The "only true religion"

[Katzpur]

I believe you should know there is no such thing.

There is no such thing as a good and decent person? I most certainly don't know such a thing. There are definitely no perfect human beings, but I personally know many, many good and decent people. Sorry you haven't run in any.

I believe that is obvious that one is not able to follow a good path unless one know the good path.

"A" good path or "the" good path? I think I know what your answer is, but I just want to know for sure.

I beleive the text descibes it as not eternal life. I personnaly believe a person who has eternal life is destined for Paradise but the peson who does not have eternal life is destined for the lake of fire.

And I would assume that you believe this lake of fire is a literal thing, and that everybody except the Christians whose denominations you personally approve of will end up going there.

I'm wondering what you would have to say about the 25 million or so people who are currently living in North Korea, for instance. I would assume they're not on "the good path" since their government doesn't allow religion of any kind. Are those 25 million people destined for eternal torment?

 

[jeager106]

@Katzpur
Hey that was a great post you made^^^^^.
I've often wondered about the millions of people, like your reference
to N. Korea, who never heard of Christianity let alone read
the Christian Bible or even knew a Christian person?
Where do they end up?
That's one reason I have a hard time swallowing the notion of
the commonly held belief in the Christian heaven and hell.

 

[Katzpur]

@Katzpur
Hey that was a great post you made^^^^^.
I've often wondered about the millions of people, like your reference
to N. Korea, who never heard of Christianity let alone read
the Christian Bible or even knew a Christian person?
Where do they end up?
That's one reason I have a hard time swallowing the notion of
the commonly held belief in the Christian heaven and hell.

Would you like to know the Mormon belief on the subject? (I am opposed to proselytizing on the forum, so I'll only post it if you're interested.)

 

[jeager106]

Would you like to know the Mormon belief on the subject? (I am opposed to proselytizing on the forum, so I'll only post it if you're interested.)

Of course I would. I love learning about different denominations
and their beliefs.

 

[viole]

I believe you should know there is no such thing.

I believe that is obvious that one is not able to follow a good path unless one know the good path.

I beleive the text descibes it as not eternal life. I personnaly believe a person who has eternal life is destined for Paradise but the peson who does not have eternal life is destined for the lake of fire.

Great. That would entail that the lake of fire will just consume people who are dead or will die within a limited time frame.

Correct?

Ciao

- viole

 

[jeager106]

Great. That would entail that the lake of fire will just consume people who are dead or will die within a limited time frame.

Correct?

Ciao

- viole

Could you provide scripture about this lake of fire where the
condemned go to be punished for all eternity?
I think you are taking some things Biblical all out of context.

 

[viole]

Could you provide scripture about this lake of fire where the
condemned go to be punished for all eternity?
I think you are taking some things Biblical all out of context.

I have no clue. I forgot everything about that stuff.

The only thing I can say is that it is impossible to gnash ones teeth for all eternity if you do not have eternal life, to start with. Therefore, if eternal life is granted only to people who do not land in the lake of fire, then we can logically conclude that whomever lands in the lake of fire will have a limited time where it will suffer.

As usual, whoever wrote the Bible, or whoever interprets it, did not pay attention to logical consistency.

Ciao

- viole

 

[jeager106]

I have no clue. I forgot everything about that stuff.

The only thing I can say is that it is impossible to gnash ones teeth for all eternity if you do not have eternal life, to start with. Therefore, if eternal life is granted only to people who do not land in the lake of fire, then we can logically conclude that whomever lands in the lake of fire will have a limited time where it will suffer.

As usual, whoever wrote the Bible, or whoever interprets it, did not pay attention to logical consistency.

Ciao

- viole

You make a good point but I rather think it isn't the writers or
modern interpreters of scripture that get "it" wrong but rather
the fundamentalist preacher and church member that gets things
all screwed up.
No wonder that there are said to be some 44 thousand denominations
of Christianity, all reading the SAME book!
Of course we all know the written word is very subjective to the
reader. Thus the individuals reading the Bible without any background
in understanding how to find and make meaning could join a church
that passes around a box of rattlesnakes.

 

[viole]

You make a good point but I rather think it isn't the writers or
modern interpreters of scripture that get "it" wrong but rather
the fundamentalist preacher and church member that gets things
all screwed up.
No wonder that there are said to be some 44 thousand denominations
of Christianity, all reading the SAME book!
Of course we all know the written word is very subjective to the
reader. Thus the individuals reading the Bible without any background
in understanding how to find and make meaning could join a church
that passes around a box of rattlesnakes.

We can only deduce that God is a very poor communicator. How can a book be authored by such a perfect being if it causes such huge basic misunderstandings? Think about it, all God had to do,being omniscient, was to use clear cut instructions like: there is no ethernal punishment. Jesus is or is not God. Etc.

I dare to say that the user manual of a complex thing like a videorecorder is much less ambigous. Are japanese engineers better writers than God?

Ciao

- viole

 

[jeager106]

We can only deduce that God is a very poor communicator. How can a book be authored by such a perfect being if it causes such huge basic misunderstandings? Think about it, all God had to do,being omniscient, was to use clear cut instructions like: there is no ethernal punishment. Jesus is or is not God. Etc.

I dare to say that the user manual of a complex thing like a videorecorder is much less ambigous. Are japanese engineers better writers than God?

Ciao

- viole

I don't think God is a poor communicator but rather man is so
subjective in interpreting what he reads.
I tend to believe that people in the 1st century would have understood
what the lake of fire was and where it was.
It was a place known to all in the region in which Christ and his
apostles would have preached.
There was no mystery about the lake of fire some 2000 odd years
ago.
Such it is with language, words, and meaning. They change over time.
If you don't know, the lake of fire was something oh, so simple.
It was the garbage dump where fires of sulfur burned 24/7, where
unwanted things, broken things, dead animals and even executed
people were thrown into the dump to burn slowly away.
Wild animals would haunt the dump to tear at rotting animals and
even people thus "where the worm dieth not and there is gnashing
of teeth".
Get it?
The passages in scripture never were intended to describe a
"hell" where evil humans went to suffer for eternity.
Hell is an English word that didn't exist until about 725 A.D.
So how in the hell did hell get into the Bible?
Long story. Blame the early corrupted church that came up with
hel (or hell) to , well, scare the hell out of illiterate people ( most were) and they would give up more money & goods to the church to keep
from going there.
Pretty rotten thing to do but the early church did a LOT of rotten
things.
Hell became a tradition in Christianity and as you yourself can see it's a myth
hard to dispel to this day.
Nothing wrong with the Bible, lots wrong with people.

 

[Muffled]

I have no clue. I forgot everything about that stuff.

The only thing I can say is that it is impossible to gnash ones teeth for all eternity if you do not have eternal life, to start with. Therefore, if eternal life is granted only to people who do not land in the lake of fire, then we can logically conclude that whomever lands in the lake of fire will have a limited time where it will suffer.

As usual, whoever wrote the Bible, or whoever interprets it, did not pay attention to logical consistency.

Ciao

- viole

Rev 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[viole]

Rev 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

I hope that God uses computers for His data base of life. Looking in books can be distressing and error prone. Especially with all those chinese names. They must be billions.

So, I assume I will be thrown in the lake of fire. And what happens next with my soul, in your opinion?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Katzpur]

I'm wondering what you would have to say about the 25 million or so people who are currently living in North Korea, for instance. I would assume they're not on "the good path" since their government doesn't allow religion of any kind. Are those 25 million people destined for eternal torment?

@Katzpur
Hey that was a great post you made^^^^^.
I've often wondered about the millions of people, like your reference
to N. Korea, who never heard of Christianity let alone read
the Christian Bible or even knew a Christian person?
Where do they end up?
That's one reason I have a hard time swallowing the notion of
the commonly held belief in the Christian heaven and hell.

Sorry for the delay in answering. I'm going to be kind of brief, since a really comprehensive answer might be more than you're looking for. But if you would like to explore the basic premise that I'm going to present in more detail, just let me know.

Mormons do not believe that anyone goes immediately to either Heaven or Hell upon death. Rather, we believe that the spirits of everyone who dies go to an intermediate realm that is divided into two separate segments, both of which are described in the Bible. The first of these is Paradise, (a.k.a. Abraham's Bosom). This is the place that Jesus told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross He would see him later that day. The second is the Spirit Prison. The Bible speaks of Jesus teaching His gospel to the spirits in prison during the three-day period His body lay in the tomb. There is no indication that either of these two realms/states of existence have ever been done away with, and we believe they exist to this day. So, essentially, those who repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on their behalf await the resurrection in Paradise, in a state of joy and rest. The unrepentant sinners and those who never even had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ await the resurrection in Prison, in a state of mental anguish and guilt stemming from the sins they committed during their lives.

Prior to Christ's visit to the Spirit Prison, there was said to be a great gulf between it and Paradise, which no one could bridge. That is because salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ. Once He had made His visit, though, those in Prison who heard His words, believed them, and repented of their sins were released from their captive state and allowed to continue the wait for the resurrection in Paradise. We believe that today, those in Paradise are continuing to spread the gospel to those in Prison, telling them of Jesus Christ's gospel. We further believe that by the time Judgment Day comes, everyone who has ever lived will have had the opportunity to hear, understand, and either accept or reject Jesus' message -- either during their mortal lives or as they await the resurrection. It will therefore be possible for the 25 million people living in North Korea to be blessed with Eternal Life, because they, too, will hear the good news.

 

[Muffled]

I hope that God uses computers for His data base of life. Looking in books can be distressing and error prone. Especially with all those chinese names. They must be billions.

So, I assume I will be thrown in the lake of fire. And what happens next with my soul, in your opinion?

Ciao

- viole

I believe after about 12,000 years you will be released into a tempoaral sinful world to try again to get it right.

 

[Muffled]

Sorry for the delay in answering. I'm going to be kind of brief, since a really comprehensive answer might be more than you're looking for. But if you would like to explore the basic premise that I'm going to present in more detail, just let me know.

Mormons do not believe that anyone goes immediately to either Heaven or Hell upon death. Rather, we believe that the spirits of everyone who dies go to an intermediate realm that is divided into two separate segments, both of which are described in the Bible. The first of these is Paradise, (a.k.a. Abraham's Bosom). This is the place that Jesus told the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross He would see him later that day. The second is the Spirit Prison. The Bible speaks of Jesus teaching His gospel to the spirits in prison during the three-day period His body lay in the tomb. There is no indication that either of these two realms/states of existence have ever been done away with, and we believe they exist to this day. So, essentially, those who repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on their behalf await the resurrection in Paradise, in a state of joy and rest. The unrepentant sinners and those who never even had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ await the resurrection in Prison, in a state of mental anguish and guilt stemming from the sins they committed during their lives.

Prior to Christ's visit to the Spirit Prison, there was said to be a great gulf between it and Paradise, which no one could bridge. That is because salvation is only possible through Jesus Christ. Once He had made His visit, though, those in Prison who heard His words, believed them, and repented of their sins were released from their captive state and allowed to continue the wait for the resurrection in Paradise. We believe that today, those in Paradise are continuing to spread the gospel to those in Prison, telling them of Jesus Christ's gospel. We further believe that by the time Judgment Day comes, everyone who has ever lived will have had the opportunity to hear, understand, and either accept or reject Jesus' message -- either during their mortal lives or as they await the resurrection. It will therefore be possible for the 25 million people living in North Korea to be blessed with Eternal Life, because they, too, will hear the good news.

I believe although there is no Biblical record of anyone going into the lake of fire early that it is possible for God to do that if He wishes. I believe I have been in Heaven and believe that is available if God approves and the person knows how to get there.

There is no evidence to support that this might be a general or usual occurrance in our time.

I believe this is not a general occurrance as some theolgists have presumed but a special dispensation for that one person, This is not a paradise on earth and I believe even Hawaii needs a police force to arrest sinners. I do believe there may be other worlds more advanced morally than ours and that would certainly be a paradise for them but only Jesus would know where that would be.

I believe the grave may seem like a prison to some and if God is not letting the person be reborn it would be but for those in the old testament it was a place for the spirit to sleep.

I don't think many Christians are going this way. A Mormon believing this might ask for it and have it be granted but my guess is that it would not be granted largely because God wants earth people to be earth people.

I believe there could be some in prison but I believe the large majority of people are being reincarnated at this time and fairly quickly.

I believe this is a major misinterpretation. I believe there is no mention of Paradise and the meaning of Abraham's bosum is obsequius at best. Hades is certainly the grave and a firey one suggested by the heat but there is no time frame on the story so one can not make generalities from it. Considering many of the allusions to a fiery place by Jesus are end time then it is reasonable this may be end time and Abraham's bosum the Paradise on earth that is the physical Kingdom of God.

I believe there is no evidence to support this.

 

[savagewind]

Dear Muffled, we all know by now that you are careful to let it be known it is YOU who believe what you write. I think that until you have a discussion with someone new, you might skip that step.

 

[Muffled]

Dear Muffled, we all know by now that you are careful to let it be known it is YOU who believe what you write. I think that until you have a discussion with someone new, you might skip that step.

I believe you are right but so far I have managed to avoid many of the infractions of the rules that I was previously accused by using the term and wish to extend my time on this site so will continue to use it although I would dearly love to drop it. BTW sometimes it feels like I am being singled out for remonstration when others do not use this term and get off scott free.

 

[savagewind]

I believe you are right but so far I have managed to avoid many of the infractions of the rules that I was previously accused by using the term and wish to extend my time on this site so will continue to use it although I would dearly love to drop it. BTW sometimes it feels like I am being singled out for remonstration when others do not use this term and get off scott free.

Usually, when I have been censored it is because of which thread I am on. I have also noticed that some people seem to have a licence that we do not have. But don't tell anyone I said that.

 

[paarsurrey]

My religion is true; that does not mean that other religions are not-true. All revealed religions were truthful in origin, later the narrators/scribes/clergy changed the teaching of the original founder.
Regards

Only Islam claims to be the religion for whole humanity and gives reasons for it in Quran:

[5:4]Forbidden to you isthe flesh of an animalwhich dies of itself, and blood and the flesh of swine; and that on which is invoked the name of one other than Allah; and that which has been strangled; and that beaten to death; and that killed by a fall; and that which has been gored to death; and that of which a wild animal has eaten, except that which you have properly slaughtered; and that which has been slaughtered at an altar.And forbidden is alsothat you seek to know your lot by the divining arrows. That isan act ofdisobedience. This day have those who disbelieve despaired ofharmingyour religion. So fear them not, but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion. But whoso is forced by hunger, without being wilfully inclined to sin, then, surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=5&verse=0​

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

The "only true religion"

No other religion except Islam (Post #179 above) claims perfection, provides reasons to such claim from its scripture, and that it is for the whole humanity; not even Atheism. Right? Please
Regards