The price a Catholic pays for being in the public arena

[mikkel_the_dane]

Funding any church with taxpayer funds is a line that no politician should cross.

That being said, IMO, any attempt by the Catholic Church to use threats of spiritual punishment against legislators in order to change law or policy is an abuse of their undue influence.

I am of another opinion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Just a question: is there the total separation between church and state, in the United States ?

Constitutionally? Yes.

Practically? No.

 

[Estro Felino]

Funding any church with taxpayer funds is a line that no politician should cross.

That being said, IMO, any attempt by the Catholic Church to use threats of spiritual punishment against legislators in order to change law or policy is an abuse of their undue influence.

No, I mean with personal money.

 

[Estro Felino]

That being said, IMO, any attempt by the Catholic Church to use threats of spiritual punishment against legislators in order to change law or policy is an abuse of their undue influence.

Pretty all Christian Churches are entitled to excommunicate the members whose stance is not in line with their teachings. I mean...the Pope is entitled to excommunicate Italian Nationalists.
He refused to meet the European Trump...because of his alleged racist policies.
Yes, the Pope can do it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, I mean with personal money.

Oh - okay. I misunderstood what you meant.

If we're talking about a personal donation with the member's own funds, that sounds like an internal matter between the church and the member.

 

[Estro Felino]

Oh - okay. I misunderstood what you meant.

If we're talking about a personal donation with the member's own funds, that sounds like an internal matter between the church and the member.

Yes...but my question still stands.
Can a Catholic politician do that and still be admitted to the Communion?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Pretty all Christian Churches are entitled to excommunicate the members whose stance is not in line with their teachings. I mean...the Pope is entitled to excommunicate Italian Nationalists.
He refused to meet the European Trump...because of his alleged racist policies.
Yes, the Pope can do it.

I was talking about ethics, not legal limits.

IMO, it's unethical for a church to try to influence secular law, even if it's through internal discipline against members who happen to be lawmakers.

There's no legal punishment for churches who behave unethically, but this issue is one that - for me as a secularist - helps to categorize churches.

If a church actively tries to undermine secular government by trying to impose their religious ideology through secular law, I would say that the church not only invites outside interference, but anyone who cares about liberty and democracy ought to step in urgently and interfere with that church until they're no longer a threat to our basic institutions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes...but my question still stands.
Can a Catholic politician do that and still be admitted to the Communion?

That's up to the church. It would (mostly) be no skin off my nose either way.

 

[Estro Felino]

I was talking about ethics, not legal limits.

IMO, it's unethical for a church to try to influence secular law, even if it's through internal discipline against members who happen to be lawmakers.

There's no legal punishment for churches who behave unethically, but this issue is one that - for me as a secularist - helps to categorize churches.

If a church actively tries to undermine secular government by trying to impose their religious ideology through secular law, I would say that the church not only invites outside interference, but anyone who cares about liberty and democracy ought to step in urgently and interfere with that church until they're no longer a threat to our basic institutions.

Article 7 of our Constitution says there is the separation between Church and the secular Republic. And that both are sovereign and independent from one another.
This entails what the Church does is ineffective within the Republic borders and vice versa.

The Pope is entitled to his opinions, ergo he can excommunicate politicians.
Politicians should not care about what the Pope says or does, because if they do, they break the article 7 of the Constitution.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Article 7 of our Constitution says there is the separation between Church and the secular Republic. And that both are sovereign and independent from one another.
This entails what the Church does is ineffective within the Republic borders and vice versa.

The Pope is entitled to his opinions, ergo he can excommunicate politicians.
Politicians should not care about what the Pope says or does, because if they do, they break the article 7 of the Constitution.

Without knowing that much about the Italian constitution, I would say that as a general principle, if a church violates church-state separation by trying to influence secular legislation by threatening a politician - including threats of Hell or denying sacraments - then that church is no longer entitled to the protections of church-state separation.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Estro Felino]

Without knowing that much about the Italian constitution, I would say that as a general principle, if a church violates church-state separation by trying to influence secular legislation by threatening a politician - including threats of Hell or denying sacraments - then that church is no longer entitled to the protections of church-state separation.

You can't have it both ways.

Do you mind me asking you this question?
Is this Pope entitled to excommunicate an Italian Prime Minister (Nationalist Party), whose says racist things 24/7?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Without knowing that much about the Italian constitution, I would say that as a general principle, if a church violates church-state separation by trying to influence secular legislation by threatening a politician - including threats of Hell or denying sacraments - then that church is no longer entitled to the protections of church-state separation.

You can't have it both ways.

Well, the one is religion, the other politics. So the separation of religion and state works both ways if you believe in that.

 

[Estro Felino]

Well, the one is religion, the other politics. So the separation of religion and state works both ways if you believe in that.

Exactly.
So...if I am a Prime Minister of a secular republic, honestly I wouldn't care less about a funny gentleman dressed in white.
And I wouldn't care less about his excommunications.

I would exclusively focus on my political, secular ideals.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do you mind me asking you this question?
Is this Pope entitled to excommunicate an Italian Prime Minister (Nationalist Party), whose says racist things 24/7?

Would the Pope be entitled to hold a gun to the Prime Minister's head and threaten to shoot him if he doesn't stop saying racist things?

To a devout Catholic, excommunication would be a greater threat. No, I don't think the Pope should be entitled to excommunicate him.

Not only that, since the Pope and the Italian government are both playing along with the ridiculous idea that the Holy See is a sovereign state, the Italian Prime Minister *is* entitled to declare the Pope persona non grata in Italy and refuse to admit him... or any other "diplomat" representing the Pope (i.e. any Catholic priest, monk or nun).

I think the Pope is entitled to criticize the PM, but not to effect political change through threats.

 

[Estro Felino]

Would the Pope be entitled to hold a gun to the Prime Minister's head and threaten to shoot him if he doesn't stop saying racist things?

To a devout Catholic, excommunication would be a greater threat. No, I don't think the Pope should be entitled to excommunicate him.

Not only that, since the Pope and the Italian government are both playing along with the ridiculous idea that the Holy See is a sovereign state, the Italian Prime Minister *is* entitled to declare the Pope persona non grata in Italy and refuse to admit him... or any other "diplomat" representing the Pope (i.e. any Catholic priest, monk or nun).

I think the Pope is entitled to criticize the PM, but not to effect political change through threats.

With all due respect...really
But it seems to me you haven't understood the notion of "separation of Church and State" we have in Italy.

It deals with two separate entities. Two separate states. Like United Kingdom and France.
So, yes ...a Pope can excommunicate any politician .

I understand Canada has a head of state who is also a head of the Church...so in that case, I guess there is not that separation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Exactly.
So...if I am a Prime Minister of a secular republic, honestly I wouldn't care less about a funny gentleman dressed in white.
And I wouldn't care less about his excommunications.

I would exclusively focus on my political, secular ideals.

The big problem happens when that politician has been conditioned from birth to believe that being denied the sacraments is a fate worth than death and this belief persists into adulthood... as it does for many people.

Demanding that our politicians not hold beliefs that make them susceptible to intimidation and undue influence wouldn't be acceptable in a secular state.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

With all due respect...really
But it seems to me you haven't understood the notion of "separation of Church and State" we have in Italy.

It deals with two separate entities. Two separate states. Like United Kingdom and France.

No, that's not a good analogy.

Representatives of the UK have no right to be in France. They are only in France with the permission of the French government. If France decides that some British diplomat needs to leave, they're kicked out and UK just has to live with it.

I understand Canada has a head of state who is also a head of the Church...so in that case, I guess there is not that separation.

That's right. We have equality of religion and freedom of religion (except for specific exemptions carved out in the constitution), but not separation of church and state.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, that's not a good analogy.

Representatives of the UK have no right to be in France. They are only in France with the permission of the French government. If France decides that some British diplomat needs to leave, they're kicked out and UK just has to live with it..

The Vatican is a foreign State to us. A foreign country.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Vatican is a foreign State to us. A foreign country.

That's what I was getting at. Italy doesn't treat the Vatican like a foreign country.

For instance, when was the last time Italy expelled a criminal priest to Vatican City the way it would expel a diplomat who had committed crimes back to their home country?

 

[Estro Felino]

That's what I was getting at. Italy doesn't treat the Vatican like a foreign country.

For instance, when was the last time Italy expelled a criminal priest to Vatican City the way it would expel a diplomat who had committed crimes back to their home country?

Thank you for bringing up this harsh issue. If we think of paedophile priests, we have had cases where the Church did anything to cover all up. Whereas the Italian State was investigating, because the fact happened within its own territory.
But, this is just the evidence that Church and State rarely cooperate and they are antagonists.