The Palestinian Papers

[Bismillah]

First off lets get this straight Abbas cannot give anything away without the consent of the Palestinians so no matter how much haggling goes on it has to be approved by his people that's the bottom line.

You are kidding right? I mean seriously look back to the Oslo accords and see how popular they were. Arafat was hated and as being subservient and the Palestinians hated his decision. They never supported him then and they don't support the PA now. But that doesn't and will never stop the PA from doing whatever it deems necessary.

And here,s a fact, no matter what was said there were no concessions made. Nothing is agreed until its agreed, right?

Like Erekat said, they offered the Israelis the 'biggest Yerushalayim in history'. I cannot contemplate how a neutral person wouldn't be alarmed by their rejection, what more could they possibly want than those offers? It very seriously throws into doubt how serious the Israelis are about these negotiations.

Secondly no matter how much it upsets Arabs, the PA or anyone else for that matter that ends up Governing a Palestinian state must interact with Israel for many things. It couldn't possibly survive without doing so , it would have to be a symbiotic relationship.So lets not get to worked up if the PA and Israel are getting into bed together because they will have to,unless the Arabs are going to drip feed Palestine with money and fuel etc for ever.

What do you mean symbiatic? Don't play these semantic games, call a spade a spade. Fatah has shown that it is more interested in cementing its political power and isolating Hamas, at the expense of Palestinian lives. It has zero interest in these people when it comes to their own power. Palestine was put on the backburner, truly a shocking revalation.

Furthermore symbiotic? No, this is an occupied territory Israel is takling about. It wants strategic fortresses within this country so as to aide in a very quick invasion of the country were it necessary.

It means the lack of a military. It means the lack of sovereignty. It means the continual presence of the IDF and their own discretion of flying war planes into Palestinian air space. This is not a state we are talking about, this is a farce.

And another reality is its up to the Palestinians what they do! not you or i because its none of our business. Other than a humanitarian wish to see peace we have no other interest do we?

Obviously not. Fatah has made sure to cement its illegitimate hold on the people and that kai is my point. This government is no longer fit to represent the Palestinians and it has gone the extreme lengths of people rightfully rebelling against its corrupt nature.

The Palestinians have no where else to turn. Fatah has turned out to have cheated them and Hamas only leads to more anguish. I feel tremendous sorrow for them.

 

[kai]

You are kidding right? I mean seriously look back to the Oslo accords and see how popular they were. Abbas is no Arafat

Like Erekat said, they offered the Israelis the 'biggest Yerushalayim in history'. I cannot contemplate how a neutral person wouldn't be alarmed by their rejection, what more could they possibly want than those offers? It very seriously throws into doubt how serious the Israelis are about these negotiations. Those offers are ridiculous no Israeli would except them only to be rejected by the Palestinians themselves there untenable ,it would be ridiculous to do so.It could be a starting point to follw up on who knows?

What do you mean symbiatic? Don't play these semantic games, call a spade a spade. Fatah has shown that it is more interested in cementing its political power and isolating Hamas, at the expense of Palestinian lives. It has zero interest in these people when it comes to their own power. Palestine was put on the backburner, truly a shocking revalation. Abibi i thought you were aware how international talks are held , how people barter and haggle whats so shocking? Symbiotic Palestine and Israel do you think Palestine could stand on its own without aid from Israel.

Furthermore symbiotic? No, this is an occupied territory Israel is takling about. It wants strategic fortresses within this country so as to aide in a very quick invasion of the country were it necessary. Why would it be necessary we are talking about Peace, a Palestinian state --No?

It means the lack of a military. It means the lack of sovereignty. It means the continual presence of the IDF and their own discretion of flying war planes into Palestinian air space. This is not a state we are talking about, this is a farce. Yep theres no state without Peace

Obviously not. Fatah has made sure to cement its illegitimate hold on the people and that kai is my point. This government is no longer fit to represent the Palestinians and it has gone the extreme lengths of people rightfully rebelling against its corrupt nature. and the alternative is Hamas? good luck with that

The Palestinians have no where else to turn. Fatah has turned out to have cheated them and Hamas only leads to more anguish. I feel tremendous sorrow for them.

me too their between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Bismillah]

Abbas is no Arafat

Meaning what? Abbas is no Arafat? The Israelis prefer him because of his bland and submissive attitude, if anything he is worse!

Those offers are ridiculous no Israeli would except them only to be rejected by the Palestinians themselves there untenable ,it would be ridiculous to do so.It could be a starting point to follw up on who knows?

What does that even mean? The PA has underlying authority on such matters and they are portrayed as representative of the people of the West Bank. This is such an odd argument you are trying to make kai because it is defeated with the simple fact that not only did they say no. They demanded even more concessions so reality doesn't mesh with your interpretation.

There obviously is no follow up point. The current situation is ideal for them no separate state and no one state.

Abibi i thought you were aware how international talks are held , how people barter and haggle whats so shocking? Symbiotic Palestine and Israel do you think Palestine could stand on its own without aid from Israel.

What are you talking about? This isn't a symbiotic relationship, this isn't even a true country. And Palestine does not need Israel. A thousand times yes. Pakistan doesn't need India, Palestine doesn't need Israel. What kind of argument are you trying to pose? These "symbiotic" relations include IDF forces in Palestine for an interminable future.

The PA offered much more than they ever should have the Israelis demanded more. Simple really. If the Israelis want more than what was offered it is apparent these negotiations will never work.

Why would it be necessary we are talking about Peace, a Palestinian state --No?

You might want to look through the articles again because I agree. It is completely unnecessary, but it is Israel's position to station IDF in a large presence in the creation of a Palestinian state. Like I said occupied territory forever right?

Yep theres no state without Peace

I'm not sure if you are aware, but there is peace in the West Bank. To the extent that Fatah is coordinating with Israel to kill Hamas leadership. So not sure what more you want from them.

and the alternative is Hamas? good luck with that

Read my post again? "
The Palestinians have no where else to turn. Fatah has turned out to have cheated them and Hamas only leads to more anguish" There is no alternative. But Fatah is not the answer clearly and will get the Palestinians no where except for more misery.

And this will only serve to make Palestinians support Hamas and the West cannot say why. Because these negotiations are failing and are undermined from the start.

 

[kai]

Meaning what? Abbas is no Arafat? The Israelis prefer him because of his bland and submissive attitude, if anything he is worse! He is worse? is he as corrupt? or powerful?

What does that even mean? The PA has underlying authority on such matters and they are portrayed as representative of the people of the West Bank. This is such an odd argument you are trying to make kai because it is defeated with the simple fact that not only did they say no. They demanded even more concessions so reality doesn't mesh with your interpretation.
Of course they did. did you expect them to demand less ? Its a negotiation a Barter a Haggle and it got no where, The PA are representatives of the Palestinian people and what they ultimately agree with Isreal over has to be ratified by the people , the peoiple are the power behind the PA , The PA can promoise what they want they can offer what they want but it has to be acceptable to the people.
There obviously is no follow up point. The current situation is ideal for them no separate state and no one state. stale mate then! nothing changes

What are you talking about? This isn't a symbiotic relationship, this isn't even a true country. And Palestine does not need Israel. A thousand times yes. Pakistan doesn't need India, Palestine doesn't need Israel. What kind of argument are you trying to pose? These "symbiotic" relations include IDF forces in Palestine for an interminable future. No i dont see how a Palestinian state in the West bank and Gaza can be viable without a relationship with Israel

The PA offered much more than they ever should have the Israelis demanded more. Simple really. If the Israelis want more than what was offered it is apparent these negotiations will never work. Do they want more? or do they want different?

You might want to look through the articles again because I agree. It is completely unnecessary, but it is Israel's position to station IDF in a large presence in the creation of a Palestinian state. Like I said occupied territory forever right? Israel wants guaranteed security in the long term how do you suggest the PA deal with that.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but there is peace in the West Bank. To the extent that Fatah is coordinating with Israel to kill Hamas leadership. So not sure what more you want from them. There is not peace in the west bank there's a ceasefire and the PA and Hamas will have to decide who governs what between them before any meaningful deal can be struck

Read my post again? "[/COLOR]
The Palestinians have no where else to turn. Fatah has turned out to have cheated them and Hamas only leads to more anguish" There is no alternative. But Fatah is not the answer clearly and will get the Palestinians no where except for more misery.

And this will only serve to make Palestinians support Hamas and the West cannot say why. Because these negotiations are failing and are undermined from the start.

Like i said stale mate! same for decades.

 

[Bismillah]

He is worse? is he as corrupt? or powerful?

He is worse because at least Arafat rediscovered his backbone back in 2000, Abbas is a silly dressed up figure who can only manage to admit concession after concession.

Of course they did. did you expect them to demand less ? ts a negotiation a Barter a Haggle and it got no where, The PA are representatives of the Palestinian people and what they ultimately agree with Isreal over has to be ratified by the people , the peoiple are the power behind the PA , The PA can promoise what they want they can offer what they want but it has to be acceptable to the people.

Again blanket statements provided with no historical accuracy, the PA has shown it doesn't care about popular oppinion in the past and it has shown does it care now and these documents reveal that really the "people" are irrelevent.

And I don't think you understand, we are not talking about "haggle barter". That is a very simplistic and ignorant way to view things. These are the bare maximum conditions that the PA should ever offer.

Israel wants more.

Seriously, connect the dots.

stale mate then! nothing changes

Exactly, all according to the Israeli plan.

No i dont see how a Palestinian state in the West bank and Gaza can be viable without a relationship with Israel

What an irrelevant point! I don't care to quibble over some contrived subjective crap like that! You say yes I say no, so what? This isn't reflective of reality, the reality is that Palestine will be forced to bow down to the IDF for its future.

Do they want more? or do they want different?

Again, you didn't read the articles. They clearly wanted more, they highlighted greater areas of settlement "annexation" and generally knew that they are pushing the PA beyond any acceptable boundaries.

Like I said, Israal is purposefully asking for demands it knows will never be accepted.

There is not peace in the west bank there's a ceasefire and the PA and Hamas will have to decide who governs what between them before any meaningful deal can be struck

Red herring. "There can be no solution without peace" yeah right. Considering the fact that Israel is actively encouraging violence against Hamas, it is pretty clear what they are doing.

Like i said stale mate! same for decades.

Yeah Israel has done a brilliant job of making sure to demolish any chances for a two state solution while rejecting one state solution. They want Arab land, not Arabs.

 

[kai]

Ok Abibi just OK

 

[Bismillah]

So anyone care to remember Israel's demands for recognition as a "Jewish State". Now that we have some more information on the subject I think it would be very interesting to let the topic resurface.

The Palestinian Authority (PA) is very well aware that a one-state solution constitutes a threat to Israel, and has used the threat during half a dozen meetings documented in The Palestine Papers...


The one-state solution is generally presented as a nightmare scenario for Israel. The likelihood that Palestinians might one day constitute an electoral majority in a bi-national state - which is seen as inevitable - is viewed by many Israeli Jews as a threat to the 'Jewish character' of the country.


"Qurei: I agreed to listen to your propositions because I thought you would come with realistic propositions. In light of these circumstances and these unrealistic propositions, I see that the only solution is a bi-national state where Moslems, Christians and Jews live together […] Is our demand for 1967 borders too much for us?

Livni: I did not say it is too much for you."


"Erekat: We know what it take, after 19 years. They [the Israelis] cannot decide if they want two states. They want to keep settling in the areas of my state.

Mitchell: But they will settle more if you continue this way.

Erekat: Then we announce the one state and the struggle for equality in the state of Israel. If our state will not be viable and will have the wall we will fight against apartheid. You either have a decision for peace or a decision for settlements. You cannot have both."

The threat of a one-state solution - The Palestine Papers - Al Jazeera English


Anyone with a basic understanding of these 'negotiations' understands that the primary reason Israeli's are against the right of return is the sheer number of Arabs that would alter the demographics of Israel as we know it.



Thus Israel insisted on this clause as an alibi to ensure that the idea of a one state solution could be defeated were the negotiates to acquiesce to such a demand.


It is clear cut to anyone with half a working brain and some sense of neutrality that Israel is pulling out all the stops to ensure that while it continues to take advantage of the weak Palestinian position and illegally seize Arab land, it will forever remain Jewish.

 

[Alceste]

Interesting information, Abibi. It certainly seems like a sham of a negotiation. The Palestinian side is outgunned and without allies. They have no leverage, and they know it. They're happy just to waffle along asking how a two state solution would theoretically work. Jewish Israelis on the other hand, are not reproducing as quickly as Arabs. I think the problem will solve itself when Jews become a minority in Israel and the twisted, racist ideology of Zionism finally dies an eagerly anticipated death. I only hope an Arab majority will treat a Jewish minority better than Israel is treating Palestinians.

 

[kai]

This may be of interest


BICOM - Context - Research & Analysis - Latest BICOM Analysis - BICOM Briefing: The Palestine Papers




http://www.bicom.org.uk/files/BICOM Focus_ The Palestine Papers_ Analysis or Agenda.pdf

 

[Alceste]

This may be of interest


BICOM - Context - Research & Analysis - Latest BICOM Analysis - BICOM Briefing: The Palestine Papers




http://www.bicom.org.uk/files/BICOM Focus_ The Palestine Papers_ Analysis or Agenda.pdf

Bicom is an Israeli lobbying organisation that only exists to improve the image of Israel in Britain. Do you think their articles are likely to be objective?

I don't. I didn't read this, in keeping with my general policy of not reading anything written by propagandists. I prefer journalists, analysts and academics who are not in a financial relationship with any party they are investigating and commenting on.

 

[kai]

Bicom is an Israeli lobbying organisation that only exists to improve the image of Israel in Britain. Do you think their articles are likely to be objective?

I don't. I didn't read this, in keeping with my general policy of not reading anything written by propagandists. I prefer journalists, analysts and academics who are not in a financial relationship with any party they are investigating and commenting on.

Thats your prerogative to read what you want, you can ignore Israeli and PA responses to the papers if you like,i am just posting their opinion.

A quote by Tzipi Livni, Israel's former foreign minister, within a panel that formed part of the Palestine papers, was cut in a way that may have given a misleading impression. The quote appeared as: "The Israel policy is to take more and more land day after day and that at the end of the day we'll say that it is impossible, we already have the land and cannot create the state." To clarify, the full quote is: "I understand the sentiments of the Palestinians when they see the settlements being built. The meaning from the Palestinian perspective is that Israel takes more land, that the Palestinian state will be impossible, the Israel policy is to take more and more land day after day and that at the end of the day we'll say that it is impossible, we already have the land and cannot create the state." (What they said ... 24 January, page 4.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2011/feb/12/corrections-clarifications

 

[kai]

n 2008 the PLO wrote a paper describing the legal rights of Jews to lands that they owned prior to 1948.The intent was to have a position ready in case Israel brought the issue up in negotiations. It was not presented to Israel.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6689680/the-palestine-paper-that-got-away.thtml

 

[Alceste]

Hi, kai. You just gave me a major revelation, and I appreciate it. "He said / she said" journalism is dead, at least as far as information revealed by Wikileaks is concerned. In your article, some random journalist gives missing context to some comment made by some other random journalist. Do we need to read either of those articles? No. We can read the entire conversation between Israel and the PA and reach conclusions that are more meaningful and valid to us than any newspaper hack could ever produce.

 

[kai]

Hi, kai. You just gave me a major revelation, and I appreciate it. "He said / she said" journalism is dead, at least as far as information revealed by Wikileaks is concerned. In your article, some random journalist gives missing context to some comment made by some other random journalist. Do we need to read either of those articles? No. We can read the entire conversation between Israel and the PA and reach conclusions that are more meaningful and valid to us than any newspaper hack could ever produce.

Yeah we could , if we had the entire conversation! those papers are only from the PA records.

 

[Alceste]

FYI, I will add a link to that post, so that we really can all read the original conversations, tomorrow. Wikileaks is a bit balls-up at the moment on account of a massive DDOS attack by every government, multinational corporation and bank in the world, but the information is in the public domain. Just have to not be drunk in order to produce it.

 

[Alceste]

OK, here is a stupid and annoying interface that nevertheless provides access to the actual text of the documents.

Palestine papers: Browse the documents | World news | guardian.co.uk

I can do better, but I really do need to be off the Cabernet Sauvignon to concentrate. I know the information is in the public domain, but the fact that every government and industry in the world is working 24-7 to hide it from public view makes it difficult for a drunk to locate. If you are able to find the document containing the single quote we're talking about, I'll be happy to read it.

 

[kai]

OK, here is a stupid and annoying interface that nevertheless provides access to the actual text of the documents.

Palestine papers: Browse the documents | World news | guardian.co.uk

I can do better, but I really do need to be off the Cabernet Sauvignon to concentrate. I know the information is in the public domain, but the fact that every government and industry in the world is working 24-7 to hide it from public view makes it difficult for a drunk to locate. If you are able to find the document containing the single quote we're talking about, I'll be happy to read it.

Alceste you are one of a kind

 

[Alceste]

Alceste you are one of a kind

lol. Well, what can you do? It's Friday night, but we suddenly live in the country. Today, I did my laundry, bought my groceries, taught a few music lessons, ate a grilled cheese sandwich and went to a Latin dance class. By then it was only 10 and there was feckall left to do, so we've acquired quite a bit of booze and now I'm drunk and arguing about politics on RF. I think Red Dwarf is calling, though, and when we run out of those, there's Babylon 5 for the desperate.

 

[Bismillah]

Israel lobby 'big influence in UK' - Europe - Al Jazeera English

 

[kai]

Israel lobby 'big influence in UK' - Europe - Al Jazeera English

Shallow polemic on pro-Israel lobby | David Cesarani | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk