The Pro-Life Conspiracy

[Sunstone]

"I am not a conspiracy nut. But in this case no other word than conspiracy will do. We did what we did covertly, telling supporters one thing, and telling leaders on the inside of the political establishment another thing.

"There was one agenda in public, another one behind closed doors. And we changed America for the worse." -- Frank Schaeffer​

Most of us today no longer remember back when abortion was opposed, mostly, only by Catholics. Indeed, there was a time when it was condoned even by some of the most religiously conservative denominations in America. For instance:

In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: ‘If a man kills any human life he will be put to death’ (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.” [Source]​

Southern Baptists were on record supporting abortion rights as late as 1976, and they did not officially reverse themselves until the 1980s. [Source]

So what caused the reversal? Why did abortion become the huge issue it is today for so many religious folks?

By most accounts, the one person who had the most to do with the reversal was Francis Schaeffer. He was Frank Schaeffer's father. Francis was also the Protestant theologian most responsible -- not only for creating the notion that abortion violated biblical teachings -- but for propagating it. He, along with other people, did everything they could to make sure it became a popular issue.

Francis' son, Frank, was heavily and intimately involved in his father's efforts. And, according to Frank, those efforts crucially involved conspiring with Republican leaders to turn abortion into a means of creating a reliable, Republican-voting block out of America's Evangelicals and other fundamentalists.

The deal was this: The Republicans would get the Evangelicals, etc delivered to them by the religious leaders in exchange for the religious leaders getting power and wealth.

So, in a vital way, the abortion issue boils down to the ancient story of political elites and religious elites finding reasons to be in cahoots with each other. That story has been a constantly recurring theme in human history since the first civilizations were founded 5,500 years ago.

Beyond that, I wonder how many of us are genuinely surprised by this? I know some of us will dismiss it and the evidence for it, but that's only human nature. I'm not all that interested in them. But I am interested in knowing if anyone has been genuinely surprised to hear that the anti-abortion movement had its origins more in politics, than in unquestioned biblical principles?


_______________________________
A Little Further Reading:

The Actual "Pro-Life" Conspiracy That Handed America to the Tea Party & Far Religious Right (An Insider's Perspective)

The Not so Lofty Origins of the Evangelical Pro-Life Movement

Also see posts #27 and #28 in this thread for the Catholic take on abortion.

 

[David1967]

Interesting SS. You did your homework and have an informed opinion. That being said, I would like to see contraception to the point abortion becomes a thing of the past.
Respectfully of course.

 

[Spiderman]

I went to through a pro-life phase where I thought the millions and millions of babies slain legally by abortion was the greatest abomination against God...then I saw repeated examples of lives that are chronic agony, and people who are a thorn in everyone's side, and realized abortion is the best thing for countless people... seriously, there are so many countless millions of miserable, tortured souls, or sick people who harm others, it is obvious that their mother would have done a great deed to have them put out of their misery in the womb... I feel like a bad Catholic for saying that, but it just seems to be common sense at work.

 

[Cacotopia]

Interesting SS. You did your homework and have an informed opinion. That being said, I would like to see contraception to the point abortion becomes a thing of the past.
Respectfully of course.

What does that mean exactly, it's no longer a talking point and people just respect other people's personal decisions? Or people are forced to carry to term? Not everyone is responsible, maybe they had all the kids they wanted to have but couldn't afford to sterilize themselves, perhaps they never wanted kids, but wanted the option still on the table if they had a change of heart. Mistakes do happen. An affordable option should be available to everyone. If you are pro life have kids have as many as you want, but don't force people to live by your own ideals and not entertain others. Especially in a "free" society. When you make certain actions compulsory, well it's not exactly free anymore is it?

 

[David1967]

I went to through a pro-life phase where I thought the millions and millions of babies slain legally by abortion was the greatest abomination against God...then I saw repeated examples of lives that are chronic agony, and people who are a thorn in everyone's side, and realized abortion is the best thing for countless people... seriously, there are so many countless millions of miserable, tortured souls, or sick people who harm others, it is obvious that their mother would have done a great deed to have them put out of their misery in the womb... I feel like a bad Catholic for saying that, but it just seems to be common sense at work.

It's a touchy subject with no easy answer. And one I don't see resolved anytime soon. There is a need for compassionate dialogue concerning this, which unfortunately is often lacking.

 

[Sunstone]

Interesting SS. You did your homework and have an informed opinion. That being said, I would like to see contraception to the point abortion becomes a thing of the past.
Respectfully of course.

Ideally, that would be best, I think. Contraception is in my book the single best solution to the abortion problem if and when it's combined with easy availability and universal education.

Oddly enough, some folks are opposed to contraception itself. I mean, some Protestants. There are a few groups who have declared that they intend to have all contraceptives outlawed. As you might expect, those folks belong to the same kind of religion you yourself rejected years ago.

 

[Cacotopia]

I went to through a pro-life phase where I thought the millions and millions of babies slain legally by abortion was the greatest abomination against God...then I saw repeated examples of lives that are chronic agony, and people who are a thorn in everyone's side, and realized abortion is the best thing for countless people... seriously, there are so many countless millions of miserable, tortured souls, or sick people who harm others, it is obvious that their mother would have done a great deed to have them put out of their misery in the womb... I feel like a bad Catholic for saying that, but it just seems to be common sense at work.

You cannot predict a future murderer or psychopath, at least maybe not yet, would that be an issue with the public if you could find disorders like say down syndrome, except in this case you could predict if the child was to be a sociopath, or mentally disturbed, that abortion would be the best option for society and not for the child, perhaps in the future with CRIPSR they could alter genes prenatally to "fix" people of those conditions, it's a slippery slope indeed when you start to be able to engineer humans. What other aspects could you engineer? Obedience?

now that is starting to sound like a conspiracy.

 

[David1967]

What does that mean exactly, it's no longer a talking point and people just respect other people's personal decisions? Or people are forced to carry to term? Not everyone is responsible, maybe they had all the kids they wanted to have but couldn't afford to sterilize themselves, perhaps they never wanted kids, but wanted the option still on the table if they had a change of heart. Mistakes do happen. An affordable option should be available to everyone. If you are pro life have kids have as many as you want, but don't force people to live by your own ideals and not entertain others. Especially in a "free" society. When you make certain actions compulsory, well it's not exactly free anymore is it?

Where in my post did I say anything about forcing anyone to do anything? You'd have to do some seriously creative reading between the lines to come up with that. It was an "in a perfect world" kind of statement, not a challenge.

 

[David1967]

Ideally, that would be best, I think. Contraception is in my book the signal best solution to the abortion problem if and when it's combined with easy availability and universal education.

Oddly enough, some folks are opposed to contraception itself. I mean, some Protestants. There are a few groups who have declared that they intend to have all contraceptives outlawed. As you might expect, those folks belong to the same kind of religion you yourself rejected years ago.

We are in agreement here. Totally.

 

[Cacotopia]

I understand why contraceptives before were frowned upon, historically children died often, you had a LOT of kids to counter the high mortality rates, the average medical profile of the world has risen substantially, and as a byproduct, so has our population. It is only rational to include contraceptives in order to counter balance our birthrates. Natural diseases before was that balance. Now I would say we have roughly eliminated nature's balance on our species. I think abortion and contraceptives are necessary to the specie's survival.


You ever play that flash game Fishy? back in the 90's you were a tiny fish, you ate smaller fish and grew bigger if you managed to reach the end of the game, the size of your fish was nearly the size of the game screen, and you died, because you ate everything till there was nothing left. I kinda see us going in that direction, we need to check ourselves.

Fishy

 

[Cacotopia]

Where in my post did I say anything about forcing anyone to do anything? You'd have to do some seriously creative reading between the lines to come up with that. It was an "in a perfect world" kind of statement, not a challenge.

Hence the question in the beginning of the statement. To which you still have not addressed it.

You said no longer an issue, in your terms where is it resolved. it can only be either an option to consider without societal backlash, or forced to carry to term, which side of the fence would it be concluded on?

 

[David1967]

Hence the question in the beginning of the statement. To which you still have not addressed it.

You said no longer an issue, in your terms where is it resolved. it can only be either an option to consider without societal backlash, or forced to carry to term, which side of the fence would it be concluded on?

I'm not going to beat the proverbial dead horse on this issue. I think my thoughts on this are clearly stated in my responses to Sunstone and Pope.

 

[Cacotopia]

Or sitting too high on his lofty horse to deign to answer to someone else?

 

[David1967]

Or sitting too high on his lofty horse to deign to answer to someone else?

Nah. I'm scared of horses. Unpredictable beasts.

 

[Sunstone]

Hence the question in the beginning of the statement. To which you still have not addressed it.

You said no longer an issue, in your terms where is it resolved. it can only be either an option to consider without societal backlash, or forced to carry to term, which side of the fence would it be concluded on?

Why don't you just drop trying to bait David into arguing with you?

 

[Sunstone]

Or sitting too high on his lofty horse to deign to answer to someone else?

You seem to have a deeply rooted belief you're in a position to dictate that people debate you. Interesting. Speaks volumes.

 

[Robert Vincelette]

"I am not a conspiracy nut. But in this case no other word than conspiracy will do. We did what we did covertly, telling supporters one thing, and telling leaders on the inside of the political establishment another thing.

"There was one agenda in public, another one behind closed doors. And we changed America for the worse." -- Frank Schaeffer​

Most of us today no longer remember back when abortion was opposed, mostly, only by Catholics. Indeed, there was a time when it was condoned even by some of the most religiously conservative denominations in America. For instance:

In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: ‘If a man kills any human life he will be put to death’ (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.” [Source]​

Southern Baptists were on record supporting abortion rights as late as 1976, and they did not officially reverse themselves until the 1980s. [Source]

So what caused the reversal? Why did abortion become the huge issue it is today for so many religious folks?

By most accounts, the one person who had the most to do with the reversal was Francis Schaeffer. He was Frank Schaeffer's father. Francis was also the Protestant theologian most responsible -- not only for creating the notion that abortion violated biblical teachings -- but for propagating it. He, along with other people, did everything they could to make sure it became a popular issue.

Francis' son, Frank, was heavily and intimately involved in his father's efforts. And, according to Frank, those efforts crucially involved conspiring with Republican leaders to turn abortion into a means of creating a reliable, Republican-voting block out of America's Evangelicals and other fundamentalists.

The deal was this: The Republicans would get the Evangelicals, etc delivered to them by the religious leaders in exchange for the religious leaders getting power and wealth.

So, in a vital way, the abortion issue boils down to the ancient story of political elites and religious elites finding reasons to be in cahoots with each other. That story has been a constantly recurring theme in human history since the first civilizations were founded 5,500 years ago.

Beyond that, I wonder how many of us are genuinely surprised by this? I know some of us will dismiss it and the evidence for it, but that's only human nature. I'm not all that interested in them. But I am interested in knowing if anyone has been genuinely surprised to hear that the anti-abortion movement had its origins more in politics, than in unquestioned biblical principles?


_______________________________
A Little Further Reading:

The Actual "Pro-Life" Conspiracy That Handed America to the Tea Party & Far Religious Right (An Insider's Perspective)

The Not so Lofty Origins of the Evangelical Pro-Life Movement

 

[Robert Vincelette]

The Vatican proscribed abortion much earlier, however the use of the Bible to attempt to prove an ethical solution to a problem is far inferior to more advanced ethics such as Kant's categorical imperative which was advanced from a priori to practical knowledge by what can be implied from what Heisenberg indeterminacy does to free will of consciousness in electro-chemical actions in the brains of all sentient creatures and matters of neuro-science that are better equipped to guide us in matters of right and wrong. These considerations apply such questions as whether a fetus has consciousness and the will to live that goes with it and when does it have the beginnings of this consciousness.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Assuming what you say is true (source?), that only speaks to the motives of the leadership of that movement. But the vast majority of "the regular folk" who supported the cause -- no duplicity there.

By the way, one does not have to be a conservative, evangelical Christian to oppose anortion.

"I am not a conspiracy nut. But in this case no other word than conspiracy will do. We did what we did covertly, telling supporters one thing, and telling leaders on the inside of the political establishment another thing.

"There was one agenda in public, another one behind closed doors. And we changed America for the worse." -- Frank Schaeffer​

Most of us today no longer remember back when abortion was opposed, mostly, only by Catholics. Indeed, there was a time when it was condoned even by some of the most religiously conservative denominations in America. For instance:

In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: ‘If a man kills any human life he will be put to death’ (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.” [Source]​

Southern Baptists were on record supporting abortion rights as late as 1976, and they did not officially reverse themselves until the 1980s. [Source]

So what caused the reversal? Why did abortion become the huge issue it is today for so many religious folks?

By most accounts, the one person who had the most to do with the reversal was Francis Schaeffer. He was Frank Schaeffer's father. Francis was also the Protestant theologian most responsible -- not only for creating the notion that abortion violated biblical teachings -- but for propagating it. He, along with other people, did everything they could to make sure it became a popular issue.

Francis' son, Frank, was heavily and intimately involved in his father's efforts. And, according to Frank, those efforts crucially involved conspiring with Republican leaders to turn abortion into a means of creating a reliable, Republican-voting block out of America's Evangelicals and other fundamentalists.

The deal was this: The Republicans would get the Evangelicals, etc delivered to them by the religious leaders in exchange for the religious leaders getting power and wealth.

So, in a vital way, the abortion issue boils down to the ancient story of political elites and religious elites finding reasons to be in cahoots with each other. That story has been a constantly recurring theme in human history since the first civilizations were founded 5,500 years ago.

Beyond that, I wonder how many of us are genuinely surprised by this? I know some of us will dismiss it and the evidence for it, but that's only human nature. I'm not all that interested in them. But I am interested in knowing if anyone has been genuinely surprised to hear that the anti-abortion movement had its origins more in politics, than in unquestioned biblical principles?


_______________________________
A Little Further Reading:

The Actual "Pro-Life" Conspiracy That Handed America to the Tea Party & Far Religious Right (An Insider's Perspective)

The Not so Lofty Origins of the Evangelical Pro-Life Movement

 

[Robert Landbeck]

"I am not a conspiracy nut. But in this case no other word than conspiracy will do. We did what we did covertly, telling supporters one thing, and telling leaders on the inside of the political establishment another thing.

"There was one agenda in public, another one behind closed doors. And we changed America for the worse." -- Frank Schaeffer​

Most of us today no longer remember back when abortion was opposed, mostly, only by Catholics. Indeed, there was a time when it was condoned even by some of the most religiously conservative denominations in America. For instance:

In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: ‘If a man kills any human life he will be put to death’ (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.” [Source]​

Southern Baptists were on record supporting abortion rights as late as 1976, and they did not officially reverse themselves until the 1980s. [Source]

So what caused the reversal? Why did abortion become the huge issue it is today for so many religious folks?

By most accounts, the one person who had the most to do with the reversal was Francis Schaeffer. He was Frank Schaeffer's father. Francis was also the Protestant theologian most responsible -- not only for creating the notion that abortion violated biblical teachings -- but for propagating it. He, along with other people, did everything they could to make sure it became a popular issue.

Francis' son, Frank, was heavily and intimately involved in his father's efforts. And, according to Frank, those efforts crucially involved conspiring with Republican leaders to turn abortion into a means of creating a reliable, Republican-voting block out of America's Evangelicals and other fundamentalists.

The deal was this: The Republicans would get the Evangelicals, etc delivered to them by the religious leaders in exchange for the religious leaders getting power and wealth.

So, in a vital way, the abortion issue boils down to the ancient story of political elites and religious elites finding reasons to be in cahoots with each other. That story has been a constantly recurring theme in human history since the first civilizations were founded 5,500 years ago.

Beyond that, I wonder how many of us are genuinely surprised by this? I know some of us will dismiss it and the evidence for it, but that's only human nature. I'm not all that interested in them. But I am interested in knowing if anyone has been genuinely surprised to hear that the anti-abortion movement had its origins more in politics, than in unquestioned biblical principles?


_______________________________
A Little Further Reading:

The Actual "Pro-Life" Conspiracy That Handed America to the Tea Party & Far Religious Right (An Insider's Perspective)

The Not so Lofty Origins of the Evangelical Pro-Life Movement

"I am not a conspiracy nut. But in this case no other word than conspiracy will do. We did what we did covertly, telling supporters one thing, and telling leaders on the inside of the political establishment another thing.

"There was one agenda in public, another one behind closed doors. And we changed America for the worse." -- Frank Schaeffer​

Most of us today no longer remember back when abortion was opposed, mostly, only by Catholics. Indeed, there was a time when it was condoned even by some of the most religiously conservative denominations in America. For instance:

In 1968, Christianity Today published a special issue on contraception and abortion, encapsulating the consensus among evangelical thinkers at the time. In the leading article, professor Bruce Waltke, of the famously conservative Dallas Theological Seminary, explained the Bible plainly teaches that life begins at birth:

“God does not regard the fetus as a soul, no matter how far gestation has progressed. The Law plainly exacts: ‘If a man kills any human life he will be put to death’ (Lev. 24:17). But according to Exodus 21:22–24, the destruction of the fetus is not a capital offense… Clearly, then, in contrast to the mother, the fetus is not reckoned as a soul.” [Source]​

Southern Baptists were on record supporting abortion rights as late as 1976, and they did not officially reverse themselves until the 1980s. [Source]

So what caused the reversal? Why did abortion become the huge issue it is today for so many religious folks?

By most accounts, the one person who had the most to do with the reversal was Francis Schaeffer. He was Frank Schaeffer's father. Francis was also the Protestant theologian most responsible -- not only for creating the notion that abortion violated biblical teachings -- but for propagating it. He, along with other people, did everything they could to make sure it became a popular issue.

Francis' son, Frank, was heavily and intimately involved in his father's efforts. And, according to Frank, those efforts crucially involved conspiring with Republican leaders to turn abortion into a means of creating a reliable, Republican-voting block out of America's Evangelicals and other fundamentalists.

The deal was this: The Republicans would get the Evangelicals, etc delivered to them by the religious leaders in exchange for the religious leaders getting power and wealth.

So, in a vital way, the abortion issue boils down to the ancient story of political elites and religious elites finding reasons to be in cahoots with each other. That story has been a constantly recurring theme in human history since the first civilizations were founded 5,500 years ago.

Beyond that, I wonder how many of us are genuinely surprised by this? I know some of us will dismiss it and the evidence for it, but that's only human nature. I'm not all that interested in them. But I am interested in knowing if anyone has been genuinely surprised to hear that the anti-abortion movement had its origins more in politics, than in unquestioned biblical principles?

It is obvious that religious institution has sought common cause and support with what ever political construct exists, anywhere. One might see this more clearly in the example of European monarchy, where a symbiotic relationship of supporting each others credibility and claims has always existed. There could never have been any divine right of kings without the 'church' standing like a crux, in support. The point is this: How can any 'religious' moral teaching, having no intrinsic moral authority of its own and depending upon a conspiracy of enforcement with political establishment, have anything to do with God?

_______________________________
A Little Further Reading:

The Actual "Pro-Life" Conspiracy That Handed America to the Tea Party & Far Religious Right (An Insider's Perspective)

The Not so Lofty Origins of the Evangelical Pro-Life Movement