The Palestinian Papers

[Bismillah]

I got this far and I stopped caring "Oborne showed beyond doubt that there are well-resourced pro-Israel advocacy groups operating in the UK. Like other campaigning organisations they mobilise financial support for political allies and cultivate friends in parliament. Both the Conservative Friends of Israel and the Labour Friends of Israel wine and dine MPs at party conferences and fly them in batches to Israel for PR tours. But this is standard operating procedure for lobbying."

No **** it is a lobby group, what makes it different is the utter lack of opposition to Israeli lobbying. Palestinian lobbyists, does that word even make sense to you? Israeli lobbying is so successful at what it does that it has managed to gain wide support among the general population and unending backing by the populations political masters at the U.S's own expense.

I could care less what kind of crap the Israeli PR lobby spews out.

The first point to appreciate is that the Palestinian proposal on Jerusalem, whilst significant, was far from revolutionary. The principle that the Arab areas of Jerusalem would be part of Palestine and the Jewish ones part of Israel, has been part of the negotiations since they were presented in the Clinton Parameters in December 2000.

Of course they go so far as to ignore the fact that the Clinton Parameters did not present a list of unrelated points, but a list of points clearly labeled as "take it or leave it". These same parameters also ensured the Palestinian right to return and the right for Palestinians to a contiguous land. Of course Israel flat out rejects these points let alone the fact that these parameters were always known to be non-binding and some argue were rejected by both sides

Overall the Palestinian’s territorial proposal was, if anything, a tougher position than some may have expected. The Clinton Parameters proposed 4-6% of the West Bank be annexed to Israel as

Avoiding the fact that the number of Jewish colonists has quite nearly doubled since 2000 translating into a need of less land to encompass the same number of Jewish colonists.

Saeb Erekat "Our proposition will allow for the inclusion of 70% of settlers, that is about 310,000 settlers. "

Then again, the PA was rightly firm on the illegal colonies within the West Bank as their pending annexation presents a doomsday scenario where a illegal colonial annexation "clearly prejudice contiguity, water aquifers, and the viability of Palestine".

The Palestinians are presenting a map with a 1.9% land swap, in response to an initial 7.3% map tabled by Israel, upon which the parties continued to work subsequently. A few months later, as shown in another of the leaked papers, then Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert proposed to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas a 6.8% landswap, which appears to be an Israeli attempt to bridge the gaps.

A complete red herring. They are distracting the real purpose of the offer, the annexation of Jewish colonies in Eastern Jerusalem, with the accompanying colonies in the West Bank. Furthermore, in return for the giant colonies which the Palestinians are expected to concede Israeli delegation offered up sparsely populated farmland along the original Green Line.

Third, the Israeli side did not ‘reject’ the Palestinian offer presented in this meeting. Livni thanks the Palestinians for the offer and acknowledges that it must have been difficult for the Palestinians to table it. She states that it is unacceptable because of the settlements it excludes. However, she does not reject it ‘out of hand’ as the Guardian claims. Instead she suggests ‘the experts sit together and discuss the gaps and differences between the two maps.’ Rather than showing inflexibility, Livni tells the Palestinians, ‘we have a reason to continue’ and later adds, ‘The question is how to be creative.’

Quite obviously they didn't reject the offer. No they did one better, they turned the tables and made a counter offer that was even more stringent in the face of Palestinian acquiescence I could care less what types of optimistic garbage this women spews later on, I have previously posted links to her deceit and her strong arming tactics.

Fourth, the claim made by the Guardian that the Palestinian side offered all Jewish neighbourhoods of Jerusalem other than Har Homa is misleading. Palestinian negotiator Ahmed Qureia (Abu Ala) tries to sell his offer at first by presenting it in this way, but it becomes clear later in the document that the offer does not include numerous other neighbourhoods, such as Givat Ze’ev and Ma’ale Adumim. Furthermore, the Guardian fails to highlight that the Palestinian side demand in return for their offer, sovereign Israeli territory of equivalent size and quality in the Jerusalem area.

Obviously not, for that would completely encircle the city of "Palestinian" Jerusalem from the rest of Palestine. It is also very disingenuous because the later colonies BICOM tacks on such as Ma'ale Adumim are not established portions of Jerusalem.

Ereket - " There is a settlement belt around Jerusalem and work is done everyday to complete it. Only yesterday Minister of Housing Ze’ev Boim announced a plan to build 1300 residential units on land in Beit Hanina in order to connect Giv’at Ze’ev settlement in Jerusalem. This is not a way to achieve progress in the negotiations."

"Our problem [Maale Adumim] is not in the kilometers, but the settlement block Jerusalem from the East, and from the south there are Kidar and Jabal Abu Ghneim settlements that block Jerusalem. There is a settlement belt around Jerusalem."

As for territory in the "Jerusalem area" it is again a misleading term that would lead one to think that the topic is actual neighborhoods in Jerusalem but rather reflects land from the 1967 treaty. There is no specific mention of such an exchange but rather they talk of compensations and

"The Israeli prime minister proposed in exchange 5% from the land of Israel in the desert area located south of Hebron and north of the Gaza Strip."

Erekat's statement regarding the ‘biggest Yerushalayim’ is little more than a standard negotiating tactic to embellish the significance of the offer and to cast it in terms that the other side may find acceptable. He is, in fact, doing what any effective negotiator does when trying to bridge gaps, by seeking to convince the Israeli side that for the first time their capital will be internationally recognised. He is not diminishing in any way the Palestinian claim that Jerusalem (Al Quds) must also be the capital of Palestine.

How idiotic, these are the most historic concessions for which they secured nothing in return but further demands by Israel for more land

Dekel: I do not have permission to discuss Jerusalem without knowing what arrangements will be in Jerusalem.
Al-Abed: And Abu Ala said we cannot discuss Ma’ale Adumim.
Dekel: So let’s eat lunch together, and let them [leaders] decide what to do.
​

Simply put the Israeli side decided that Jerusalem was off the table and the Palestinians let these concessions slip by without pressing for anything more.

Meanwhile Israelis continue to illegally colonize Arab land and insist on annexing that land, every day.

 

[Bismillah]

I have a question would you label Hamas a terrorist organization if they concerned their attacks only with the colonies in the West Bank?

 

[kai]

I have a question would you label Hamas a terrorist organization if they concerned their attacks only with the colonies in the West Bank?

I would consider anyone who targeted civilians as "policy" terrorist


wouldn't you?

 

[Bismillah]

I would consider anyone who targeted civilians as "policy" terrorist


wouldn't you?

No. Then again people who knowingly steal property from Arabs and are a major factor in the plight of the Palestinians don't sit well with me. I never really liked colonizers.

 

[kai]

No. Then again people who knowingly steal property from Arabs and are a major factor in the plight of the Palestinians don't sit well with me. I never really liked colonizers.

No! please clarify? I find it hard to believe you think its fine to target women and children?

and you do realize that Arabs were very great colonizers? how do you think they got to Palestine in the first place?

 

[Bismillah]

No! please clarify? I find it hard to believe you think its fine to target women and children?

There is no colonist who is stealing Arab land who didn't make that personal decision. The moment they involve themselves in actively repressing the state of Palestine they are legitimate targets.

 

[YmirGF]

The moment they involve themselves in actively repressing the state of Palestine they are legitimate targets.

and yet actively attacking the state of Israel does not make so-called "Palestinians" legitimate targets. I'm sensing a double-standard here.

 

[kai]

and yet actively attacking the state of Israel does not make so-called "Palestinians" legitimate targets. I'm sensing a double-standard here.

No cant be , Bismallah is totally unbiased: surely being born an Israeli doesnt make you a legitimate target ?

 

[Bismillah]

and yet actively attacking the state of Israel does not make so-called "Palestinians" legitimate targets. I'm sensing a double-standard here.

Yes a double standard right? What a beautiful word to tie up colonizers (willfully stealing Arab land who are despised by a majority of Israelis, given weapons and responsible for many extrajudicial killings of Palestinians and against the idea of any two state solution) with people who happen to live on the street where a Qassam was launched.

One is actively making a decision to steal the land from its inhabitants, the other is unfortunate enough to be born in a cesspool where he is seen as less than human.

There is no double standard, only your mischievous syntax to tie up victims with aggressors.

 

[Bismillah]

Meanwhile the U.S shows it's clear worth as a "third party negotiator" by vetoing a UN resolution condemning Israeli colonies.

Is this concept "outrageous"? You think I share any pity for the "settlers" of the Great Plains? I feel pity for the people who tried to take back their land, not the people who stole it.

 

[YmirGF]

Meanwhile the U.S shows it's clear worth as a "third party negotiator" by vetoing a UN resolution condemning Israeli colonies.

Is this concept "outrageous"? You think I share any pity for the "settlers" of the Great Plains? I feel pity for the people who tried to take back their land, not the people who stole it.

Then you should have no pity for the so-called "Palestinians" who stole the land that was not theirs a thousand years ago. We are not talking about an indigenous people, but rather, the offspring of conquerors from the past who never went home.

 

[Bismillah]

Then you should have no pity for the so-called "Palestinians" who stole the land that was not theirs a thousand years ago. We are not talking about an indigenous people, but rather, the offspring of conquerors from the past who never went home.

Yes tell that to people with British deeds to property and keys to houses bulldozed.

We are talking about people who have lived in ancestral homes for centuries regarding them as anything BUT inhabitants of the land is disgraceful. People whose ancestry is intrinsically linked with those who have lived in the area since pre-historic times.

But yes, this is good I want to see how else you like to dehumanize these people.

 

[YmirGF]

People whose ancestry is intrinsically linked with those who have lived in the area since pre-historic times.

Rubbish.

 

[Bismillah]

Nebel et al. (2000). High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews. 107. Human Genetics. pp. 630–641. "According to historical records part, or perhaps the majority, of the Muslim Arabs in this country descended from local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD (Shaban 1971; Mc Graw Donner 1981). These local inhabitants, in turn, were descendants of the core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times (Gil 1992)... Thus, our findings are in good agreement with the historical record..."

One DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim concluded that genetic evidence coincides with historical accounts that at least part of the Arab Israeli and Palestinian population is mainly descended from local Christians and Jews "who had converted [to Islam] after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century A.D."[123][124][125] These Christian and Jewish converts are believed to be descended from a "core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times."[126] The study also discovered significant genetic mixing between these converts and incoming Arab tribes during the first millennium AD, as well as parallel genetic mixing of the Jewish population with the local peoples throughout the Jewish diaspora.[12

A follow-up study by Oppenheim found that in addition to being closely related to Israeli and Palestinian Arab populations, Jews are even more closely related to the peoples living in the north of the Fertile Crescent, such as the Kurds.[127] Given the influx of Arabs to the area that reached climax with the Muslim conquest of the Levant in the 7th century AD, the researchers concluded that this disparity was likely the result of genetic mixing between the Palestinian population's Christian and Jewish ancestors and these later Arab settlers.
Bernard Lewis - "Clearly, in Palestine as elsewhere in the Middle East, the modern inhabitants include among their ancestors those who lived in the country in antiquity. Equally obviously, the demographic mix was greatly modified over the centuries by migration, deportation, immigration, and settlement. This was particularly true in Palestine..."

In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that, at least paternally, most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians — and in some cases other Levantines — are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews to non-Jewish Europeans.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]Nebel et al. 2000, Almut Nebel, Ariella Oppenheim, "High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews." Human Genetics 107(6) (December 2000): 630-641

Palestinian people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Caladan]

Anything new there at all? I think the most surprising thing is anyone being surprised by it.

The Issues of Israel keeping some Jewish settlements and payments instead of return have been around for decades.


The release of Palestinian documents by al-Jazeera reveals nothing new about the nature and content of negotiations. Rather, it constitutes an unambiguous slander campaign aimed at the Palestinian leadership at a time when we seek to take new measures in defence of the Palestinian cause.


The Palestine papers are a distraction from the real issue | Saeb Erekat | Comment is free | The Guardian

Good point Kai. it brings me back to my younger days as an Israeli soldier securing the Erez Border Crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip, then under the Palestinian Authority.
Whenever I had time. I took a Palestinian newspaper and read whatever I could. the newspapers explored the various injustices in Palestinian society and the lack of ability by the Palestinian leadership to constructively deal with these issues.
many of these issues were not rooted in a deficient leadership but in the society itself, such as hundreds of cases of honour killings during a single year.
many of the social woes I read about, then as a younger soldier. are and have remained permanent in the Palestinian social landscape. and neither the PA nor Hamas have been able to deal with them. if anything, Hamas has been cracking down on more Palestinian liberties, of the common man and woman. such as limiting what can women do or not do in public places, what can women drive or not drive, which newspapers are to be closed down, and other vital issues, most if not all have been pushed outside our own societies by the general public and our leadership decades and decades ago if not more.
Considering all this, think how much less can the Palestinians deal with the Israelis.

 

[YmirGF]

One DNA study by geneticist Ariella Oppenheim concluded that genetic evidence coincides with historical accounts that at least part of the Arab Israeli and Palestinian population is mainly descended from local Christians and Jews "who had converted [to Islam] after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century A.D."[123][124][125] These Christian and Jewish converts are believed to be descended from a "core population that had lived in the area for several centuries, some even since prehistorical times."[126]

Palestinian people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To clarify the "rubbish" statement. Your post made it sound like all so-called "Palestinians" have been there since time immemorial. Your own DNA evidence suggests otherwise. I will not argue that a very small percentage of "Palestinians" are perhaps descended from the original inhabitants but it is somewhat silly to overlook the influx of Arabs into the region during and after the Islamic imperialistic expansion.

The study also discovered significant genetic mixing between these converts and incoming Arab tribes during the first millennium AD, as well as parallel genetic mixing of the Jewish population with the local peoples throughout the Jewish diaspora.

For the record, I am not against a "Palestinian" homeland. Far from it, however, the Israeli's have as much right to their own homeland, right next door. The DNA record pretty well proves the point. The tragedy here is that a "Palestinian" homeland was in the works in 1948, but then her Arab neighbors attacked Israel and the deal was put off indefinitely. Had the Arabs recognized that the Jews had every right to their homeland, from the start, as the DNA CLEARLY SHOWS... all this need not have happened. So, seriously... who is to blame for the misfortune of the "Palestinians"?

 

[Enoughie]

Bicom is an Israeli lobbying organisation that only exists to improve the image of Israel in Britain. Do you think their articles are likely to be objective?

I don't. I didn't read this, in keeping with my general policy of not reading anything written by propagandists. I prefer journalists, analysts and academics who are not in a financial relationship with any party they are investigating and commenting on.

So you think that al Jazeera represents professional journalism that presents unbiased information (in contrast to the Israeli "propagandists"?)

Can you then provide even one shred of article from al Jazeera in which there is the slightest criticism of the Hamas terror organization?

I'm looking forward to this.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[Bismillah]

To clarify the "rubbish" statement. Your post made it sound like all so-called "Palestinians" have been there since time immemorial. Your own DNA evidence suggests otherwise. I will not argue that a very small percentage of "Palestinians" are perhaps descended from the original inhabitants but it is somewhat silly to overlook the influx of Arabs into the region during and after the Islamic imperialistic expansion.

Right

"As fighting continues in the Middle East, a new genetic study shows that many Arabs and Jews are closely related. More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years.
The results match historical accounts that Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai. They were descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times. And in a recent study of 1371 men from around the world, geneticist Michael Hammer from the University of Arizona in Tucson found that the Y chromosome in Middle Eastern Arabs was almost indistinguishable from that of Jews.

Intrigued by the genetic similarities between the two populations, geneticist Ariella Oppenheim of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, who collaborated on the earlier study, focused on Arab and Jewish men. Her team examined the Y chromosomes of 119 Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews and 143 Israeli and Palestinian Arabs. Many of the Jewish subjects were descended from ancestors who presumably originated in the Levant but dispersed throughout Europe before returning to Israel in the past few generations; most of the Arab subjects could trace their ancestry to men who had lived in the region for centuries or longer. The Y chromosomes of many of the men had key segments of DNA that were so similar that they clustered into just one of three groups known as haplogroups. Other short segments of DNA called microsatellites were similar enough to reveal that the men must have had common ancestors within the past several thousand years. The study, reported here at a Human Origins and Disease conference, will appear in an upcoming issue of Nature Genetics.

Hammer praises the new study for "focusing in detail on the Jewish and Palestinian populations." Oppenheim's team found, for example, that Jews have mixed more with other populations, which makes sense because they were more likely to leave the Levant."


http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html


http://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769/F2.expansion

Yeah right, you are in complete denial. A large chunk, if not a majority, of Palestinians are decedents of those having lived in Palestine since the Paleolithic era.

That said your argument is flawed from the get go. The Israelis conquered Canaan and thus they too have no right to the land It is a very shallow statement and it disregards the fact that the rest of the Palestinians have been living in that land for centuries. It is their ancestral home.

Comparing that to the White men colonizing the plains of America, with which they have no connection at all culturally or historically, is outlandish to the extreme.

For the record, I am not against a "Palestinian" homeland. Far from it, however, the Israeli's have as much right to their own homeland, right next door. The DNA record pretty well proves the point. The tragedy here is that a "Palestinian" homeland was in the works in 1948, but then her Arab neighbors attacked Israel and the deal was put off indefinitely. Had the Arabs recognized that the Jews had every right to their homeland, from the start, as the DNA CLEARLY SHOWS... all this need not have happened. So, seriously... who is to blame for the misfortune of the "Palestinians"?

No it doesn't. The wave of Zionism saw with it the arrival of European Jews who have a much shakier to nonexistent connection with the land contrasted with Palestinians

The tragedy here is that you are trying to detract from this topic, concerning modern day politics of the region, to some morally ambiguous foundational period. I have a heads up for you, in the event that you are right your argument is meaningless. I am discussing the settlements in the West Bank that actively undermine all attempts of Palestinian statehood so kindly stick to the point.

My assertions are relevant yours is apologetic.

 

[Bismillah]

Good point Kai. it brings me back to my younger days as an Israeli soldier securing the Erez Border Crossing between Israel and the Gaza Strip, then under the Palestinian Authority.
Whenever I had time. I took a Palestinian newspaper and read whatever I could. the newspapers explored the various injustices in Palestinian society and the lack of ability by the Palestinian leadership to constructively deal with these issues.

Wait was this before Arafat suspended the right to free speech and imprisoned those who disagreed with him? Clearly Palestinians have been unsatisfied with their leaders for a long time and clearly that is warranted. It's a sad fact that these regimes have had the de fact support from the West in repressing anything resembling a replacement of incompetent leaders who have long ago lost their mandate.

So you think that al Jazeera represents professional journalism that presents unbiased information (in contrast to the Israeli "propagandists"?)

It is published transcripts, there is little room for bias.

 

[Enoughie]

No. Then again people who knowingly steal property from Arabs and are a major factor in the plight of the Palestinians don't sit well with me. I never really liked colonizers.

What do you mean you don't like colonizers? You think all lands in the Middle East should go back to their original and "rightful" owners, and that Arabs colonizers of the Middle East and North Africa should go back to Arabia? Or do you apply the title "colonizer" only to non-Muslim "Westerners"?

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom