The price a Catholic pays for being in the public arena

[Estro Felino]

It's the Archdiocese which covers multiple Bay Area counties. She could probably still go to a parish in Washington when she's there, depending on who the priest is.

Exactly.

 

[pearl]

I did not get this. Could you elaborate, please?

In earlier years voting for any candidate who advocated the right to abortion was to collaborate with the sin of abortion. Then it distinguished between voting for a pro-abortion candidate because of the position on abortion, which sou and voting for a candidate 'in spite of' a position favoring abortion'. IOW, don't through out Catholic Social Justice in its entirety because of a 'single issue'.

 

[pearl]

I'm no Pelosi fan, but it seems this Archbishop is being ridiculous, possibly looking for a way to get into the limelight.

Much the same as any conservative bishop.

 

[Estro Felino]

In earlier years voting for any candidate who advocated the right to abortion was to collaborate with the sin of abortion. Then it distinguished between voting for a pro-abortion candidate because of the position on abortion, which sou and voting for a candidate 'in spite of' a position favoring abortion'. IOW, don't through out Catholic Social Justice in its entirety because of a 'single issue'.

Just a question: is there the total separation between church and state, in the United States ?

 

[pearl]

The bishop thinks taking a political stance helps against his congregation haemorrhaging members. It works with the Baptists but may backfire with Catholics. Despite many of them being very conservative he may underestimate how progressive the "silent majority" is.

We presently have a conservative bishop in our diocese. While more progressive Catholics certainly disagree, it is also believed that the Church and the hierarchy are not the same, the Church being the greater.

 

[stvdv]

You cannot have the cake and eat it. The separation of State and Church implies a choice.

Strange saying

If you eat the cake it will build your body, and that part will stay with you very long. So, you eat the cake and have it with you for a long time, safe and secure

I think it's good to make a choice and be firm

 

[pearl]

One group focused upon maintaining a correct view of scripture, and it was this group which divided almost every church and caused ten thousand church divisions.

For the most part Catholics leave to the Magisterium of the Church to interpret Scripture, we are more incline to divide over change in doctrine or liturgy.

Some churches didn't divide and some even maintained both fundamentalists and liberals. How did they do it? I don't know, but it might be a good idea to find out.

Fundamentalist for Catholic pertains more to tradition than Scripture as not until Vatican II were Catholics encouraged to read/study Scripture. I think what presents a more real threat may be a complete schism if the Church changed its position on the ordination of women.

 

[pearl]

Just a question: is there the total separation between church (churches) and state, in the United States ?

I think there is suppose to be, however, with the new Supreme Court it is now in questionable territory.

 

[pearl]

So, it's just in that particular diocese?

Yes, each bishop speaks for/heads his own diocese, as the Pope speaks for and heads the diocese of Rome in such matters.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes, each bishop speaks for/heads his own diocese, as the Pope speaks for and heads the diocese of Rome in such matters.

Indeed, if she goes to the Vatican, the Pope will never deny her the Communion. So...

 

[Estro Felino]

I think there is suppose to be, however, with the new Supreme Court it is now in questionable territory.

In Italy there is. Church and State are separated. So if the Pope wishes to excommunicate Italian Nationalists, he can do it. This will have zero political effects within the secular Republic of Italy.

 

[metis]

I remember when the same action was taken against John Kerry, denying of the Eucharist. What the bishop in this case is advocating is single issue voting.

From the article;
Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco is barring Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi from receiving Communion in his archdiocese. Ms. Pelosi, a life-long Catholic, has recently vowed to codify Roe v. Wade, in order to preserve a legal right to abortion in case the Supreme Court overturns the decision that legalized abortion in the United States.

“Unfortunately, Speaker Pelosi’s position on abortion has become only more extreme over the years, especially in the last few months,” Archbishop Cordileone said in a statement May 20. “Just earlier this month she once again, as she has many times before, explicity raised her Catholic faith while justifying abortion as a ‘choice,’ this time explicitly setting herself in opposition to Pope Francis.”

Last fall, Archbishop Cordileone organized a prayer and fasting campaign for Ms. Pelosi. “A conversion of heart of the majority of our congressional representatives is needed on this issue, beginning with the leader of the House,” he said in a statement Sept. 29. “I am therefore inviting all Catholics to join in a massive and visible campaign of prayer and fasting for Speaker Pelosi: Commit to praying one rosary a week and fasting on Fridays for her conversion of heart.”

Pope Francis has said that he has never denied Communion to anyone. “When the church, in order to defend a principle, acts in a non-pastoral way, it takes sides on the political plane. It has always been so,” Francis said last September on the flight back to Rome from Bratislava. “Be a pastor. Don’t go condemning.”

Archbishop bars Nancy Pelosi from Communion in her home diocese, citing ‘aggressive’ defense of abortion rights | America Magazine

Is this archbishop also going to excommunicate those who support capital punishment? oppose fighting climate change? etc?

I have a very serious problem with the hypocrisy of some within the hierarchy of the Church who only get bent out of shape if the issue is abortion while ignoring other pro-life issues. If our archbishop tried this here, my wife, a life-long Catholic, and I will leave the Church, especially in light of the "pedophile priest" scandal that so many bishops mishandled.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Just a question: is there the total separation between church and state, in the United States ?

Yes, each bishop speaks for/heads his own diocese, as the Pope speaks for and heads the diocese of Rome in such matters.

…and as such, the bishop should do as the pope says. And he made it clear that abortion is NOT to be punished by the church.

This is all about a confused and extremist priest stepping into politics.
Exactly how many of his diocese members has he barred from communion for being pro-death penalty? For not supporting getting more infant formula to poor families with hungry infants? For those who promoted recent wars? Etc….etc….?

 

[pearl]

Is this archbishop also going to excommunicate those who support capital punishment? oppose fighting climate change? etc?

First of all there was no excommunication, but the denial of the Eucharistic sacrament. Being a conservative bishop he more than likely supports the death penalty and probably thinks the climate is none of churches concern.

I have a very serious problem with the hypocrisy of some within the hierarchy

As do I, however I believe the 'Church' to be greater than the hierarchy. It was John Paul II who pushed the teaching that without protecting the life of the unborn other life issues are meaningless. The right to life was first and foremost, that was to be the single issue. Francis, although anti-abortion as he must, he nonetheless recognizes the 'seamless garment' of life issues, that we are not single issues voters.

especially in light of the "pedophile priest" scandal that so many bishops mishandled.

I remain convinced the bishops followed the practice of the time from the top down. On the parish level we refused to give financial support and instead gave to Catholic Charities. I remember your statements 'don't throw the baby out with the bathwater'. Seems to apply here?

 

[pearl]

…and as such, the bishop should do as the pope says. And he made it clear that abortion is NOT to be punished by the church.

I do not think this is at all true. In fact Francis gave permission for the parish priest to forgive the sin of abortion, instead of the prior law that required forgiveness from only the bishop.

This is all about a confused and extremist priest stepping into politics.

Extremist yes, confused, I don't think so.

Exactly how many of his diocese members has he barred from communion

The thing is, he can only bar those whom he knows of through their position stated publicly. Before John Paul II clergy were allowed to serve in the American Congress.

 

[metis]

First of all there was no excommunication, but the denial of the Eucharistic sacrament. Being a conservative bishop he more than likely supports the death penalty and probably thinks the climate is none of churches concern.

Yep, I used the wrong word, so thanks for the correction.

As for the 2nd part, if the bishop takes that position then he is being hypocritical through "picking & choosing".

As do I, however I believe the 'Church' to be greater than the hierarchy.

Agreed.

Francis, although anti-abortion as he must, he nonetheless recognizes the 'seamless garment' of life issues, that we are not single issues voters.

Again agreed.

I remain convinced the bishops followed the practice of the time from the top down.

I'm not, especially since we had two incidents here in our parish whereas all they did was to move a choir director who abused some young girls to another parish and where a priest of ours was defrocked and sentenced but only after the scandals broke nationally.

I remember your statements 'don't throw the baby out with the bathwater'. Seems to apply here?

Yep, and hopefully that's good advice I can live with.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Indeed, if she goes to the Vatican, the Pope will never deny her the Communion. So...

That would be a turn up for the books, as we say in England; her receiving communion from the holy father, after being refused it by this bishop.

Hopefully she’ll be able to find a local priest willing to offer her the sacrament in private, if she wants that. Meanwhile, someone might remind this bishop that Jesus didn’t turn people away - he even broke bread with Judas Escariot.

 

[Estro Felino]

That would be a turn up for the books, as we say in England; her receiving communion from the holy father, after being refused it by this bishop.

Hopefully she’ll be able to find a local priest willing to offer her the sacrament in private, if she wants that. Meanwhile, someone might remind this bishop that Jesus didn’t turn people away - he even broke bread with Judas Escariot.

It depends. There is a limit to everything.
A Bishop in Sicily has forbidden priests from giving the Eucharist to mobsters.
And one of the worst, who died in jail of old age, was denied the Funeral Holy Mass.

Is this Bishop at fault? I don't think so.

 

[metis]

That would be a turn up for the books, as we say in England; her receiving communion from the holy father, after being refused it by this bishop.

Good point, imo, so what I do believe we're seeing are some clergy and lay taking positions pushed by secular politics. We also know that some bishops are not happy with PF, which is their right of course. I have seen this happening in our parish as both our priest and the head of the RCIA are very political and have supported Trump. I personally called the priest out on it in a private, but friendly, conversation. He denied taking a partisan position during mass but the reality is that he did but not in an overt manner.

I've been involved with the RCIA for 15 years, co-running it with our nuns for 14 of them, but the new man in charge is highly political, thus I don't know if I want to get involved this upcoming session. However, I may just to try and temper his partisanship.

 

[metis]

It depends. There is a limit to everything.
A Bishop in Sicily has forbidden priests from giving the Eucharist to mobsters.
And one of the worst, who died in jail of old age, was denied the Funeral Holy Mass.

Is this Bishop at fault? I don't think so.

But the difference is that the Mob violates the civil law whereas Pelosi hasn't, plus she is obligated to represent her constituency as a representative.

BTW, how's the weather over there in Sicilia? We've been in contact with some of my wife's relatives there but on other matters.