The OT today

[Hawkins]

G-d disagrees with you.

You are not God. You can only represent yourself. Unless, of course, when you are one of His prophets.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

You are not God. You can only represent yourself. Unless, of course, when you are His prophet.

Man got kicked out of the Garden because they had become like God.

Essentially We have Gods shape, and we have Gods knowledge of Good and Evil, the only thing missing is the immortality bit.

 

[Hawkins]

Man got kicked out of the Garden because they had become like God.

Essentially We have Gods shape, and we have Gods knowledge of Good and Evil, the only thing missing is the immortality bit.

That's something superficially out of context. The scripture could mean much more than that.

Man got kicked out of Eden (and had to stay in an earth full of miseries) because he/they choose to rely on knowledge to judge like God does. Humans got kicked out the second time, and had to stay in a hell full of pain, because they choose to rely on knowledge to judge (and to say that God doesn't exist).

(Here, the same context can be read prophetically!)

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

That's something superficially out of context. The scripture could mean much more than that.

Man got kicked out of Eden (and had to stay in an earth full of miseries) because he/they choose to rely on knowledge to judge like God does. Humans got kicked out the second time, and had to stay in a hell full of pain, because they choose to rely on knowledge to judge (and to say that God doesn't exist).

(Here, the same context can be read prophetically!)

Not at all, it was the direct saying of God

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e]

What context do you need?

Man became like God, we can't let man eat from the fruit and become immortal, so God kicked man out. It's even more interesting because if the Tree of Life was already in the garden and Adam and Eve had never eaten of it...did that mean that they were going to die anyways? Whoops....

I feel that people spend much more time on "interpreting" what the verses say than actually reading them.

Mind you the earth wasn't made of miseries, God cursed it. So not only was it enough for man to die, but they would also have to suffer through misery.

 

[CMike]

You are not God. You can only represent yourself. Unless, of course, when you are one of His prophets.

I don't need to be. I quote him in numerous passages.

 

[metis]

The big picture is that, if Adam failed to keep God's Law, when he's inside the Kingdom of God (living with God), it is expected that no humans can actually keep God's Law. This simply means all humans may have to die (second death) in front of God's Law ever since Adam. This is what Roman 5:14 trying to say. That is, even before Mosaic Law was put in place, death reigned over everyone including those who didn't break an obvious command as Adam did. It is because God's Law is always in place. And sin at anytime is a breaking of God's Law (the various forms of God's Law) one way or another.

At the same time, it says that God's Law is not completely equivalent to Mosaic Law. Mosaic Law is a covenantal Law. A covenant is composed of basically 3 important parts. 1) Law (covenantal law) and commandments, 2) Grace, and 3) a scope covering a certain group of humans. Mosaic Law is such a covenantal law attached to a covenant with a scope covering the Jews.

It is because humans ever since Adam cannot keep God's Law in complete (as witnessed and proven in the period between Adam and Noah), a covenant is needed for humans to be saved at all. A covenant simply means "You don't need to obey God's Law in complete, but you only need to obey the partial law specified in a covenant" such that you can be saved. Humans don't need to keep God's Law in full but only the covenantal law to be saved because God has grace for humans through each and every covenant. God doesn't need humans agreement but enforces a covenant to a group of humans simply because humans can only be saved through a covenant.

And the Grace part of a covenant is usually in the form of Faith, that is, God's Grace is usually granted through faith. And faith can save because in the end Jesus Christ will make a sacrifice. To simply put, humans don't need to (and can't) keep God's Law in full to be saved. They just need to keep what is said in a covenant. It is so because each covenant contains God's Grace through Jesus Christ.

As a result, the New (Second) Covenant is a far more advanced covenant. Whoever covered by this covenant no longer needs to subject himself to the judgment of Law. The Grace through Christ is complete in this covenant. This covenant is permanent and eternal. The Law/Commandment part of this covenant is kept to a minimal while its Grace is maximized that mostly you need only Faith in Christ to be saved.

The same verse also reflects the fact that after Adam being driven out of Eden, humans are no longer inside God's Kingdom and no longer living with God directly as Adam did. Under this circumstance, humans will be more and more sinful as time goes by, and generations after generations. In effect more and more humans will be "sentenced to death" in front of Law (covenantal Law). However, God will increase the "Grace" portion and decrease the "Law/Commandment" portion through each of His successive covenant, until the final one - the Second Covenant which is permanent and eternal! (with the Law/Commandment portion minimized and the Grace/Faith portion maximized).

So, what you're essentially saying is that God lies. IOW, a promise is not a promise as long as one can find some imaginary excuse to walk away from the promise.

Torah is very clear that the Covenant and the Law that binds us as Jews is "forever", "perpetual", etc. If you don't want to believe that, this is certainly your choice, but the words are still there, and no amount of theological gymnastics can change that.

Also, both Torah and Tanakh make it abundantly clear that the entire Law, not just parts of it, are from God. Now, it's always possible that you may not believe in that either and, again, that's your choice. BTW, the Tanakh also makes it quite clear that any self-proclaimed "prophet" who tells others that they can violate the Law is a "false prophet".

Now, you as a gentile are not bound by the Law unless one chooses to do so voluntarily.

 

[Hawkins]

Torah is very clear that the Covenant and the Law that binds us as Jews is "forever", "perpetual", etc. If you don't want to believe that, this is certainly your choice, but the words are still there, and no amount of theological gymnastics can change that.

If (and only when) you are accepted as a Jew by God, you can choose to be judged by Mosaic Law, with Moses to be the accuser. This is forever true. However, it is also true the the Jews (self claimed) nowadays can't keep the Law as they should (this is foretold 2000 years ago) that God gives them the option (same is granted to the Gentiles) that they can actually choose to be under the protection of the Second Covenant. That is, when you are accepted to be under the protection of the Second Covenant, you don't need to be judged by any Law in any form. You need to be judged by your Messiah though.

to put it another way:
Every human (after Noah) is born with a covenant attached. The Jews are born with a covenant which makes them subject to the judgment of the Mosaic Law. Similarly, the Gentiles are bound to another covenant which makes them subject to the judgment of the "Law in Heart". This is forever true as both the Mosaic Law and "Law in Heart" as covenantal Law will be used on the Judgment Day. None of these Law shall be changed because they are needed to be intact for the purpose of the final judgment.

Upon this, the Second covenant is an option which requires an adult to have the consent to choose. When accepted, the one under its protection will no longer subject to any judgment of any law.

 

[Hawkins]

I don't need to be. I quote him in numerous passages.

You quote then use your own interpretation which only represents what you'd like to say.

 

[Hawkins]

Not at all, it was the direct saying of God

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e]

What context do you need?

Man became like God, we can't let man eat from the fruit and become immortal, so God kicked man out. It's even more interesting because if the Tree of Life was already in the garden and Adam and Eve had never eaten of it...did that mean that they were going to die anyways? Whoops....

I feel that people spend much more time on "interpreting" what the verses say than actually reading them.

Mind you the earth wasn't made of miseries, God cursed it. So not only was it enough for man to die, but they would also have to suffer through misery.

Any "direct saying" can be a prophecy. There are tons of "direct sayings" in the book of revelation too. It by no means says that they can't bear another layer of meaning within the verses.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Any "direct saying" can be a prophecy. There are tons of "direct sayings" in the book of revelation too. It by no means says that they can't bear another layer of meaning within the verses.

It certainly does not, but when it concerns things that people will kill over I think that clarity is paramount.

But in this case, for what reason can we not agree that the reason God chose to kick them out of the Garden was because they had become like God, a claim from God himself.

Why is it hard to agree that God scattered people during the building of Babel because "if they can come together and do this, there is nothing that they could not do."

Why is it another layer is added to these accounts, but to others we take them at face value?

Do you know what the problem is with interpreting? Everyone does it.

So Man ate from the Fruit, and then are cursed to work the ground, but they could have stayed in the garden (mind you the Bible makes no indication that Eden was anything but an actual place), but because they had become like God "Knowing Good and Evil" (which means what exactly? Free will? Is Free Will the enemy of God lol), they were cast out so that they would not have eternal life as well.

But why had they never eaten from that tree the entire time? Why was eternal life not important to Adam and Eve (does not appear that they had it)....

 

[Hawkins]

It certainly does not, but when it concerns things that people will kill over I think that clarity is paramount.

But in this case, for what reason can we not agree that the reason God chose to kick them out of the Garden was because they had become like God, a claim from God himself.

Why is it hard to agree that God scattered people during the building of Babel because "if they can come together and do this, there is nothing that they could not do."

Why is it another layer is added to these accounts, but to others we take them at face value?

Do you know what the problem is with interpreting? Everyone does it.

So Man ate from the Fruit, and then are cursed to work the ground, but they could have stayed in the garden (mind you the Bible makes no indication that Eden was anything but an actual place), but because they had become like God "Knowing Good and Evil" (which means what exactly? Free will? Is Free Will the enemy of God lol), they were cast out so that they would not have eternal life as well.

But why had they never eaten from that tree the entire time? Why was eternal life not important to Adam and Eve (does not appear that they had it)....

From a theological point of view. A "direct saying" is actually a direct saying only when God says it to a prophet directly. When it is assumed that the first 5 books of the Scripture were written by Moses, whatever said in Eden may not be the direct saying at all. The story of Eden has a much deeper meaning. Whenever Adam is referred, there could be a prophetic meaning applicable to the whole mankind.

For example, good and evil could mean that after we eat the fruit we can judge what good and evil is, what right and wrong is, just like what God does. However, the same day that we choose to rely on our knowledge to judge, by neglecting the Word of God just like Adam did, the same day we shall surely die.

This is so because our knowledge won't be able to penetrate life, that is, we cannot use our knowledge to see what will actually happen after our physical death, whether life will continue or not. We can only see life up to the point when we die but not beyond that. The Tree of Life is guarded from our reach (yet another prophetic meaning of what is said).

 

[metis]

If (and only when) you are accepted as a Jew by God, you can choose to be judged by Mosaic Law, with Moses to be the accuser. This is forever true.

Absolutely not, and here's why. Over and over and over again Torah and Tankh make it clear we do not have a choice to follow the Law-- we must follow it. And the "proof in the pudding" is that it's the violation of the Law that so often got us into trouble. So, what sense would it make if supposedly I had this "choice" when Torah makes it clear that I don't have a choice?

However, it is also true the the Jews (self claimed) nowadays can't keep the Law as they should (this is foretold 2000 years ago)...

It is never assumed in Torah that we can somehow never violate any of the Law. Quite the reverse, as many Laws have penalties attached, plus courts were set up to deal with violations. If violating even one Law meant eternal damnation, why would lesser penalties be there in Torah? Plus, there's nothing found in Torah or Tanakh that suggests eternal damnation for a violation of a Law.

... that God gives them the option (same is granted to the Gentiles) that they can actually choose to be under the protection of the Second Covenant. That is, when you are accepted to be under the protection of the Second Covenant, you don't need to be judged by any Law in any form. You need to be judged by your Messiah though.

Most of us in Judaism really believe God should be the judge-- not you nor I. Nor do we know exactly which criteria would be used, although Torah does give us at least a hint.

Nor are we encouraged to think about heaven in terms of our actions, because if I do good just to try and get into heaven, then I'm doing so for very selfish reasons. Instead, one of our greatest sages, Moshe Maimonides, taught that we should do good, not to achieve heaven, but because God made us and He really didn't have to, therefore we should appreciate that and all of God's creation. Not bad advice, eh?

 

[Hawkins]

Nor are we encouraged to think about heaven in terms of our actions, because if I do good just to try and get into heaven, then I'm doing so for very selfish reasons. Instead, one of our greatest sages, Moshe Maimonides, taught that we should do good, not to achieve heaven, but because God made us and He really didn't have to, therefore we should appreciate that and all of God's creation. Not bad advice, eh?

The point here is what standard will classify you as good and good enough to enter heaven. To a Jew like you, it is the Mosaic Law which governs. To a gentile like me, it is the Law in our hearts which governs.

Humans (Jews or not) nowadays can hardly keep any Law, because this is not practical in such a modern world/society we built that we can keep something like the Torah. So no one is good and good enough when Law is used as a standard to judge. God foresaw this and thus granted us the New Covenant. We can still try to do good as we'd like to. God on the other hand will do the rest to save us from the moment when we fail.

That's basically what Christianity would like to say.

 

[metis]

The point here is what standard will classify you as good and good enough to enter heaven. To a Jew like you, it is the Mosaic Law which governs. To a gentile like me, it is the Law in our hearts which governs.

Humans (Jews or not) nowadays can hardly keep any Law, because this is not practical in such a modern world/society we built that we can keep something like the Torah. So no one is good and good enough when Law is used as a standard to judge. God foresaw this and thus granted us the New Covenant. We can still try to do good as we'd like to. God on the other hand will do the rest to save us from the moment when we fail.

That's basically what Christianity would like to say.

That's fine for you, and I mean it, but not for me as explained. I could accept the "New Covenant", as you call it, for gentiles as it is certainly hypothetically possible may have one for you folks that God could grant, but it would be a total violation of His own promise to negate the Abrahamic Covenant to us, and some churches now recognize that this must be the case.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Do the laws and whatnot in the OT apply to us in today's society?

If you say that some of them apply while others don't, please provide a method by which I can determine whether a particular law/instruction from the OT applies today without having to ask you regarding that specific example.

Wow what an awesome question! This question strikes right at the heart of Christianity!

Why was the Law of Moses instituted by God (I am only speaking to those who believe this is the case)? It was to provide means for the salvation of his people.

Does it still apply today? No. Why? Because times and world conditions change. Is it really important that we don't eat pork anymore? Will we lose our salvation if we do not perform the proper purification after touching a dead animal? Not really!

The important question is how do we do what is right and makes sense without decaying into a mess of personal opinions and convenient ideologies? How do we know what God's will for us in this day actually is?

The exact same way that we always have. We listen to the leaders called by God and given the authority to act in his name. Just as the Law of Moses was given by the Lord through his appointed prophet Moses, he gives us laws and commandments today through his appointed apostles.

There are 3 key things that we need if we are to be successful in our search for salvation:
1. Correct doctrines taught clearly and understandably.
2. Access to saving covenants and ordinances.
3. Proper priesthood authority to administer the ordinances and teach the gospel principles with power and clarity.

Without any of those three we are... well... in a difficult situation. The church itself and the way it looks and runs is adaptable to the times but it must support those three vital functions. In every dispensation God has instituted structures that have fit this model. It is the same one he uses today.

 

[CMike]

Also G-D said in Deutereonomy that all the laws are attainable and none of them are out of reach.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

From a theological point of view. A "direct saying" is actually a direct saying only when God says it to a prophet directly. When it is assumed that the first 5 books of the Scripture were written by Moses, whatever said in Eden may not be the direct saying at all. The story of Eden has a much deeper meaning. Whenever Adam is referred, there could be a prophetic meaning applicable to the whole mankind.

For example, good and evil could mean that after we eat the fruit we can judge what good and evil is, what right and wrong is, just like what God does. However, the same day that we choose to rely on our knowledge to judge, by neglecting the Word of God just like Adam did, the same day we shall surely die.

This is so because our knowledge won't be able to penetrate life, that is, we cannot use our knowledge to see what will actually happen after our physical death, whether life will continue or not. We can only see life up to the point when we die but not beyond that. The Tree of Life is guarded from our reach (yet another prophetic meaning of what is said).

The use of quotations means that it is the person speaking the use of those quotations indicate that it is God talking, not someone talking for God or quoting God.

It says quite simply that we had the knowledge of Good and Evil, and we had become like God and because of that we had to be removed.

First made in Gods image, now possessing knowledge of Good and Evil like God. So Human beings were created deliberately ignorant and sought to become like God is what the story talks about. It's a common motif found in a lot of human creation stories. Humans try to become like the Gods, the Gods get scared, frightened, or angry and strike humans down.

However it doesn't say that our capacity to judge is lesser than God either...so there's that.

 

[Akivah]

Do the laws and whatnot in the OT apply to us in today's society?

That depends on who you mean by "us".

If Christianity, then no. Because they believe their god fulfilled all the laws in the so-called OT.

If Judaism, then yes. Because G-d told us that the Torah Laws are eternal.

If secular people, then no. Because societal laws are written by people for various purposes and for various jurisdictions.

 

[CMike]

That depends on who you mean by "us".

If Christianity, then no. Because they believe their god fulfilled all the laws in the so-called OT.

If Judaism, then yes. Because G-d told us that the Torah Laws are eternal.

If secular people, then no. Because societal laws are written by people for various purposes and for various jurisdictions.

Accept the 7 laws that were given to Noach which apply to everyone.

 

[Shermana]

Whoever covered by this covenant no longer needs to subject himself to the judgment of Law

What exactly does that mean? That you can commit adultery and incest and beastiality and cross dress and murder and steal and covet and fornicate and cheat with impunity?

Hmmm, I think I'm starting to understand Christian history much better now!