The Only Rule is Don't Get Caught

[The Sum of Awe]

Look at it this way: Does that you think that "one person's opinion doesn't matter" actually matter? You think it doesn't, and I disagree. So if neither of us has an opinion that matters--indeed, if nobody in the universe has an opinion that can matter--then what's the point of them? Why do they exist? Why does anything get done about opinions?

You're making the world meaningless with your opinion--that's an effect.

The world has always been meaningless, unless you can prove otherwise...

But why opinions exist: Ignorance and fear of getting hurt, they haven't always existed, the neanderthals probably didn't have any form of justice system.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Man, I've witnessed some existentialist breakdowns before, but this has to rank up there with some of the biggest I've seen.

What I see isn't so much as a moral or ethical code as a hidden agenda that isn't so hidden anymore.

 

[Willamena]

The world has always been meaningless, unless you can prove otherwise...

Your sentence is meaningful. And I disagree with it.

But why opinions exist: Ignorance and fear of getting hurt, they haven't always existed, the neanderthals probably didn't have any form of justice system.

Does the opinion you've expressed here exist because of ignorance and fear of getting hurt? What are you ignorant of or afraid of?

Problems arise when we mistake our descriptions of the world for the world, our words for reality. I do agree that the Neanderthals probably lived in a far different world than we do, living mostly as we do in our descriptions.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Man, I've witnessed some existentialist breakdowns before, but this has to rank up there with some of the biggest I've seen.

What I see isn't so much as a moral or ethical code as a hidden agenda that isn't so hidden anymore.

Not sure what you mean by hidden agenda

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Your sentence is meaningful. And I disagree with it.

No my sentence was not meaningful, again please prove it.

Does the opinion you've expressed here exist because of ignorance and fear of getting hurt? What are you ignorant of or afraid of?

I didn't express any moral opinions.

 

[Willamena]

No my sentence was not meaningful, again please prove it.

I understood it just fine.

I didn't express any moral opinions.

Ah, didn't catch the qualifer, sorry.

So only moral opinions don't count?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Not sure what you mean by hidden agenda

It's what you are seeking to accomplish while engaging in the endeavor alone and without admitting it. Everybody has one, and it coincides with how we view the world and our relationship with it.

Regarding your comments on the world around us and us in it as meaningless, I agree. Although I see that reality and life has no inherent meaning, and that we all attribute a meaning to it day in and day out as long as we are sentient and have the ability to do so.

So, you're view in the world being meaningless is your meaning of it. Negating other meanings of phenomena doesn't mean you've erased meaning from the universe. You've only added your own perspective to it all.

 

[Willamena]

Regarding your comments on the world around us and us in it as meaningless, I agree. Although I see that reality and life has no inherent meaning, and that we all attribute a meaning to it day in and day out as long as we are sentient and have the ability to do so.

So, you're view in the world being meaningless is your meaning of it. Negating other meanings of phenomena doesn't mean you've erased meaning from the universe. You've only added your own perspective to it all.

My angle: that doesn't equate to "meaninglessness" at all, unless the opinion is required to be objective. It simply isn't.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I understood it just fine.

You are to the universe what a quark is to the galaxy

Ah, didn't catch the qualifer, sorry.

So only moral opinions don't count?

I'm not really in the mood for discussing that other opinions don't count.

It's what you are seeking to accomplish while engaging in the endeavor alone and without admitting it. Everybody has one, and it coincides with how we view the world and our relationship with it.

There's nothing really to engage in, there is no endeavor, it's simply that you accept life has no important morals and get rid of yours'.

Regarding your comments on the world around us and us in it as meaningless, I agree. Although I see that reality and life has no inherent meaning, and that we all attribute a meaning to it day in and day out as long as we are sentient and have the ability to do so

.

Attributing a meaning has no meaning, though. The meaning we give it is meaningless.

So, you're view in the world being meaningless is your meaning of it. Negating other meanings of phenomena doesn't mean you've erased meaning from the universe. You've only added your own perspective to it all.

I'm not trying to erase them, though, I'm trying to show everyone that there's no meaning to erase, because whatever meaning they have, whether it be a negative meaning (the world sucks, watch it burn) or a positive meaning (the world is beautiful, give it flowers) it is only in their head, it's imaginary. They're blinding themselves from the real thing, and it annoys me because the very same people say the believe the sad truth is better than a fun lie.

 

[Willamena]

You are to the universe what a quark is to the galaxy

I am a quark, a galaxy and a universe.

 

[jasonwill2]

But the rule is to not get caught, thus you will avoid whatever it is that will get you caught. If you feel like you'll get caught killing someone then don't kill someone, it has a fair chance that you will become immoral to yourself. Thus nothing to worry about, if you want to avoid getting caught, and know when to stop and all, then you have no worry.

But if you murder someone won't they catch you? I have tried to rationalize this rule wiht adding to it... but always comes out to "do whatever you want so long as no one is hurt", because to truly get away without being caught... is to harm no one who doesn't deserve it. Consider: you will catch yourself and need to live with and make peace with your own consequences, either today, tomorrow, or when thinking about your life on your deathbed.

lol.

But I wasn't really avoiding a real issue, I can understand why she was angry, just think that she wouldn't be if she listened.

You broke the law! Why shouldn't she be worried and upset that her son could go to jail?!

I am a quark, a galaxy and a universe.

I am a god.

 

[Riverwolf]

Not all people get along with their peers.

Not friends, then.

I'm pretty sure, I have a lot of friends but we aren't a single group or anything, anyone will hang out with whoever they will.

Cliques can share people.

If you understood their ethical opinion, why disagree?

Because it's still incorrect.

Our terms are not even 1% of importance on behalf of the universe.

But they are 100% important on behalf of us.

That's the viewpoint from which ethics and morality is derived.

It would be relative, if not to depend on an individual member of the species, amongst different species as well. Thus, to ALL of the living and nonliving, the all in all, grand scheme of things, whatever you call it, it would be a meaningless act, it wouldn't matter. In the same way killing a single fly doesn't matter to us.

It matters to the individuals. The big picture is made up of many little pictures, and it is from that perspective that we derive ethics and morality.

There's a story of a Sage who's on a beach full of starfish, and he's throwing them back into the ocean, one by one. A younger man comes up and tells the Sage that what he's doing doesn't matter, since he'll never get to all the starfish before most of them die. The Sage picks up another starfish, chucks it into the ocean, and tells the younger man, "It mattered to that one."

Explain a little more into this please

Love is not something that loses worth as it's applied to more people, since it involves compassion and the desire for the well-being of those to whom its directed. Therefore, giving this emotion to all people does not diminish its worth.

 

[Erebus]

But the rule is to not get caught, thus you will avoid whatever it is that will get you caught. If you feel like you'll get caught killing someone then don't kill someone, it has a fair chance that you will become immoral to yourself. Thus nothing to worry about, if you want to avoid getting caught, and know when to stop and all, then you have no worry.

That doesn't make sense in light of the fact that A. You were doing something illegal that you could be caught doing and B. You were caught doing it! The only surefire way of not being caught doing something illegal/taboo/harmful is to not do any of it in the first place. This of course means you have to follow the rules and the paradox spirals out of control.

Now I'll admit "try not to get caught" is rule one if you're looking to do something naughty however as a rule to live by it just doesn't work. You have to go a little further with your "ultimately it's all meaningless" line of thought.
Yes ultimately the world's most sadistic killers will be dust along with selfless philanthropists, but that's a while off yet. You have to consider the here and now. What do you value? What are your goals? How will you go about achieving them? It doesn't really matter if you don't care how other people feel, they're still going to be a part of your everyday life and you need to figure out a way of handling them... preferably in a manner that won't bring a whole load of faeces down on your own head.

 

[jasonwill2]

If I can rape someone and get away with it, is it still wrong?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

But if you murder someone won't they catch you? I have tried to rationalize this rule wiht adding to it... but always comes out to "do whatever you want so long as no one is hurt", because to truly get away without being caught... is to harm no one who doesn't deserve it. Consider: you will catch yourself and need to live with and make peace with your own consequences, either today, tomorrow, or when thinking about your life on your deathbed.

If you feel you would get caught committing a murder, then it would be immoral to you because you would get caught. If you're confident about not getting caught it is not immoral.

You broke the law! Why shouldn't she be worried and upset that her son could go to jail?!

Because I wouldn't get caught...

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Not friends, then.

Semantics.

Because it's still incorrect.

To you.

But they are 100% important on behalf of us.

We are unimportant why does what's important to us matter?

That's the viewpoint from which ethics and morality is derived.

You didn't read it right...

It matters to the individuals. The big picture is made up of many little pictures, and it is from that perspective that we derive ethics and morality.

Cool. We still don't matter.

There's a story of a Sage who's on a beach full of starfish, and he's throwing them back into the ocean, one by one. A younger man comes up and tells the Sage that what he's doing doesn't matter, since he'll never get to all the starfish before most of them die. The Sage picks up another starfish, chucks it into the ocean, and tells the younger man, "It mattered to that one."

I posted this story on another thread.

That's nothing compared to how small we are. It's like throwing one little pixel in of a picture that takes up space in the entire solar system back in. Without it, it wouldn't have made any difference.

Love is not something that loses worth as it's applied to more people, since it involves compassion and the desire for the well-being of those to whom its directed. Therefore, giving this emotion to all people does not diminish its worth.

Then it's not love.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

That doesn't make sense in light of the fact that A. You were doing something illegal that you could be caught doing and B. You were caught doing it! The only surefire way of not being caught doing something illegal/taboo/harmful is to not do any of it in the first place. This of course means you have to follow the rules and the paradox spirals out of control.

You could get caught doing anything, including stealing the cookie from the cookie jar, but that doesn't stop you if you're confident you're safe from getting caught.

I didn't get caught in the way it mattered to me, I would only just avoid going to jail.

Sure a person can get caught with this moral code, but it must be when they weren't aware they would get caught. Sometimes people break their moral code on accident, in fact it's not uncommon.

Now I'll admit "try not to get caught" is rule one if you're looking to do something naughty however as a rule to live by it just doesn't work. You have to go a little further with your "ultimately it's all meaningless" line of thought.

Why so?

Yes ultimately the world's most sadistic killers will be dust along with selfless philanthropists, but that's a while off yet. You have to consider the here and now. What do you value? What are your goals? How will you go about achieving them? It doesn't really matter if you don't care how other people feel, they're still going to be a part of your everyday life and you need to figure out a way of handling them... preferably in a manner that won't bring a whole load of faeces down on your own head.

Eh... that's not the ONLY reason why we're meaningless, we're meaningless even if we lasted forever.

What X values doesn't matter to Y, because he values a different thing.

What I think you're not understanding is sure I live with people every day, but people aren't the only thing in the universe, they're close enough to be considered nothing in it.

If I can rape someone and get away with it, is it still wrong?

Only to some people. Objectively, no. What some people's opinions are don't matter, if your morality is the only one that you follow.

 

[Riverwolf]

Semantics.

It's an important distinction.

To you.

And about 95% of the human population.

We are unimportant why does what's important to us matter?

It matters to us. That is all that is necessary to convince me of our importance.

You didn't read it right...

Then rewrite until I do.

Cool. We still don't matter.

To us we do.

I posted this story on another thread.

That's nothing compared to how small we are. It's like throwing one little pixel in of a picture that takes up space in the entire solar system back in. Without it, it wouldn't have made any difference.

But it would have mattered to the smaller picture that pixel was part of.

That's why it's important.

Then it's not love.

Why not?

 

[Me Myself]

We are unimportant why does what's important to us matter?

for starters, only humans canmake things "matter" . For as what we know, the universe doesn`t "care" about anything. Also, we are the only ones with the capability of deeming something important.

For example, for you it is very important to not deem anything important (consciously at least)

Why is this important to you? Because you are human and you chose tomake it important.

 

[Me Myself]

Because I wouldn't get caught...

How much of the people that did get caught do you think thought were going to get caught?

You may very well get caught. You cannot say with 100% certainty that you will not get caught, and the more you do it, your risk of getting caught will increase. This is undeniable mathematics.