The Palestinian Papers

[Bismillah]

For any of you have been following the Palestinian papers, things have taken quite an interesting turn.

It has become apparent to me that the Palestinian leadership is incompetent, corrupt, and not working in the best interests of the Palestians. Furthermore, it is apparent that Israel has managed to play a clever game of turning one faction against the other as well as rejecting the most radical of measures taken by Abbas to secure peace.

Fatah has betrayed the Palestinians. On so many levels these men now present barriers as big as Israel to the future of the disposed and abandoned.

The stunning admission that PA negotiators were willing to give up the right to return. Without any consultation, they were ready to abandon nearly five million refugees. Of these people, only a token number would be allowed to return and few would find themselves established in a "new Palestinian state". In a chilling affirmation of Arafat's infamous quote on whether refugees could exist in a Palestinian state "No, but they can be buried here".

PA selling short the refugees - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English

The papers have shown that the PA is now more concerned with Hamas even than any real progress on their, always derailed, "peace process".

In the famous breach of the illegal Egyptian wall that cordoned off the West Bank and the masses of impoverished Gazans that streamed to buy food and medication too expensive to afford in Gaza, the PA was angered by the move. Rather, Fatah officials wanted the wall sealed so as to negate any "Hamas victories". What was hailed as a legitimate means to resist the attitude of collective punishment was seen as a political threat to Abu Alaa.

What is even more disturbing is the urging by Alaa for the IDF to reoccupy the Philadelphi corridor. In a bid to limit the number of smuggled goods, frequently goods badly needed by a imprisoned 1.5 million people, Alaa was prepared to support such a move.

Ironically he states "I hope Hamas will be defeated, not militarily I mean because we didn't try this; we didn't engage in a civil war.". These words seem so stupid in retrospect with a thousand Palestinians dead and many more imprisoned and subjugated to torture by both sides.

Cutting off a vital connection - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English

Erekat, the same fool who offered up unprecedented chunks of Jerusalem without any discourse and without pursuing any tangible objective with that offer, stated "I cannot stand Hamas". Another paper revealed how during the peace process, much of the dialogue concerned Hamas and the PA's attempts to undermine it. They are clearly determined to pursue this objective, regardless of the majority opinion on the issue, as they anticipated and requested tear gas containers to control the backlash they most likely expected from pro-Hamas Palestinians.

Erekat: "I can't stand Hamas" - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English


Then there is there tacit cooperation with the Israelis to strike at Hamas leadership and assets to destabilize their rule. The one particular quote that stands out is

"We have had to kill Palestinians to establish one authority, one gun and the rule of law. We continue to perform our obligations. We have invested time and effort and killed our own people to maintain order and the rule of law."

The al-Madhoun assassination - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English

Then there is the backing of all Western governments of Fatah's illegal actions, while hypocritically calling out Hamas as a stumbling block to peace between Palestinians, such as M16's funding to security forces. The same security forces which are notorious for their liberal use of torture, including victims who were later released no answers given.

And even more disconcerting is their readiness to intervene directly in the conflict against Hamas.

http://english.aljazeera.net/palestinepapers/2011/01/2011125123356396297.html

One would think, or at least hope, that given their treachery and betrayal of so many Palestinians they were, at the least, making progress in their "negotiations".

Erekat: Do I have a choice of who to place on my territory?
Livni: No.
Erekat: I have a conceptual framework – short of your jet fighters in my sky and your army on my territory, can I choose where I secure external defence?
Livni: No. In order to create your state you have to agree in advance with Israel – you choose not to have the right of choice afterwards. These are the basic pillars.
​

In essence, for all their cooperation with Israel in moves to weaken Hamas, militarily and politically, for all the dead Palestinians, for putting the state of Palestine on the "backburner" they are dealing with a country they have no control over. Let alone that they have curbed terrorism in the West Bank to a degree unheard of previously, let alone that Israeli officials are protected by Fatah security forces during their forays in to the West Bank, and let alone the thousands moldering in Fatah prisons Israel will have the final say so. Palestine will in essence be occupied long after the negotiations are reached all for the sacred commandment of Israeli "security".

Demanding a demilitarized state - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English

So we could assume that perhaps these right wingers in Israel are less prone to compromise, surely there is a voice of moderation that looks realistically for that final settlement? What about the Kadima party? The PA's long love affair with these politicians, to the extent that they consider how their actions will impact Kadima's popularity in Israel, is surely a worthy ally?

"However, the Palestine Papers reveal that Kadima's leadership took an extremely hard line during negotiations, refusing to compromise on even the most basic issues. Livni endorsed the transfer of Israeli Arab villages into a Palestinian state, the same plan endorsed by Avigdor Lieberman, Israel’s current right-wing foreign minister. She refused any right of return for Palestinian refugees. And she dismissed Palestinian concerns about the territorial integrity of their future state."

"Several of Livni’s positions have been documented in Al Jazeera’s other coverage of The Palestine Papers. There is her belief that tens of thousands of Israeli Arabs should be "transferred" to a future Palestinian state, an act intended to preserve the "Jewishness" of the state of Israel.

Or there is her uncompromising view on whether a future Palestinian state should be demilitarised.

"On refugees, Livni’s position is dismissive: She flatly tells Palestinian negotiators that the state of Israel will not help Palestinian refugees, and that they should instead hope for charity "from [Microsoft founder Bill] Gates and his like". And she rejected any right of return, telling Ahmed Qurei, a former Palestinian prime minister, in June 2008 that “we will not agree to 194”, the United Nations resolution that sought to preserve a right of return for those Palestinians expelled in 1948."

And when Livni refuses to make the most minor of accommodations, of course Qurei's response was "I would vote for you."

Qurei to Livni: "I'd vote for you" - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English

What's more worrying is that in response to the hardliner views of Israeli politicians, even in regards to the PA's own adored Kadima, they have taken steps to further offer concessions, weaken their position, and ultimately ruin any chance of a viable Palestinian state.

From the refusal of a "safe passage" connecting Gaza and the West Bank, previously ensured and agreed upon as necessary for the survival for any Palestinian state that would link the two territories, to concessions of huge chunks of Eastern Jerusalem neighborhoods, including the Al-Aqsa mosque. The right of return was also put up on the table, leaving the fate of five million refugees in slums uncertain, as well as the most incredulous "Napkin map".

"The Palestinian Authority proposed an unprecedented land swap to the Israeli government, offering to annex virtually all of the illegal Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem.

Not only did the Israeli government offer no concessions in return, but – as The Palestine Papers now reveal – it responded with an even more aggressive land swap: Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert wanted to annex more than 10% of the West Bank (including the major settlements in Ma’ale Adumim, Ariel and elsewhere), in exchange for sparsely-populated farmland along the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

Abbas was not allowed to keep a copy of the map, and so the 73-year-old Palestinian president had to sketch a copy by hand on a napkin."

The "napkin map" revealed - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English
Erekat's solution for the Haram - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English

 

[Bismillah]

Where does that leave any pending Palestinian state? A state stripped of its sovereignty, a state robbed of its most important religious shrine, a state that has given up on its right to Eastern Jerusalem, a state that will eventually suffer the same fate as Eastern and Western Pakistan with the collapse of the "safe passage", a state with five million men women and children identified as Palestinian yet only allowed in their "Palestine" in coffins, and a state that is and will be locked in a most bitter civil war.

Fatah has abandoned any attempts to unity, smiled and held hands with Hamas officials vowing for rekindled ties, and allowed themselves to be turned against the other; bowing to Israeli and U.S pressure. And for what reason? So that the IDF can continue to occupy their country for an indefinite time period.

It is beyond a doubt that these are not the men that represent the Palestinians. It's clear that the two state solution is dead. It's clear that they have lost any and all leverage and their concessions have been seen as weaknesses. It is equally clear that these concessions have been lost on the West which blindly follows its mantra of getting the peace process "back on track". Until these leaders are deposed of and the public interest and opinion is held first and foremost the "peace of the brave" is dead.

 

[Sunstone]

The papers certainly seem to expose the notion that nothing has been achieved in any of the talks because the Palestinian side refuses to yield. If anything, the Palestinian side has been too yielding.

 

[kai]

Anything new there at all? I think the most surprising thing is anyone being surprised by it.

The Issues of Israel keeping some Jewish settlements and payments instead of return have been around for decades.


The release of Palestinian documents by al-Jazeera reveals nothing new about the nature and content of negotiations. Rather, it constitutes an unambiguous slander campaign aimed at the Palestinian leadership at a time when we seek to take new measures in defence of the Palestinian cause.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/26/palestine-papers-are-a-distraction

 

[Bismillah]

Anything new there at all? I think the most surprising thing is anyone being surprised by it.

The Issues of Israel keeping some Jewish settlements and payments instead of return have been around for decades.

Really because your previous post really seemed to be ignorant of the ground realities of the situation.

"Israel has been in various negotiations for decades.

Abbas has not offered to "give up the right of return"

Israel annexed Jerusalem but disengaged from Gaza and the westbank is "on the table " so to speak.

What idea that Jews retain the Al Aqsa mosque?"

Furthermore I don't think you fully understand the idea of just how many illegal Jewish settlements were agreed to be conceded. It is on a scale unheard of before.

And your article is from Fatah. Good God kai was the entire meaning of the papers lost on you or are you unwilling to break your unrealistic concept of "two state peace" when one side refuses peace and the other is more concerned about Hamas.

 

[kai]

Really because your previous post really seemed to be ignorant of the ground realities of the situation.

"Israel has been in various negotiations for decades. is this not true?

Abbas has not offered to "give up the right of return" When?where?

Israel annexed Jerusalem but disengaged from Gaza and the westbank is "on the table " so to speak. Is this not true?

What idea that Jews retain the Al Aqsa mosque?" What jews? when was this?

Furthermore I don't think you fully understand the idea of just how many illegal Jewish settlements were agreed to be conceded. It is on a scale unheard of before.

And your article is from Fatah. Good God kai was the entire meaning of the papers lost on you or are you unwilling to break your unrealistic concept of "two state peace" when one side refuses peace and the other is more concerned about Hamas.

I dont think you understand Abibi that absolutely nothing was agreed. And lets not hear from Fatah or the Israelis we just read Al Jazeera whos timing is amazing just as the PA are gaining recognition for statehood from a growing number of foreign governments. and also pushing for a U.N. Security Council resolution condemning Israel's expansion of settlements on land that would be a future state.

They throw a spanner in the works and jeapordise the very existance of the PA and the lives of PA officials. with scraps of notes from discussions where i am sure all sorts of "offers" are banded about some serious some as a starting pont to haggling.Its a negotiation around a table you "talk".

 

[Bismillah]

is this not true?

It's quite obvious they are not serious about them.

When?where?

Seriously it's in the articles. I mean just google it.

Is this not true?

No, Israel has not "annexed" Israel. That would mean it would be recognized by both parties and independent parties as well. Such diction is deceitful and justifies the continual ethnic cleansing within the city.

What jews? when was this?

Again in the articles.

I dont think you understand Abibi that absolutely nothing was agreed. And lets not hear from Fatah or the Israelis we just read al jazeera.

The precise point is that nothing was agreed. That they offered more than they were authorized to and were still rejected. There is no "peace process".

And no, these are transcripts between Fatah and Israeli officials.

And while you and Fatah may try to down play something this significant, but I assure you Palestinians will and are taking notice. Al Jazeera is a major player in the conflict and many Palestinians look towards it for unbiased commentary. The damning evidence of Fatah and the clear underlying notion that peace is not something that interests Israel will most certainly play a large role in the future of this conflict.

 

[kai]

Oh come on Abibi? you intimated Israel that my statement that Israel has been involved in negotiations wasn't true .now you say they have but haven't been serious.

annexation is a unilateral act

i cannot find anything saying Abbas has given up the right of return?

I googled "Jews retain Al Aqsa mosque" and got inundated with nonsense.

The damning evidence of Fatah and the clear underlying notion that peace is not something that interests Israel will most certainly play a large role in the future of this conflict.

I noticed you said conflict and not negotiations?

 

[Bismillah]

Oh come on Abibi? you intimated Israel that my statement that Israel has been involved in negotiations wasn't true .now you say they have but haven't been serious.

I just posted a bulk quote. It's a pretty obvious fact that they are not serious.

annexation is a unilateral act

The act in itself may be unilateral but it must be addressed and both parties must come to terms if they actually wish peace in the region.

i cannot find anything saying Abbas has given up the right of return?

I googled "Jews retain Al Aqsa mosque" and got inundated with nonsense.

It's all in the articles I linked.

I noticed you said conflict and not negotiations?

It's clear to anyone not dedicated to redeeming Israel and in turn Fatah that Israel is not interested in any practical negotiations.

 

[kai]

I just posted a bulk quote. It's a pretty obvious fact that they are not serious. well ok if that what you think.

The act in itself may be unilateral but it must be addressed and both parties must come to terms if they actually wish peace in the region. Indeed ! but they still annexed it.

It's all in the articles I linked. give me a clue?

It's clear to anyone not dedicated to redeeming Israel and in turn Fatah that Israel is not interested in any practical negotiations.

Negotiations must go on Abibi because the alternative is ? let me see i know lets get more Palestinians killed and claim a great victory. Lets go all the way and turn the west bank into a rocket launcher too.we could antagonise Israel so much that they make an incursion and then we can clam the mother of all victories as we bury the dead.


you musnt let passion instead of reason run politics.Does it really matter whats been banded about the table --no, what matters is a resolution to this matter ,it matters what is finally agreed to and that cant happen without the consent of the Palestinian people. I was under the impression that any agreement by the PA would be put to a referendum.

 

[YmirGF]

In my view, Al Jazeera has put the lives of the leaders of the Palestinian Authority in grave danger, though it could be argued that they have only themselves to blame. Hamas will not look kindly on these revelations and neither will the "Palestinian" people look on them with favor.

Abibi contests that even when Fatah/the PA gave them more than anyone had expected it wasn't enough. This implies an insatiable Israel that wants everything and more. What is ignored is the distinct possibility that savvy Israel "negotiators" fully understood that the offers made by the PA were overstated and simply took advantage of naive fools to see how far they would go, with the thought of exposing the inept fools at a later date via an all too willing useful tool in the guise of Al Jazeera.

The content of these excerpts clearly expose the PA "negotiators" as being well out of their league. Never send a boy to do a man's job, as the saying goes. Speaking of which, it is fascinating how little mention of US involvement there is in all this. Interesting, no? A deliberate omission perhaps?

 

[Bismillah]

give me a clue?

PA selling short the refugees - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English
Erekat's solution for the Haram - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English

Negotiations must go on Abibi because the alternative is ? let me see i know lets get more Palestinians killed and claim a great victory. Lets go all the way and turn the west bank into a rocket launcher too.we could antagonise Israel so much that they make an incursion and then we can clam the mother of all victories as we bury the dead.

What the hell does that even mean? Negotiations must go on? The Kadima has spit in Fatah's face and shown how much they care about negotiations.

Turning West Bank into something that provokes Israel? Israel and Fatah have been working closely together on killing and imprisoning Hamas leaders. They are two peas in a pod. If anything the corruption and the mere fact that Fatah was willing to put the issue of the Palestinian state as a secondary to their political consolidation by means of liquidating Hamas supporters is a clear marker to the Palestinians that the Israelis are not interested in peace and Fatah is not interested in Palestine.

In fact the only one intersted in Palestine here seems to be Hamas.

you musnt let passion instead of reason run politics.Does it really matter whats been banded about the table --no, what matters is a resolution to this matter ,it matters what is finally agreed to and that cant happen without the consent of the Palestinian people. I was under the impression that any agreement by the PA would be put to a referendum.

Your, mine, and the Palestinian impression as it turns out was wrong. It matters very much what was offered and what was rejected. It matters very much how much the PA was willing to hand over and it matters even more that not only did Israel say no, they wanted more.

 

[kai]

PA selling short the refugees - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English
Erekat's solution for the Haram - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English

no still cant find where it says Abbas has given up the right of return?

What the hell does that even mean? Negotiations must go on? The Kadima has spit in Fatah's face and shown how much they care about negotiations.

It means if you dont negotiate its either preserve the status quo or war, and we all know how that will pan out

Turning West Bank into something that provokes Israel? Israel and Fatah have been working closely together on killing and imprisoning Hamas leaders. They are two peas in a pod. If anything the corruption and the mere fact that Fatah was willing to put the issue of the Palestinian state as a secondary to their political consolidation by means of liquidating Hamas supporters is a clear marker to the Palestinians that the Israelis are not interested in peace and Fatah is not interested in Palestine.

In fact the only one intersted in Palestine here seems to be Hamas.

The are you suggesting a Hams view to negotiations would be better?

Your, mine, and the Palestinian impression as it turns out was wrong. It matters very much what was offered and what was rejected. It matters very much how much the PA was willing to hand over and it matters even more that not only did Israel say no, they wanted more.

Time will tell what matters and what doesn't.

And just as a side note . do you think a Palestinian state could be viable without cooperating with Israel i mean are you thinking it could survive being totally separated in every way. and not symbiotic.

 

[Bismillah]

In my view, Al Jazeera has put the lives of the leaders of the Palestinian Authority in grave danger, though it could be argued that they have only themselves to blame. Hamas will not look kindly on these revelations and neither will the "Palestinian" people look on them with favor.

Hams will not look kindly? You're kidding right? Hamas and Fatah are eternal enemies and the only people Fatah should be scared of now are their own constituents. Once they realize the duplicity and corruption of Fatah officials one will wonder how appealing Hamas will look.

Abibi contests that even when Fatah/the PA gave them more than anyone had expected it wasn't enough. This implies an insatiable Israel that wants everything and more. What is ignored is the distinct possibility that savvy Israel "negotiators" fully understood that the offers made by the PA were overstated and simply took advantage of naive fools to see how far they would go, with the thought of exposing the inept fools at a later date via an all too willing useful tool in the guise of Al Jazeera.

The content of these excerpts clearly expose the PA "negotiators" as being well out of their league. Never send a boy to do a man's job, as the saying goes. Speaking of which, it is fascinating how little mention of US involvement there is in all this. Interesting, no? A deliberate omission perhaps?

Al Jazeera is merely the vehicle not the party. And I doubt Israel would risk emboldening Hamas' support, anyone with the crudest of knowledge of these documents has been shown over and over again that is Israel's number one goal. Like Mordechai said "We are against Hamas and we are then with you".

Your theory does not mesh with the ground realities nor does it match where the U.S has intervened. Fatah ruled by bland, submissive, and pacific Abbas is their own handpicked candidate. The U.S threatened to cut funding for Fatah if they held elections, because the opportunity of Abbas and his vice president losing leadership was very real.

The U.S never plays a direct role, they are very content to sit in the background force the two sides to shake and always back Israeli demands. When Rice signified that the 67 borders be a guideline and put it on the record as such for the withdrawal of settlements, the Obama administration said that it didn't espouse such a view, despite the fact that it is on record, to let the Israeli's save face.

Ultimately it is AGAINST Israel's interests in Fatah losing face. It is against their interests in Hamas gaining power and it is against their interests in Palestinians recognizing that the negotiations are non existent and a ploy to further draw out the illegal seizure and dismantlement of their homeland.

Let alone you discount the most obvious rebuttal to your theory. These papers were never intended to go public, they are a leak after all.

Fatah is corrupt. The peace process is a farce. Look to the Palestinians to further recognize the fact as such and the Special forces, aided and abetted by Israel and the West, to crush any revolts against their corruption.

Israel has managed to turn the Palestinians against each other all the while promoting their own expansionist ideals. What a tragedy.

 

[Bismillah]

The Palestine Papers show that Palestinian Authority (PA) negotiators were prepared to make major concessions on the refugees’ right of return: on the numbers potentially allowed to return to their homes in what is now Israel; on whether refugees would be able to vote on any peace agreement; and on how many would be able to settle in a future Palestinian state.

In an email Ziyad Clot, a legal adviser to Palestinian negotiators on the refugee file, writes, "President [Mahmoud] Abbas offered an extremely low proposal for the number of returnees to Israel a few weeks only after the start of the process."



The papers also reveal that then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert proposed that 1,000 Palestinian refugees be allowed to return annually to Israel over a period of five years - totalling just 5,000, a tiny fraction of those displaced after Israel’s creation.


On January 15, 2010, Erekat told US diplomat David Hale that the Palestinians offered Israel the return of "a symbolic number" of refugees.


According to the documents, not only did Palestinian officials offer a low figure of returnees, the chief negotiator of the PLO, Saeb Erekat, said that refugees would not have voting rights on a possible peace deal with Israel.

It means if you dont negotiate its either preserve the status quo or war, and we all know how that will pan out

There are no negotiations. Israel has show to that.

The are you suggesting a Hams view to negotiations would be better?

Actually yes I am. Hamas, at the very least, has put a pressure on Israel to withdraw and reconsider its illegal seizures.

These disgusting dealings are not negotiations. It's a deed to Palestine. And these negotiators have duped everyone who bought into the idea that Israel really considered peace. It's pathetic really, just another rerun of when the Native Americans were robbed of their own land and resettled into squalid camps.

Time will tell what matters and what doesn't.

What a cop out! You tell me I am biased and when I show you how Israel fails to respond to the most enticing of offers you say time will tell?

And just as a side note . do you think a Palestinian state could be viable without cooperating with Israel i mean are you thinking it could survive being totally separated in every way. and not symbiotic.

Palestine is not tied to Israel in sovereignty. But I know that it can't survive when Israel insists on separating the West Bank and Gaza, establishing fortresses within the heart of the country, and revoking the sovereignty of any state so as it remains in essence occupied. That, I am sorry to say, is not a country. It's an hallucination.

 

[YmirGF]

Israel has managed to turn the Palestinians against each other all the while promoting their own expansionist ideals. What a tragedy.

We certainly do see things differently, Abibi. From my perspective you are so very close to the real answers. Let's give it a few weeks and see how things play out.

 

[Bismillah]

We certainly do see things differently, Abibi. From my perspective you are so very close to the real answers. Let's give it a few weeks and see how things play out.

What is your perspective?

 

[kai]

There are no negotiations. Israel has show to that.
There have been negotiations for years Abibi just because they havnt reached a settlemnet doesnt make them non existant

Actually yes I am. Hamas, at the very least, has put a pressure on Israel to withdraw and reconsider its illegal seizures. Good Grief! dont tell me you will fight until the last Palestinian to Abibi?

These disgusting dealings are not negotiations. It's a deed to Palestine. And these negotiators have duped everyone who bought into the idea that Israel really considered peace. It's pathetic really, just another rerun of when the Native Americans were robbed of their own land and resettled into squalid camps. What!

What a cop out! You tell me I am biased and when I show you how Israel fails to respond to the most enticing of offers you say time will tell? you have shown me scraps of the negotiations delivered by Al Jazeera? /COLOR]

Palestine is not tied to Israel in sovereignty. But I know that it can't survive when Israel insists on separating the West Bank and Gaza, establishing fortresses within the heart of the country, and revoking the sovereignty of any state so as it remains in essence occupied. That, I am sorry to say, is not a country. It's an hallucination.

thats not a cop out i need to see what happens ?what comes of all this? whats true and not true? whats out of context? and all the while knowing that this was all pie in the sky.You see if i know the PA couldn't deliver these "offers" even if they wanted to. Dont you think the Israelis also knew that.

You seem all most hysterical over it!.

Still no "Abbas gave up right of return though is there" he cant even do that if he wanted to.

Palestine is not tied to Israel in sovereignty. But I know that it can't survive when Israel insists on separating the West Bank and Gaza, establishing fortresses within the heart of the country, and revoking the sovereignty of any state so as it remains in essence occupied. That, I am sorry to say, is not a country. It's an hallucination.

well lets just say that Gaza and the West Bank had the same government and a Peace deal would be struck no more violence and no need for a wall or fortresses because there's peace with a capital P.

Do you think that a Palestinian state could be viable without a symbiotic relationship with Israel?

 

[Bismillah]

[quote]There have been negotiations for years Abibi just because they havnt reached a settlemnet doesnt make them non existant[/quote] When one side has rejected some of the most generous offers, and the most generous offers that should ever be given IMO, then it is true that there are no negotiations. That they are just a red herring to disguise the fact that Israel wants the status quo to proceed, business as normal.

Good Grief! dont tell me you will fight until the last Palestinian to Abibi?

Hamas has put pressure on Israel and has been truthfully denouncing Fatah as a figurehead of the U.S's manipulative strategy regarding the region. As long as they target settlements, I don't find it wrong to condone their action against illegal IDF seizures of Palestinian land.

What!

Like I said. Fatah is woefully outmatched and was willing to offer some ridiculous concessions. They are robbing them of their land.

you have shown me scraps of the negotiations delivered by Al Jazeera?

What do you mean scraps of negotiations? These are transcripts between the most powerful figures in these "negotiations". I think it is quite obvious that you are starting to reject reality because I have yet to see you even acknowlege the implication of these papers.

thats not a cop out i need to see what happens ?what comes of all this? whats true and not true? whats out of context? and all the while knowing that this was all pie in the sky.You see if i know the PA couldn't deliver these "offers" even if they wanted to. Dont you think the Israelis also knew that.

What does that even mean? Couldn't deliver? This isn't some mid level thug, we are talking about Erekat and Abu Ala. These men can do whatever they want. There is a clear context, I have provided the transcripts, now you are playing the ostrich?

You seem all most hysterical over it!.

And I am literally amazed you are not!

Still no "Abbas gave up right of return though is there" he cant even do that if he wanted to.

What are you talking about kai? Yes he can. He is the leader of the Pa, he is in charge of the Palestinian side of the negotiations. There is no man who has more power over the Palestinians other than him. If you want to take this evidence, take this concessions and act like they didn't happen, well I can't even imagine how you accused me of bias.

well lets just say that Gaza and the West Bank had the same government and a Peace deal would be struck no more violence and no need for a wall or fortresses because there's peace with a capital P.

Do you think that a Palestinian state could be viable without a symbiotic relationship with Israel?

Yes... Is Pakistan reliant on India? What kind of question is that and what kind of hypothetical is that?

Israel has made it clear. The Palestinians have no right to a country. Indeed perhaps there is some inherent lacking that prevents them from every getting the choice to live according to their wishes. Is that right kai?

 

[kai]

[quote]There have been negotiations for years Abibi just because they havnt reached a settlemnet doesnt make them non existant

When one side has rejected some of the most generous offers, and the most generous offers that should ever be given IMO, then it is true that there are no negotiations. That they are just a red herring to disguise the fact that Israel wants the status quo to proceed, business as normal.

Hamas has put pressure on Israel and has been truthfully denouncing Fatah as a figurehead of the U.S's manipulative strategy regarding the region. As long as they target settlements, I don't find it wrong to condone their action against illegal IDF seizures of Palestinian land.

Like I said. Fatah is woefully outmatched and was willing to offer some ridiculous concessions. They are robbing them of their land.

What do you mean scraps of negotiations? These are transcripts between the most powerful figures in these "negotiations". I think it is quite obvious that you are starting to reject reality because I have yet to see you even acknowlege the implication of these papers.

What does that even mean? Couldn't deliver? This isn't some mid level thug, we are talking about Erekat and Abu Ala. These men can do whatever they want. There is a clear context, I have provided the transcripts, now you are playing the ostrich?

And I am literally amazed you are not!

What are you talking about kai? Yes he can. He is the leader of the Pa, he is in charge of the Palestinian side of the negotiations. There is no man who has more power over the Palestinians other than him. If you want to take this evidence, take this concessions and act like they didn't happen, well I can't even imagine how you accused me of bias.

Yes... Is Pakistan reliant on India? What kind of question is that and what kind of hypothetical is that?

Israel has made it clear. The Palestinians have no right to a country. Indeed perhaps there is some inherent lacking that prevents them from every getting the choice to live according to their wishes. Is that right kai?

[/QUOTE]

First off lets get this straight Abbas cannot give anything away without the consent of the Palestinians so no matter how much haggling goes on it has to be approved by his people that's the bottom line.

And here,s a fact, no matter what was said there were no concessions made. Nothing is agreed until its agreed, right?

Secondly no matter how much it upsets Arabs, the PA or anyone else for that matter that ends up Governing a Palestinian state must interact with Israel for many things. It couldn't possibly survive without doing so , it would have to be a symbiotic relationship.So lets not get to worked up if the PA and Israel are getting into bed together because they will have to,unless the Arabs are going to drip feed Palestine with money and fuel etc for ever.

That Abibi is reality.


And another reality is its up to the Palestinians what they do! not you or i because its none of our business. Other than a humanitarian wish to see peace we have no other interest do we?