The Posture of belief in God.

[Misty]

Well I don't think it applies to all Agnostics, just enough of them. But neither do I believe you are Agnostic , I think your an Atheist in Agnostic clothing, judging by all your thoughts I have studied. Going by what YOU say on this board, your mind is that of an Atheist, who likes the label of Agnostic, for whatever reason.

Peace.

I assure you I am an agnostic because I think it possible a deity might exist somewhere, but so what?

 

[mickiel]

I agree with Dunemeister.
This thread got off to a bad start, and will turn into another collection of nay saying.

Well I will give my best effort to contribute things that are in line with the topic. I understand there will be those who seek to do as you predict, but my intrest lay in the topic, not the nay saying.

Peace.

 

[Dunemeister]

Well I do disagree with you and I am outside of your tribe. In my view, when the bible uses the term " Natural Man', it means an unspiritual man, or an unbeliever in God.

The words "unspiritual" and "unbeliever" are not coterminous. When the bible says that the things of god are hidden from "unspiritual" people, it means people who do not have the spirit of god dwelling in them. So people are unbelievers BECAUSE they are unspiritual. One follows from the other, but the terms do not refer to the same thing. Indeed, this is the first I've heard of anyone making this particular mistake.

It has nothing to do with " Senses and Culture', because believers use the exact same senses and can be the exact same culture as an unbeliever.

It has everything to do with senses and culture. The natural man, without the spirit of god, is limited to knowledge available via senses and culture. As a result, knowledge via faith is unavailable. That sort of knowledge requires the spirit of god dwelling in a person. And being indwelt by the spirit is the natural condition of humanity, if by "natural" one means "intended" or "proper."

 

[mickiel]

I assure you I am an agnostic because I think it possible a deity might exist somewhere, but so what?

Well you know what you are, I cannot define your being, I can only go by what you have said, and hold you accountable for that. You may be Agnostic, but your conscious thoughts on this board display a heavy lean toward Atheism. And thats just the truth.

Which is interesting, because with many Agnostics, theres a thin line between them and Atheism, which is just another interesting topic. But I no longer start threads on neither of the two.

Peace.

 

[Misty]

Well you know what you are, I cannot define your being, I can only go by what you have said, and hold you accountable for that. You may be Agnostic, but your conscious thoughts on this board display a heavy lean toward Atheism. And thats just the truth.

Which is interesting, because with many Agnostics, theres a thin line between them and Atheism, which is just another interesting topic. But I no longer start threads on neither of the two.

Peace.

But does it matter whether I am an agnostic or an atheist, it is no big deal either way?

 

[mickiel]

The words "unspiritual" and "unbeliever" are not coterminous. When the bible says that the things of god are hidden from "unspiritual" people, it means people who do not have the spirit of god dwelling in them. So people are unbelievers BECAUSE they are unspiritual. One follows from the other, but the terms do not refer to the same thing. Indeed, this is the first I've heard of anyone making this particular mistake. quote

Well this brings up an interesting question; Can a person be a believer in God, and yet not be a Spiritual person? I think the answer to that is yes, I would agree with that. So now we are getting into " Levels of Belief", which I think can vary. A person who then believes in God, but is not Spiritual, simply does not have a Spiritual posture. Or Spiritual consciousness that is committed seriously.


quote
It has everything to do with senses and culture. The natural man, without the spirit of god, is limited to knowledge available via senses and culture. As a result, knowledge via faith is unavailable. That sort of knowledge requires the spirit of god dwelling in a person. And being indwelt by the spirit is the natural condition of humanity, if by "natural" one means "intended" or "proper."

I disagree, the natural man simply does not have a posture of belief, his senses and culture are irrelevant, because when God draws that man, he appeals only to his Consciousness, not his culture and 5 senses.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

But does it matter whether I am an agnostic or an atheist, it is no big deal either way?

Well I agree, it does not matter to me, and I don't think it matters to God.

Peace.

 

[Misty]

Well I agree, it does not matter to me, and I don't think it matters to God.

Peace.

Atheism, from what I gather, seems to be much more of a big deal in the US than in the UK, where most people couldn't give a stuff whether you believe in god or not.

 

[mickiel]

Belief in God is a Posture that is more like a " Spiritual experience in the Consciousness", one that is wanting a " Relationship with God." I mean your serious enough to invest your being into your belief. We can actually believe things, but just are not serious enough about it to invest ourselves further into it. In example; I believe I can play a Piano , but I am not going to invest any time into learning. Because I am not serious enough about it.

Those who seriously believe in God will invest things into that belief. And that investment is the Posture of belief, a stance is being taken that the person is serious about. That requires an energy in the Consciousness, and I believe anyone who has gotten to that point, it was God himself who supplied the energy to their Consciousness, NOT they themselves.

And I want to explain that.

Peace.

This kind of " Serious Posture in belief", I think can only come from God himself, giving or adding something to the Consciousness of the believer. Not something they gave themselves.

And I need to get into that.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Atheism, from what I gather, seems to be much more of a big deal in the US than in the UK, where most people couldn't give a stuff whether you believe in god or not.

Well there is a biblical principle called " Walking the fench', people being neither hot or cold, just " Lukewarm." And that exist everywhere on the globe, not just the Us and UK. This biblical principle is almost describing Agnostic tendencys. The person looks one way, they look the other, and really don't care enough about either to make a committment, so they walk the line, kind of stay in the middle.

And I understand that. I once said I have Atheistic ways about myself, and I think at times Agnostic ways, I sometimes feel like I don't know what to believe. And it is easy to step from that into no longer caring what I believe.

I understand the biblical principle, and the human nature in it.

Peace.

 

[Misty]

Well there is a biblical principle called " Walking the fench', people being neither hot or cold, just " Lukewarm." And that exist everywhere on the globe, not just the Us and UK. This biblical principle is almost describing Agnostic tendencys. The person looks one way, they look the other, and really don't care enough about either to make a committment, so they walk the line, kind of stay in the middle.

And I understand that. I once said I have Atheistic ways about myself, and I think at times Agnostic ways, I sometimes feel like I don't know what to believe. And it is easy to step from that into no longer caring what I believe.

I understand the biblical principle, and the human nature in it.

Peace.

If you say so!

 

[mickiel]

If you say so!

Well there is an old saying;" If you don't stand for something, then you'll fall for anything." It holds a respectable wisdom in it. Even in our confusion, it is better to make a stand and at least go into the confusion with some purposeful direction. I mean you may not get where your going, but at the least, your going somewhere.

We have to have some Posture , some kind of stance, some kind of committment. One of the things women dislike in some men, is lack of committment, I mean the joker just doesn't know what he wants.

And this can flood into our belief systems, and we just often need God to help us with that. We just don't know what to believe.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[Thief]

Well there is a biblical principle called " Walking the fench', people being neither hot or cold, just " Lukewarm." And that exist everywhere on the globe, not just the Us and UK. This biblical principle is almost describing Agnostic tendencys. The person looks one way, they look the other, and really don't care enough about either to make a committment, so they walk the line, kind of stay in the middle.

And I understand that. I once said I have Atheistic ways about myself, and I think at times Agnostic ways, I sometimes feel like I don't know what to believe. And it is easy to step from that into no longer caring what I believe.

I understand the biblical principle, and the human nature in it.

Peace.

Of all the postings and statements you have ever made......

 

[mickiel]

I can take a posture of belief toward God that says this: well God, I can't see you, you don't talk to me, if you want me to believe then I require or need both of those from you. And I see nothing wrong with that stance, its asking God to " Reveal himself to you." The bible speaks of those who are blessed because they believe and have not seen, but not everyone can reach those levels. I believe at some point, IF God wants your belief in him, the HE will give it to you.

And I believe at some point in the future, he will do just that for all of humanity.

If you do not believe in God now, it simply has not been granted to you to believe, so you can't take that posture. You can grow up in atmospheres of belief, go to all kinds of churchs, hear all kinds of preaching, but only God can increase you into levels of belief. 1Corinth. 3:6;" I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth." This means God controls levels of belief, the posture of Belief is his to give. 2Corinth. 5:14 talks about the Love of Christ " Controling his believers." Eph. 1:18 talks about the eyes of our Hearts being " Enlightened." And Phil. 1:29 states that belief in God is " Granted."

All these verses show Gods required involved pressence for there to be serious human belief in him, its just not worked up on your own posture.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[kingdombuilder]

Well thank you very much.

The posture of unbelief in God is natural, its common, its original, its normal, its the usual posture to be in. Its the posture God wanted us all naturally born in. And when God looks at a person who does not believe in him, he views that as natural, common, average, normal and their orginal state of intended being. God views all unbelievers in this manner he created them in. He does not see it as negative and abnormal, or evil and offensive. And any believer in God who is in a posture of belief, that views unbelief in any of these terms , is just in an offensive posture themselves.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

-Wow, this argument is certainly a first for me to see. Let me get this straight, you actually believe God wanted all people to be born in a natural state of unbelief and that this is what the Bible actually teaches??

- While non belief is certainly common today, it is not original nor what God intends for anyone. One of the common themes throughout all of the Bible is God's desire for people to enter back into right relationship with Him. This one theme in itself contradicts your view with regard to the teaching of the Bible.

- You have missed an important ingredient that sheds light on your view as well as the verses you have used to try to support it:

The teaching of the Bible that people are currently in a sinful fallen state. This is why unbelief comes naturally for people today.

 

[mickiel]

All these verses show Gods required involved pressence for there to be serious human belief in him, its just not worked up on your own posture.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

So there is no need in crippling your unbelief by thinking something is wrong with you if you do not believe in God. Theres absolutely NOTHING wrong with you. No need in developing mental handicaps just because you didnot fit into those churchs you went to, and your not being " unholy "if the ways of some believers irritate you. It is simply not your time, not your present destiny to believe.

If Gods wants a human to be in a Posture of belief, nothing could stop that, not even dart throwing believers. It is natural for you not to believe if you don't. Your not cursed, your not " Left out", your not unloved by God. Stand up proud in your posture of unbelief, it is your life meant to live.

And I want to get into that.

Peace.

 

[Thief]

I can take a posture of belief toward God that says this: well God, I can't see you, you don't talk to me, if you want me to believe then I require or need both of those from you. And I see nothing wrong with that stance, its asking God to " Reveal himself to you." The bible speaks of those who are blessed because they believe and have not seen, but not everyone can reach those levels. I believe at some point, IF God wants your belief in him, the HE will give it to you.

And I believe at some point in the future, he will do just that for all of humanity.

If you do not believe in God now, it simply has not been granted to you to believe, so you can't take that posture. You can grow up in atmospheres of belief, go to all kinds of churchs, hear all kinds of preaching, but only God can increase you into levels of belief. 1Corinth. 3:6;" I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth." This means God controls levels of belief, the posture of Belief is his to give. 2Corinth. 5:14 talks about the Love of Christ " Controling his believers." Eph. 1:18 talks about the eyes of our Hearts being " Enlightened." And Phil. 1:29 states that belief in God is " Granted."

All these verses show Gods required involved pressence for there to be serious human belief in him, its just not worked up on your own posture.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

Are you quoting Paul the Apostle? not that it really matters to me.....
I mention it as quotations lead you to the person you quoted.
(If you use someone else's handiwork...they may come looking for you.)

To that end...If belief is delivered only by God....
Do you share common ground with Moses...Jesus....or some other prophet?

 

[mickiel]

-
- One of the common themes throughout all of the Bible is God's desire for people to enter back into right relationship with Him. This one theme in itself contradicts your view with regard to the teaching of the Bible. quote

It certainly does not. Why do you think God desires for people to " Enter BACK" into relationship with him, because they were not born into relationship with him. They are NOT in relationship with him, and thats humanitys natural state of being. People are born carnal, not with " Spiritual spoons in their mouths."

Peace.


- ]

 

[mickiel]

Are you quoting Paul the Apostle? not that it really matters to me.....
I mention it as quotations lead you to the person you quoted.
(If you use someone else's handiwork...they may come looking for you.)

To that end...If belief is delivered only by God....
Do you share common ground with Moses...Jesus....or some other prophet?

You said this post got off to a bad start and is headed in the direction of nay saying, so that is what I think you desire for this post to be. So this post is probally not for you.

Your bringing a wrong spirit into it.

Peace.

 

[kingdombuilder]

-
- One of the common themes throughout all of the Bible is God's desire for people to enter back into right relationship with Him. This one theme in itself contradicts your view with regard to the teaching of the Bible. quote

It certainly does not. Why do you think God desires for people to " Enter BACK" into relationship with him, because they were not born into relationship with him. They are NOT in relationship with him, and thats humanitys natural state of being. People are born carnal, not with " Spiritual spoons in their mouths."

Peace.


- ]

I never stated otherwise. But here is the fuller context of my post that you ignored:

"While non belief is certainly common today, it is not original nor what God intends for anyone. One of the common themes throughout all of the Bible is God's desire for people to enter back into right relationship with Him. This one theme in itself contradicts your view with regard to the teaching of the Bible.

- You have missed an important ingredient that sheds light on your view as well as the verses you have used to try to support it:

The teaching of the Bible that people are currently in a sinful fallen state. This is why unbelief comes naturally for people today."