The Palestinian Papers

[Bismillah]

Back to my original question: Why would it be immoral to target Jewish colonizers in the West Bank assuming Hamas did not attack any cities within the State of Israel (this being all internationally recognized territory of Israel and perhaps Jerusalem)

 

[Bismillah]

What do you mean you don't like colonizers? You think all lands in the Middle East should go back to their original and "rightful" owners, and that Arabs colonizers of the Middle East and North Africa should go back to Arabia? Or do you apply the title "colonizer" only to non-Muslim "Westerners"?

The Palestinians became a people of this land long ago and have just as much right to live there as does any Jew.

I despise anyone who steals Arab land from Gaza that much is clear and many Israelis do too.

 

[kai]

Back to my original question: Why would it be immoral to target Jewish colonizers in the West Bank assuming Hamas did not attack any cities within the State of Israel (this being all internationally recognized territory of Israel and perhaps Jerusalem)

because according to your earlier posts and your words they have "just as much right to live there as does any Jew."

 

[Bismillah]

because according to your earlier posts and your words they have "just as much right to live there as does any Jew."

Sure, they have just as much right to live in Israel. Both have a claim to land, detracting from the rights of one is disgusting.

 

[kai]

Sure, they have just as much right to live in Israel. Both have a claim to land, detracting from the rights of one is disgusting.

OK so you recognize the right of Israelis to live in of a state of Israel , what borders are you happy with?

 

[Enoughie]

We are talking about people who have lived in ancestral homes for centuries regarding them as anything BUT inhabitants of the land is disgraceful. People whose ancestry is intrinsically linked with those who have lived in the area since pre-historic times.

You, without you explicitly saying that you're referring to Palestinians it is almost impossible to know that you're not actually talking about Zionists Jews.

Both Zionists Jews and Palestinians are indistinguishable, since they are (both) the same people who lived in this area since prehistoric times. The only thing that seems to separate them is the political-religion of Islam, that links life on a land with the domination of Islam over Jews and Christians. And that is the true source for the conflict in the Middle East.

The founder of Zionism (Theodor Herzl)

Every man will be as free and undisturbed in his faith or his disbelief as he is in his nationality. And if it should occur that men of other creeds and different nationalities come to live amongst us, we should accord them honorable protection and equality before the law.

We ourselves will use and carry on every new attempt in our Jewish land . . . for the good of humanity, so we shall proceed in everything else in the same humane spirit, making of the new land a land of experiments and a model State (Theodor Herzl, 1896, in The State of the Jews).


In contrast, the founder of Islam (the prophet Muhammad):

Fight those [among Jews and Christians] who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. (Quran: 9:29)

the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah. (Hadith: Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 53:386)

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[Bismillah]

OK so you recognize the right of Israelis to live in of a state of Israel , what borders are you happy with?

I am happy with the borders enforced by the U.N resolution 242 of course. However, realizing the reality of the situation that Israel will continue to provide support for their illegal colonies I am ok with the swapping of some settlements in exchange for others.

Of course when it comes to some settlements who, in themselves, promote large risks and obstacles in the formation of Palestine I am against. And I am against swapping real estate of higher value with that of a lower one, such as the proposed swapping hinted in the papers.

I am also primarily concerned with the right to return and the obligations that the PA has over these people.

 

[Bismillah]

Don't give me that crap, Zionist quotes you sure you want to start posting those. As for the other ayats, they are unrelated to this topic, if you would like post them in the debate forum and see the rehashed debate again and again.

I don't much care for the spin that you put on the quotes it is quite obvious that any such idiotic assumption is rejected flat out by historical references that explicitly state the greater freedom of Jews, the adoption of Jews and Christians as people of the book, and the influx of Jews into Jerusalem.

 

[Enoughie]

It is published transcripts, there is little room for bias.

The bias is in the selectivity of their reports.

If during WWII a news organization only showed documents about American internment camps for Japanese-Americans and segregation in the U.S., but said nothing about the "Rape of Nanking" or the crimes of the Nazis, I wouldn't say that such a "news" organization is unbiased because it's merely publishing documents. Would you?

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[Bismillah]

The bias is in the selectivity of their reports.

The transcripts are available for all to see. And they encompass the Israeli reaction to and their own counter proposal to some of the most generous terms the P.A afforded. They do well to show the response of both the "conservative" and "liberal" parties in Israel and exactly what demands either party imposes. Aside from that any Israeli thought is irrelevant as I am talking about Fatah's role as leaders for the Palestinian people.

Regarding the subject at hand, how can borders be negotiated when these colonies grow every day Kai? What exact message do you think it is the Israelis are sending.

 

[Enoughie]

I don't much care for the spin that you put on the quotes it is quite obvious that any such idiotic assumption is rejected flat out by historical references that explicitly state the greater freedom of Jews, the adoption of Jews and Christians as people of the book, and the influx of Jews into Jerusalem.

The direct relation to the Arab-Israeli conflict is in the fact that Zionists always said they want equality between Jews and non-Jews. Which threatened the Islamic superiority that existed for over a 1000 years. It is true that Jews were relatively free in Arab countries. But only if they accepted their second-class citizen status.

When in a tiny part of the Middle East Jews decided to be equal to Arabs the result was that some 1,000,000 Jews were forced out of almost all Arab countries. These Jews privately owned lands that are 3 times the size of the whole state of Israel.

To this day, 60% of the population of Israel are descendants of Jews that were forced out of Arab countries.

Yet, all we hear in these negotiations is talk about the "right of return" for Palestinians to Israel (as if that is a "right"). What about the "right of return" for Jews? Or at least compensation? Wouldn't that contribute to justice?

Unless you're willing to look at the greater picture (and I don't think you are, from your response) there's no sense in talking only about "justice for Palestinians." As long as the Arab-Muslim World continues to flagrantly deny any responsibility for this conflict, there's not going to be any peaceful solution (and no, there wouldn't be peace in the Middle East even if Islamic Imperialism succeeds in destroying Israel).

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[kai]

The transcripts are available for all to see.

Regarding the subject at hand, how can borders be negotiated when these colonies grow every day Kai? What exact message do you think it is the Israelis are sending.

I am not sure what message their sending , i dont know what message the dismantled 18 settlements in the Sinai Peninsula in 1982, and all 21 in the Gaza Strip and 4 in the West bank in 2005. was sending because keep them or lose them it didn't really matter to the peace process, not with the Palestinians anyway.

Oh dont get me wrong Egypt and Jordan pulled the rug out from under the Arab/Muslim population in Gaza and the West Bank by cutting and running from their territories and leaving them to deal with it as a separate entity.

To be honest i have been looking at this for most of my life and i as an individual just dont really get any of the messages either side are sending each other.

 

[Bismillah]

Zionists actively promote a racist apartheid solution of stealing Arab land. Well known Zionists have recognized and expressed that the objective is to dispossess the Arabs to establish a Jewish state. This is an extensive and unrelated topic, stop derailing this thread.

 

[Bismillah]

I am not sure what message their sending , i dont know what message the dismantled 18 settlements in the Sinai Peninsula in 1982, and all 21 in the Gaza Strip and 4 in the West bank in 2005. was sending because keep them or lose them it didn't really matter to the peace process, not with the Palestinians anyway.

Would you like to look at the rate of colonists throughout a general time period?

1948: 2,810
1966: 0
1972:10,608 1
1983: 106,595
1993: 281,800
2004: 441,165
2007: 484,862
2009: 516,569

Total number of colonizers in Gaza, West Bank, Eastern Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.

Israeli settlement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So you don't think this is sending one resounding message :sarcastic

 

[Enoughie]

Zionists actively promote a racist apartheid solution of stealing Arab land. Well known Zionists have recognized and expressed that the objective is to dispossess the Arabs to establish a Jewish state. This is an extensive and unrelated topic, stop derailing this thread.

So its "racist" Zionism vs. Islamic supremacism and imperialism.

In the OP you talked about "The stunning admission that PA negotiators were willing to give up the right to return"

Why is the "right of return" for Jewish refugees (which are 60% of Israel's population) not a legitimate topic for discussion? It is intrinsically related to the conflict as much as the Palestinian right of return is.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life offers a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma. This philosophy has a firm foundation in nature, science, and reason, and it is centered on the core values of honesty, generosity, equality, and freedom

 

[Bismillah]

Because Israeli refugees are compensated with Arab homes and Arab land. Palestinian refugees are stateless and live in abject poverty.

And the right of return, in these documents, is the right of Palestinians to return to Palestinian state after its creation.

You are comparing unrelated and incomparable conditions and it is irrelevant as I think most Jews want to live in Israel

 

[kai]

Would you like to look at the rate of colonists throughout a general time period?

1948: 2,810
1966: 0
1972:10,608 1
1983: 106,595
1993: 281,800
2004: 441,165
2007: 484,862
2009: 516,569

Total number of colonizers in Gaza, West Bank, Eastern Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.

Israeli settlement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So you don't think this is sending one resounding message :sarcastic

yes! do you have an up to date one because there are no colonizers in Gaza? do you think that the willingness of Israel to remove settlements from Golan and Gaza by force if necessary also sends a message.?

 

[YmirGF]

geneticist Michael Hammer from the University of Arizona in Tucson found that the Y chromosome in Middle Eastern Arabs was almost indistinguishable from that of Jews...

I don't know how you are interpreting this, but it sounds pretty clear to me.

Many of the Jewish subjects were descended from ancestors who presumably originated in the Levant but dispersed (forced expulsion) throughout Europe before returning to Israel in the past few generations;

most of the Arab subjects could trace their ancestry to men who had lived in the region for centuries or longer.

ONLY Centuries? Oddly, I would have expected that to go back much further. An interesting foible in the text, to be sure.

Other short segments of DNA called microsatellites were similar enough to reveal that the men must have had common ancestors within the past several thousand years.

Thus, Jews have as much right to be in the area as the so-called "Palestinians". What part of this are you not getting?

Yeah right, you are in complete denial. A large chunk, if not a majority, of Palestinians are decedents of those having lived in Palestine since the Paleolithic era.

I'm afraid I don't need a biological breakdown to explain this. There has been interbreeding going on for over a thousand years. Obviously Jews have been present for there to be any connection at all.

That said your argument is flawed from the get go. The Israelis conquered Canaan and thus they too have no right to the land It is a very shallow statement and it disregards the fact that the rest of the Palestinians have been living in that land for centuries. It is their ancestral home.

Congratulations at destroying your own argument. Bravo. The DNA evidence points out the fact that it is also the ancestral hone to the Jews. There is no escaping this point. I will accept that the so-called "Palestinians" have a right to the land if you agree that the Jews have a right to the Jewish state of Israel. Fair if fair, after all.

Comparing that to the White men colonizing the plains of America, with which they have no connection at all culturally or historically, is outlandish to the extreme.

The Islamic imperialistic expansion was pretty extreme.

No it doesn't. The wave of Zionism saw with it the arrival of European Jews who have a much shakier to nonexistent connection with the land contrasted with Palestinians

No. The DNA shows that they both have equal claim. I do not see how you can deny it.

The tragedy here is that you are trying to detract from this topic, concerning modern day politics of the region, to some morally ambiguous foundational period.

Indeed. How dare anyone look to history for answers.

I have a heads up for you, in the event that you are right your argument is meaningless.

So.... even if I am right, I am wrong? Ah, the nuance.

I am discussing the settlements in the West Bank that actively undermine all attempts of Palestinian statehood so kindly stick to the point.

Ok, more to the point, I have seen precious little from the "Palestinian" side that counts as serious negotiation. Have they been serious? Did I miss something?

 

[Bismillah]

It is correct, I merely included Gaza because prior to the withdrawal they did add to the totals.

The breakdown as of 2009 is

304,569[8] in the West Bank
192,000 East Jerusalem
20,000 Golan Heights

Israeli settlement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kai]

It is correct, I merely included Gaza because prior to the withdrawal they did add to the totals.

The breakdown as of 2009 is

304,569[8] in the West Bank
192,000 East Jerusalem
20,000 Golan Heights

Israeli settlement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK how many of those settlements are non negotiable ?