- must by definition be false.

The argument is called "reduction ad absurdum."
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Well, sorry but I disagree completely.

This business of "belief" really is something of a problem. Just so you know, I never believe what I can observe to be false. I rather hope you would say the same, but I wouldn't guarantee that. I've know too many religious believers who have gone so far as to channel Tertullian in his "credo quia absurdum!" "I believe it because it is absurd!" Well, I do not. If it is absurd, it is not to be believed.

If -- and I mean an immensely huge IF -- there is something essential to salvation to be believed, and if (same huge IF) God is concerned with human salvation, then to hide it and require belief sans any evidence at all is a contradiction and utterly absurd.

And it is less than nothing to do with "free will." You cannot, with all the free will in the world, believe that your mother was actually Godzilla -- no matter how hard you try. Your free will can allow you to say that she was (and thus make a complete fool of yourself to anyone who hears you) but your free will does not permit you to actually believe it.

I know what the Christian religion says, and I also know that most of the human beings who have ever lived on this planet, and likewise most of those who presently live here, have not and do not believe it. Because it does not make sense to them. And that is proof positive that at least one part of what Christians believe -- either that God is omniscient, or omnipotent, or truly caring about humanity -- must by definition be false.

The argument is called "reduction ad absurdum."
That is an inane argument. First, you cannot observe anything about Christianity that is false. You INTERPRET what you see to be false. Ever seen a black hole ?, no one has. Do they exist ? the evidence is pretty conclusive, but I have no doubt that someone, somewhere, interprets the evidence another way. The "most human beings who have ever lived" statement is evidence of nothing. God hasn't hidden anything, my goodness the life death and teachings of Christ have been evident for two thousand years, if by exercising their right to choose, they are like you, so what ? God deals with people individually, not en masse, and you have absolutely no idea how God interrelated with each person "who has ever existed". There may have been many millions who were right with him, and didn't know about Israel or Christianity. God hasn't conveyed to us all the information about his relationship with mankind, just what we need. So I think it is quite something that you are able to speak for all of humanity and categorically state "they didn't believe". God's criteria is what counts, your speaking for humanity about something you couldn't possibly know is the absolute height of hubris. You state that you "know what the Christian religion says ", actually I am pretty darn sure you haven't a clue. You state that "most people who presently live here have not and do not believe it " Every poll in the last 30 years show that the overwhelming majority of people consider themselves to be Christians, admittedly it has gone down, it is only 75% now. So actually YOU and your fallacious arguments, and yes, sometimes whining, are what most people in the USA don't accept,
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
You state that you "know what the Christian religion says ", actually I am pretty darn sure you haven't a clue. You state that "most people who presently live here have not and do not believe it " Every poll in the last 30 years show that the overwhelming majority of people consider themselves to be Christians, admittedly it has gone down, it is only 75% now. So actually YOU and your fallacious arguments, and yes, sometimes whining, are what most people in the USA don't accept,
What a statement! What are you doing, assuming that the entire world is the United States? That India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, China, Indonesia all don't exist? Wow!!!

Sorry, but those countries actually exist. This is a planet has about 7 billion people on it -- and under 40% of them even vaguely consider themselves Christian.

The USA is not the world -- and soon enough, under Donald Duck (ooops, Trump), it won't be much of anything.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
What a statement! What are you doing, assuming that the entire world is the United States? That India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, China, Indonesia all don't exist? Wow!!!

Sorry, but those countries actually exist. This is a planet has about 7 billion people on it -- and under 40% of them even vaguely consider themselves Christian.

The USA is not the world -- and soon enough, under Donald Duck (ooops, Trump), it won't be much of anything.
You said "here" assuming you are an American, and not a Pakastani, here is the USA, so that is what I responded to. There you go again, speaking for huge swathes of mankind, how do you know who "vaguely consider themselves Christian?" I am beginning to think you think yourself the Oracle of Delphi, you know the minds of all people
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Sorry, had to post this, after having just had a rant in another thread...

To everyone who has a religious belief that the hold to be "the Truth," or "the only way to salvation,"

Actually not true, because there religious beliefs that do not share your arrogant black and white view of salvation. The Baha'i Faith believes more in the question of sincerity in ones search and belief in God. Other views like the Advaita Vedanta definitely do take a more tolerant view toward the human spiritual journey.

I do believe . . .

God is not a chess player
with the white pieces.
God is the sea . . .
and we are the fishes.

I want to ask this one simple question:

What the hell do you think you know that everybody else doesn't? How can you be so blindly stupid as to imagine for yourself a God that could make his truth known to you -- but was utterly powerless to make it known to everybody else?

You're the one with the problem believing that everyone else is an arrogant one sided view of a vindictive vengeful God. The bottom line is they do not!
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
if living for eternity with others that think and feel as you do....is torture

then how is God to blame?

I'm responding to the common notion that Hell is a realm of eternal torture and is the consequence for non belief. I'm not sure how others "thinking and feeling as you do" relates to that.

But being surrounded by people who think and feel the same way would probably get boring after awhile and that would probably, eventually (if ironically) feel like torture.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I am, of course, well aware of your dislike for me and my posts. My arguments do not appeal to you much, that's clear. But I wonder if you feel that the sentence above, referring to MY rabid statements and MY "veneer of civility" might suggest something about yourself? Consider it.
Since you were not responding to me in your opening post, and since I have seen you debate others as well, there is no good reason to think I am the cause. BTW I am judging your debate temperament far less than you personally.

Now, just a quick question about that -- if you do not know anything of God, how could you knw what "He said" about diligently seeking Him? If you knew that He had said that, you would already know of His existence. You can't see how circular absolutely everything you say is -- for the very simple reason that you believe what you don't know, and then assume that your beliefs are knowledge. Another tight circularity.
Assuming you not an African bushman from a few centuries ago you can know that from the bible. Let me fill in some context. The fact that the bible is the best selling, most scrutinized, and most cherished book in human history plus that it covers the most profound subjects anyone can possibly think of it certainly deserves investigation. No one can get through the book of numbers of kings with a struggle but the Gospels are easy reading. In there you would find that verse plus many others saying the same things. Isn't it at least worth a serious shot. That is what I did, one day I said "that's it I am going to get to the bottom of this religion thing", expecting to reach a negative verdict. To my surprise I reached the opposite. Anything in that description beyond your capacity?

And what, exactly, does it mean to "find him?" That you would suddenly feel a whole lot more sure about the things that you believe, but have still never had the slightest bit of evidence about? Do you know, that worked, just about 20 years ago now, for those who died in the Heaven's Gate cult of Marshall Applewhite. How do you know they were wrong, and did not board a spaceship hiding behind comet Hale-Bopp? They knew it.
Its like (only far stronger) like being in love. If you never have been you question its existence, once having been you know it.

And -- please try to remember this -- what EVEN MORE BILLIONS throughout history up until this very moment have not known and do not know, and have not believed and do not believe. That points to an essential failure of your god to be anything like universal and omnipotent.
You are again describing something other than Christianity then condemning Christianity for it. We are only responsible for the revelation we have been exposed to. I am not an expert on this issue. I recommend William Craig's book on the problem of the unevangelised. However I will give one example. The Jews were required to have faith in a future messiah, just the same as the Christian is to have in a past messiah. This is referred to as progressive revelation.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
You said "here" assuming you are an American, and not a Pakastani, here is the USA, so that is what I responded to. There you go again, speaking for huge swathes of mankind, how do you know who "vaguely consider themselves Christian?" I am beginning to think you think yourself the Oracle of Delphi, you know the minds of all people
That is not how I would have read what I wrote: "I also know that most of the human beings who have ever lived on this planet, and likewise most of those who presently live here, have not and do not believe it."

I would read that sentence as "this planet" and "here" having the same meaning, because the only thing that changed -- that differentiates -- is "have lived" and the "presently live."

And I'm not an American, I'm a Canadian. It is a fact that as a nation, we are more aware of the rest of the world than Americans typically seem to be.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
You're the one with the problem believing that everyone else is an arrogant one sided view of a vindictive vengeful God. The bottom line is they do not!
Where I originally wrote my opinion, it was in response to a Christian who had -- like very many other Christians I've dialogued with throughout my life -- made the direct assertion that God not only could but would withhold knowledge of Himself, and without that knowledge people would be condemned to eternal damnation. And I've read the opinions of many Muslims, too, for whom "Hell will be occupied by those who do not believe in God (Tawhid), have disobeyed His laws, and/or reject His messengers." Now, you may be correct -- there may only be 5 or 6 people in the world who believe that sort of thing, but really, I kind of doubt it.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Assuming you not an African bushman from a few centuries ago you can know that from the bible. Let me fill in some context. The fact that the bible is the best selling, most scrutinized, and most cherished book in human history plus that it covers the most profound subjects anyone can possibly think of it certainly deserves investigation. No one can get through the book of numbers of kings with a struggle but the Gospels are easy reading. In there you would find that verse plus many others saying the same things. Isn't it at least worth a serious shot. That is what I did, one day I said "that's it I am going to get to the bottom of this religion thing", expecting to reach a negative verdict. To my surprise I reached the opposite. Anything in that description beyond your capacity?
You mistake me. I have read the Bible -- more than most Christians I know, actually, because I've been a huge reader all of my life. And I have written on it, as well -- often receiving (as in University) high praise for the quality of my exegesis -- although my exegesis did not and does not lead to the same place as that of many others.

I do not know how you read, and what you include or ignore in forming your overall opinion of what you've read. In my case, it is and has always been that the Bible is not coherent -- rather the reverse in many ways. And I cannot help but observe that much of the overall message of the Gospels and the rest of the NT are not followed particularly well be most people who claim to be Christian. For example, in spite of being told "take no thought for the morrow," everybody is constantly worrying about it, and in spite of being warned that it is damned near impossible for a rich man to get into heaven, far too many are striving far too hard to be just that -- rich. And the NT is extremely clear about one thing: the Parousia was imminent -- so much so that there really was no point in even getting married, unless you couldn't contain yourself.

(And by the way, I've also read the apologetics that try to explain all that away, and find them generally specious and self-serving.)
Its like (only far stronger) like being in love. If you never have been you question its existence, once having been you know it.
The same can be said of infatuation, which is far too often mistaken for love. It is, unfortunately, based to much on surface matter and not enough depth.
You are again describing something other than Christianity then condemning Christianity for it. We are only responsible for the revelation we have been exposed to. I am not an expert on this issue. I recommend William Craig's book on the problem of the unevangelised. However I will give one example. The Jews were required to have faith in a future messiah, just the same as the Christian is to have in a past messiah. This is referred to as progressive revelation.
Craig is the worst of the lying apologists -- one that I would accuse of doing a lot more eisegesis than exegesis. ("Reading into" rather than "reading out of.") No doubt he believes himself to be totally honest. I unfortunately do not.

That being said I am perfectly aware that we are all strongly emotionally motivated to accept what confirms our existing beliefs, and reject what contradicts them. I'm the same, no doubt. But I think that I work very hard to spot my cognitive dissonances, and to deal with them analytically.

And as a result, it is my considered belief that most revelation is in fact largely wishful thinking mixed with fundamental errors in reasoning, largely brought about by our own biases.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I'm responding to the common notion that Hell is a realm of eternal torture and is the consequence for non belief. I'm not sure how others "thinking and feeling as you do" relates to that.

But being surrounded by people who think and feel the same way would probably get boring after awhile and that would probably, eventually (if ironically) feel like torture.
I believe we end up alongside others....that think and feel just as we do

How else to be happy?
How else to be fair?

you mention torture.....as a possible consequence of boredom

maybe

but living at length with people that don't like you
would be torture from the onset

perhaps it all ends in misery?

no hope for peace?
 
Top