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The Posture of belief in God.
- Thread starter mickiel
- Start date
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Fine. Just don't think that the bible agrees with you. It doesn't. You are misappropriating the text to make it say something it doesn't.
kingdombuilder
Member
- Then you just can not or are not willing to see the implication of what I wrote (more on this further below), here it is one more time anyway:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickiel
I never stated otherwise. But here is the fuller context of my post that you ignored:
"While non belief is certainly common today, it is not original nor what God intends for anyone. One of the common themes throughout all of the Bible is God's desire for people to enter back into right relationship with Him. This one theme in itself contradicts your view with regard to the teaching of the Bible.
- You have missed an important ingredient that sheds light on your view as well as the verses you have used to try to support it:
The teaching of the Bible that people are currently in a sinful fallen state. This is why unbelief comes naturally for people today."
Since you are the one that asked for a Scripture then ok:
"They (Adam and Eve) heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden (of Eden) in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" (Genesis 3:8,9)
Before this point the Bible clearly shows God, Adam and Eve together in right relationship (and not just in a spiritual relationship either). The Bible teaches that from the very moment Adam was created he knew God and was in His physical presence.
Your question of why I can not see this is so ironic. Remeber one of the verses of Scripture you used to justify your belief?
"But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
You are the one claiming to be a natural man, not I. See the irony in your question now?
Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
Okay, I think I get you a bit better. The word "belief" is capable of many shades of meaning, and it's important we don't equivocate. I still think you're misunderstanding the passages you've been citing so far, but I can agree with you that saving faith is a gift of God, not something we are born with.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
mickiel
Well-Known Member
kingdombuilder
Member
Reptillian
Hamburgler Extraordinaire
I can think verses in the Bible supporting the view that belief in God is natural self evident common sense. There are numerous verses calling disbelievers fools and such.
Psalm 19 comes to mind as an example (this is one of my favorite psalms),
1The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
3 There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard. [a]
4 Their voice [b] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,
5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is hidden from its heat.
7 The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.
8 The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is pure,
enduring forever.
The ordinances of the LORD are sure
and altogether righteous.
10 They are more precious than gold,
than much pure gold;
they are sweeter than honey,
than honey from the comb.
11 By them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can discern his errors?
Forgive my hidden faults.
13 Keep your servant also from willful sins;
may they not rule over me.
Then will I be blameless,
innocent of great transgression. 14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight,
O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
I may be an agnositc, but I think belief in gods is a natural human way of looking at the world. For example, things that happen in our environment are often caused by our actions or the actions of another living being. (The ant moves the bread crumb, the dog digs a hole, my friend eats my groceries) It seems only natural that ancient humans would extend this idea to other kinds of natural phenomena, like the wind or rain or earthquakes. Thus you have gods that create storms, cause deaths/wars, and control lightning.
Psalm 19 comes to mind as an example (this is one of my favorite psalms),
1The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
3 There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard. [a]
4 Their voice [b] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,
5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is hidden from its heat.
7 The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.
8 The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is pure,
enduring forever.
The ordinances of the LORD are sure
and altogether righteous.
10 They are more precious than gold,
than much pure gold;
they are sweeter than honey,
than honey from the comb.
11 By them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.
12 Who can discern his errors?
Forgive my hidden faults.
13 Keep your servant also from willful sins;
may they not rule over me.
Then will I be blameless,
innocent of great transgression. 14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight,
O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
I may be an agnositc, but I think belief in gods is a natural human way of looking at the world. For example, things that happen in our environment are often caused by our actions or the actions of another living being. (The ant moves the bread crumb, the dog digs a hole, my friend eats my groceries) It seems only natural that ancient humans would extend this idea to other kinds of natural phenomena, like the wind or rain or earthquakes. Thus you have gods that create storms, cause deaths/wars, and control lightning.
javajo
Well-Known Member
Instead of natural vs unnatural, I see it more of natural vs supernatural, or natural vs spiritual. It is true the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God, but in Romans it says we are without excuse. We have the Creation and we have sure prophecies and God's Word. As Job said, he put his hand to his mouth and shut up after God talked with him. The Bible says regardless of what we think, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. I may add, that one who has been born again, spiritually, also struggles with his old nature, the natural, the flesh. But one day we will be changed 
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mickiel
Well-Known Member
but in Romans it says we are without excuse.
Oh we do have an excuse for both our nature and our sins, Its Jesus Sacrifice, that is the " Excuse" or the " Propititation" for our sins, 1John 2:2. We are with an excuse, 1Tim. 2:6, Jesus gave his life as a " Ransom" for us, its greater than an excuse, it covers the payment demanded for our sins. Its pure redemption, the greatest excuse from that payment.
I grow so tired of Christians claiming that " We are without excuse." John 1:29 is the greatest excuse in the bible , as is Heb. 2:9. Everyone is excused, no one can be condemned. There is now no condemnation because of Christ Jesus. A human can die in their sins and while they are dead Christ makes us alive with him, Col. 2:13 WHY? Vs. 14, The DEBT of sin , that way of finding a way to condemn someone or find them quilty, is CANCELLED!.
Christians just do not believe that it is cancelled, they still want to charge humanity with their sins and unbelief.
Peace.
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javajo
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:1 does say There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Note it is to them which are in Christ, who have placed their faith in him. But Jesus said in John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Note that there is no condemnation to him that believes in Jesus, but those who do not are still under condemnation.
That is why Paul said in Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Because we are ALL under condemnation, we are ALL sinners, but those who have trusted Christ are not under condemnation anymore, because Christ paid for their sins. He did pay for all the sins of all the world, once and for all time, but he is very clear that only those who accept the free gift of salvation are saved, and those who reject that gift our not.
Note that there is no condemnation to him that believes in Jesus, but those who do not are still under condemnation.
That is why Paul said in Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Because we are ALL under condemnation, we are ALL sinners, but those who have trusted Christ are not under condemnation anymore, because Christ paid for their sins. He did pay for all the sins of all the world, once and for all time, but he is very clear that only those who accept the free gift of salvation are saved, and those who reject that gift our not.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
This is why I could never be Christian , you do not see the truth in scripture for all, only for some, a limited Atonement mentality for sure. Your eye for scripture is trained to " exclude instead of include people", you do not search for the life of others, you search the scripture for death. In Romans 8:1 it does say for those who " Are in Christ", so who is in Christ? Of course Christians have been trained, like Mormons, to think that means themselves. John 17:2; " For thou has given him authority over ALL mankind, that to ALL thou has given him, he may GIVE eternal Life!" God gave Christ all people, thus all people are in Christ. This verse has so much Salvation in it, a limited atonement mindset is simply unable to see it. Another verse in Romans, 5:18;" Because of one mans sin, condemnation came to all men, conversely because of one mans act of Righteousness that same ALL men are now justified before God!" They are not condemned. Why would God condemn a whole world of unbelievers, just because Adam had a serious crush on Eve and was swayed? Its not fair that all men were Condemned because of Adam, and I know christians don't think its fair that because of Christ, all unbelievers are now Justified. But thats the way it is buddyrow.
Salvation is not based on wether men accept or reject it, its based on the Faithfulness of God to give it to them reguardless of what they believe, and Rom. 3:3 is clear on that.
Where Christians try to increase the penaltys of sin where it exist, Gods Grace abounds even more to cover them who ignorantly reject him.
Peace.
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Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Its meaning fits all humans. Rom. 3:9-12 explains that the whole world is quilty under God, all have sinned but 11:32 explains the most significant " Reason Why." It is our nature, and God created our nature, and it was he who shut up all into this nature, we didnot do it to ourselves. The reason God did this was to create a cause to send his Son to remedy it and give humanity the right to be released. Again in Gal. 3:22;" But the Scripture has shut up ALL men under sin." This is the root cause of our condition. God began this " Shutting up" in the garden of Eden when HE Planted, or established on earth, the Tree,or the root system, of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, both growing in the same tree, or both existing in our reality.
This is one reason why I believe in Universal Salvation, why would God expose humanity to sin, lock us up into its grip, give us a nature in submission to it, throw evil demons and their influence into the mix, then turn around and condemn us for falling under its overpowering pressure? No , sin is a vital part of the plan of salvation, it created the need for Christ to remove it from us, because we cannot free ourselves from it.
And we can do nothing about this, the human Consciousness cannot even simply believe in God, unless Heaven gives it to him. John 3:27;" A man can receive nothing unless Heaven gives it to him." See many believers in God think they believe of their own free will, as if THEY generated their belief, this is false self glory. No man can even simply come to Christ, unless the Father first draws him, John 6:44. But many think we can just " Come to Jesus, or to belief, on our own inititive", that is not scripture, thats free will religion. Jer. 31:3 shows that God will " Draw" people to him, in his own time. Religion believes that decision and responsibility is ours. Which makes human will out to be the key to Salvation, instead of God himself.
God is the Author and Finisher of human belief and repentance and understanding. He begins it in us, inititiates it, increases it, and finishes it, he is Alpha and Omega, the complette cycle of human life. And he can blind us from all of this if he so chooses.
Peace.
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Dunemeister
Well-Known Member
All this is well and good. I simply recommend that you read commentaries, particularly the new one by Wright, on Romans. You would benefit whether your opinion changes or not.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
I don't read the commentaries I have. But I am happy to assume that they benefit you.
Peace.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Mickiel....your last two posts seem to contradict each other.
First you dismiss the commentaries of other, and then you wish to discuss other popular beliefs, and how they affect this 'posturing' you keep talking about.
Which is it?
Do you want to talk about the commentaries of other writers...or not?
First you dismiss the commentaries of other, and then you wish to discuss other popular beliefs, and how they affect this 'posturing' you keep talking about.
Which is it?
Do you want to talk about the commentaries of other writers...or not?
mickiel
Well-Known Member
The posture of belief in God will be enhanced by personal study, that is for sure. The highest form of learning about God, is to be taught by God himself, then you no longer have a need to be taught by others. Jesus, in John 8:28 said he speaks things, ( or teachs things) as his Father taught him. Jesus had to learn, and we have to learn, this learning greatly shapes our posture of belief in God. To have God teach you would certainly be a rare priviledge, I certainly would like to be in that position. I am not there yet, but I jealously guard that " Space between me and God, and I am very supersticious about what rarely gets in there." I don't want anybody between me and God, as I prepare for the time in my life when I can be in contact with him. I don't just read anything and everything, I place absolutely zero trust in another humans teachings,I do not like even the idea of " Needing to learn from others." Years ago I asked God to remove any need I have in my Consciousness to learn from anyone other than him.
Now this is just the space I want to be in, perhaps this is just not for everyone. I have learned to trust the bible, my own Consciousness as affected by God , and the few times his Spirit comes and enlightens me, I need nothingelse. And I don't want this to ever change, this is a vital ingredient in my posture of belief. So if I am deceived by something, there is no one to blame but me. No book to blame, no commentaries, no teachers or preachers, no church , no doctrines of men, its just me and God. And I like this posture. Its for me. I walk alone in my posture of belief in God, and thats the way I want it.
But you must do what is best for you. Another may need to plant you, somethingelse may need to water you, just pray its God who increases you. But you need to develop a solid posture in your belief.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.
Now this is just the space I want to be in, perhaps this is just not for everyone. I have learned to trust the bible, my own Consciousness as affected by God , and the few times his Spirit comes and enlightens me, I need nothingelse. And I don't want this to ever change, this is a vital ingredient in my posture of belief. So if I am deceived by something, there is no one to blame but me. No book to blame, no commentaries, no teachers or preachers, no church , no doctrines of men, its just me and God. And I like this posture. Its for me. I walk alone in my posture of belief in God, and thats the way I want it.
But you must do what is best for you. Another may need to plant you, somethingelse may need to water you, just pray its God who increases you. But you need to develop a solid posture in your belief.
And I want to go into that.
Peace.