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The problem of Creationism in Islam rejecting the science of evolution.

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I recommend you to read the Bible again. Rain was only a part of it. Large part of the water came form the "fountains of the great deep". The great deep is the water that was below the original continent. And fountains of great deep are like geysers. My guess is that meteor hit the original continent, probably on Yucatán peninsula, which then caused the original continent to brake up into modern continents. It caused the cracks to the original continent, probably lot of those int eh area of Mid-Atlantic ridge. And there the water and water vapor came first from small cracks, like in geysers, causing the heavy rain and flooding.

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep were burst open, and the sky's win-dows were opened. The rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
Gen. 7:11-12
And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and covered are all the high mountains which are under the whole heavens; fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered;
Gen. 7:19-20
all in whose nostrils is breath of a living spirit--of all that is in the dry land--have died. And wiped away is all the substance that is on the face of the ground, from man unto beast, unto creeping thing, and unto fowl of the heavens; yea, they are wiped away from the earth, and only Noah is left, and those who are with him in the ark;
Gen. 7:22-23

So, in Biblical point of view earth (=dry land) was formed like this:

View attachment 85915
Unbelievable pseudoscience dishonest mythology with absolutely no evidence that any of the above actually took place.

There is no such thing nor evidence of fountains of the deep. It is documented that any water in the interior is tied up chemically in the rock.

Simple Physics. The amount of energy generated in the short period of time would roast the earth as a lifeless cinder
 
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justaguy313

Active Member
A 1928 book!?!?! How archiac! The problem with this is modern science and Chaos Theory math has demonstrated that all the cause and effect outcomes in Nature are not random, and probability estimates are meaningless efforts to demonstrate that evolution is false by Creationists with a pseudoscience agenda. The following thread documents the problem of Randomness in nature.


There is good reason scientists have ignored these useless ancient arguments. Increasing entropy and Second Law of Thermodynamics is meaningless in this case, because the source of energy for evolution is the internal heat of the earth and the sun, which provides far more than enough energy for the evolution of life.

Metaphysical speculation is the realm of Creationist pseudoscience, and not legitimate science. Again the Creationist arguments for irreducible Complexity has been demonstrated without basis i real science. There have been a number of threads on this cite that have demonstrate that the use of probability in this case and the phony argument for irreducible complexity is false and pseudoscience based on a Creationist agenda not legitimate science.

No as described above. Biblical citations do not contribute to a scientific argument.

Chaos theory? You must be joking, what are you an agent of Illuminati?

a) Matter-scientific definition

Matter is the substance from which a physical object is composed
The material substance that occupies space has mass and is composed mainly of atoms, which are composed of protons, electrons and neutrons, which form the observable Universe, which is exchangeable with energy.
Matter is an indeterminate substance of reality, specifically an element in the universe that is subject to formation and transformation.
An atom is an empty ball of space with a small nucleus around which electrons orbit in a fixed orbit. An atom is not only small, it is essentially 99.9% empty space.

Einstein proved that E=mxc^2 holds, from which it follows that all matter consists of energy.

b) Matter-definition of Imam Ahmed Al Hassan a.s.

Matter is a void that can exist
The physical body is the appearance or manifestation of the perfect image in the matter-void that can exist. So taste, smell, hearing and other perceptions come from this physical body from the perfect image. And matter (which is the void that can exist) remains the same if:
- the image of a living body manifests in it, for example in an orange that looks, smells and tastes good
- the image of a dead body manifests in it, for example in a pig that stinks and is prohibited for consumption in Islam
In the book of Allegories, in question #28, he explains: Veils of Darkness are made of matter or emptiness and creation came into being with the brilliance of Light in Darkness (manifestation of Light in Darkness), hence it follows that: Matter=Darkness/Void/Ego/Closet and Creation =mixture of Darkness and Light in it
The veils of Darkness and Light can be lifted, by abandoning the objects of ignorance, bad morals and striving away from the Ego and its abandonment, the veils of Light can be lifted by knowledge and awareness of the objects of the mind and good morals in oneself and the ladder (metaphorically) rises in different positions /ranking
And even though matter is 99.9% empty space, it still contains energy.
Imam Ahmed Al Hassan a.s.: As for the world, the Qur'an clarifies the general law, which is as follows, that the whole world of bodies returns back to the original force that created them and will always remain so, with this force the world of bodies also rises (see Surah Al Anam 6:73)
And so, the Qu'ran explains that physical matter goes back to the energy force as it is called and matter is nothing but a condensation of energy. All this has been confirmed by Einstein's theory of relativity, laboratory experiments and the conversion of matter into energy and vice versa. (Al Jawab Al Munner vol.4 page 27-28)
it follows that: Matter=Energy=First Force=Original Source of Creation=Manifestation of Light in Darkness=Manifestation of Energy in Atom=Muhammad sawas
The explanation of this is in Ziyarat al Jamiah: Peace be upon the Ahlul Bayt and the city of the message and the city of the angels and the city from whence the revelation was sent down and the rest of what Allah swt has and His Lights, the creation returns to You and You judge it and with You is Heaven restrained from falling to the Earth except by Your permission, and they are Muhammad and his family (sawas)
Death is from the life of Muhammad and his family(sawas), Muhammad and his family(sawas) are pharaoh l.a. and Moses a.s. (in allegory).:
- not everyone understands this (may Allah swt give you success): with Muhammad and his family, everything in the world rises (with them, good rises as well as its opposite - evil)
Death cannot be except by ability and ability comes from life, and every life is established by their life(Al-Muhammad sawas), Pharaoh rises with them, Moses a.s. rises with them and Azrael rises with them.
So ability is from life and life is from energy.
Imam Ahmed Al Hassan explains in the book Glimpses of the Messengers' Calls:
Surah Al Baqarah(2:115) To Allah belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn is the Face of Allah, Verily Allah swt is All-Comprehensive, All-Knowing
Allah swt has no face or faces and anyone who believes this is a kaffir, like the disbelievers of Quraysh or even more disbelieving than them.
The face is what one faces and the face of truth and reality that Allah swt faced Al Muhammad sawas was His Holy Essence (Allah swt). As for the face of the Holy Essence with which He faces His creation, these are His Evidences (Hujjujullah), because they are the Face of Allah swt and they are His best names with which Allah swt faces His creation and by which Allah swt becomes recognizable.
Thus, wherever your Qiblah (direction of turning) towards Allah turns is the Face of Allah (the representative of Allah and His Evidence for creation), because his (Hujjujullah) soul is not limited to the limitations of bodies, because it is present and surrounds you from all sides. Whoever can understand these words will be able to understand the truth because Al Muhammad sawas is the food you eat and the water you drink and the air you breathe. Nabi Jesus, peace be upon him, said: "I am the bread of life"
And Al Muhammad sawas are Moses and Haman, Abraham and Nimrod and the fire of Abraham and his peace and coolness because the heart of the son of Adam is between the two fingers of the Merciful (Al Rahman) and Al Muhammad sawas are Al Rahman in creation, they are the creation of Allah and creation is their creation and Allah created them and from them he created the rest of creation (blessed is Allah the Best Creator)
From this it follows that we are all part of everyone and everything

c) without a source of energy, energy would cease to exist, and without energy, nothing remains in an atom, except for 99.9% emptiness
Question 29 from Allegories (Al Mutashabehat):
Why is it considered that without the Evidence of Allah or the Infallible on Earth, the Earth would melt together with its inhabitants as it is said from the Imams of Ahlul Bayt?

Abu Hamza asked Abu Abdullah a.s.: "Would the Earth cease to exist without the Imam?"

Abu Abdullah a.s. he replied: "If the Earth was left without an Imam, it would melt."
Abu Jaafaar a.s. said: "If the Imam were lifted from the Earth for one hour, the Earth would swell with its inhabitants as the ocean swells with its own."

This is true because the Proof of Allah a.s. the overflowing point that reaches the Earth if this happens, and because the existence of the Evidence is both in all the Heavens, in the high and holy positions, in its image on Earth it is in the navel of the embryo, namely in the place where the food is drawn from mother to the fetus, so its image is the umbilical canal that comes from Heaven to Earth, translating God's downfall to Earth. Through them you are sustained and through them the rain falls upon you.
Therefore, Evidence a.s. the strong rope of Allah and the pillar of Light that descends from the sky to the earth and without it the earth would melt, which means that the Divine Light would no longer reach the earth and it would decompose and its population would return to the essence of nothingness, so it is not possible fully explain the greatness of the reward and the benefits of Proof a.s. to all creation.

Jesus a.s. said: "Images are visible to men, but their Light is hidden in the image of the Light of the Father. He will be revealed, but his image is hidden with His Light."
 

justaguy313

Active Member
1. A look at the words of Imam Ahmed AlHassan a.s and Ahlul Bayt

From the book Al Jawab Al Muneer Part 6:

Imam Ahmed Al Hassan a.s. said: "As for the energy that is in it, it is the Light of Allah"
Al Jawab Al Muneer Part 4:

Imam Ahmed Al Hassan a.s. said: "The whole world of bodies returns to the first Force (the Light of Allah or Muhammad sawas) from which it was created and will always exist as such, that is the Force by which the world of bodies rises..."

So the Qu'ran confirms that physical matter returns to force or energy as they call it, because matter is nothing but a condensation of energy (besides the 99.9% void of course)

2. Matter does not exist, a scientific explanation by James J. Traitza, author of the book Don't Stop Your Thoughts:

We are taught to believe that we live in a physical material world. What is even worse is that they try to convince us that we are a biochemical physical creation. Religions try to convince us that we have a soul, but then where is this soul? And where on earth is the God who created this soul and how do we find it?

The harsh truth is that we do NOT live in a physical material world and that schools teach science from the 1940s and we have to inform ourselves about the rest of the science.

When we break down matter, we get molecules, when we break down molecules, we get atoms, when we break down atoms, we get protons, electrons and neutrons, when we start breaking down only these, the matter ends with energy, which is living energy. (this was discovered by Einstein and Werner Heisenberg)

There are many researchers who have studied subatomic particles.

This is important because if we open the main stream scientific book, it teaches us that everything we can see and touch, from the earth worm to our body, consists of atoms (nucleus: protons, neutrons, electrons around the nucleus) and IF protons, neutrons and orbiting electrons are not matter, but the FORM OF GRAVITATIONALLY TRAPPED LIGHT then matter does not exist.

Matter is a word that was discovered to develop other scientific theories, to discover scientific phenomena that are not properly understood. So if there is no matter around us physically and our bodies are not matter, then what are we and what is the universe that surrounds us?

3. Neither created nor destroyed

This is called the Law of Conservation of Mass, which states that the mass of an isolated system remains constant, regardless of the processes taking place within the system. It is valid in the non-relativistic approximation (a special theory of relativity that describes the movement of bodies outside the gravitational field - it was developed by Einstein in 1905, from this theory he later developed the general theory of relativity - see video)


The law of conservation of mass was already known to the ancient Greeks, and it basically means that nothing can come from nothing, which modern scientists have once again pondered only recently with the M-theory, which teaches that quantum fluctuations in a vacuum are possible, This is described in the blog Genesis of the Universe, and he says that the reason for the appearance of quantum oscillation in the vacuum before the Big Bang is that this material universe began with it, and that it produces an intelligent machine that is able to observe and understand the Universe and with quantum oscillation to make other possibilities for one event that collapses in this Universe and manifests itself in a partial function of the electron and the other number of possibilities of wave functions occur in the other Universes in the model of many Universes (M-theory)
4. Everything revolves around energy

-Wars in the world happen because of energy sources, the best example is oil

-Companies hire employees with the intention of using them (or their energy for work)

-Tyrants like Nimrod and Pharaoh oppressed people and used their energy as labor

-everything revolves around converting energy into practice and controlling energy sources, besides, humans are the primary force of energy in this material world

-people are like batteries: the human body produces more energy than a 120 volt battery and over 25000 BTUs/7326.77675 W of body heat

Honorable mention to Morpheus from the movie The Matrix: The Matrix is a computer generated dream world built to control us, with the aim of turning a human being into a battery

5. Also Iblis/Satan l.a. he was looking for energy

Imam Ahmed Al Hassan a.s. writes in his book The Calf:

-And Iblis (may Allah curse him) took note of some of this truth, but he decided to betray and because he did not bow down with the Angels, Allah swt punished him, he lost the rank of Angels, and all the Mercy of Allah, and was is brought down to Earth

-he looked at the material from which Adam's a.s. was built. body and compared it to the energy of fire from which Iblis l.a. built (all jinn are built from the essence of fire), and came to the conclusion that energy is more noble than matter

6. Warriors of the mind and warriors of ignorance

-Warriors of mind and ignorance are different paths

-Warriors of the mind are pathways that conserve energy

-Warriors of ignorance are paths that waste energy

When a person is full of energy, he feels energetic, but when he loses it, he needs rest.
Ameer Ul Momeneen a.s. (Imam Ali Bin Abi Talib) a.s. said: "There is no rest for the envious"

-The warriors of ignorance slow down the vibration of the human being, while the warriors of the mind speed it up
Example: When we speed up the movement of molecules, we get energy out, and since humans are basically a mass of molecules, these molecules begin to vibrate into energy whatever we do

7. Energy vibration

-For example, that we have the power to make an iron rod vibrate at any desired frequency in a dark room. At first, when it vibrated slowly, its movement would be felt with the sense of touch, when the vibration increased, a low sound would emanate from it, that is, the stick would be felt with two senses

- at 32,000 vibrations per second, the sound will be loud, but at 40,000 (some insects emit this frequency, which includes a 10 octave tone) vibrations, it will be quiet (the human brain only detects vibrations from 32-40,000 vibrations per second through hearing) and we will not hear it with our ears
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
We have different stances, no need to have a further conversation. I have stated my beliefs and you did yours. I have no desire to prove to you something which you deny.

Move on
There was no conversation that I can see. Just you making a bunch of Gish Gallop-type claims and not responding to points or arguments against them.

This is a debate forum, by the way.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
There have been many other ways in which creationist writers have used probability arguments to refute evolutionism, especially the idea of random changes preserved, if beneficial, by natural selection. James Coppedge devoted almost an entire book, Evolution: Possible or Impossible (Zondervan, 1973, 276 pp.), to this type of approach.

The first such book to use mathematics and probability in refuting evolution was written by a pastor, W. A. Williams, way back in 1928. Entitled, Evolution Disproved

In fact, evolutionists themselves have attacked traditional Darwinism on the same basis (see the Wistar Institute Symposium, Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution, 1967, 140 pp.). While these scientists did not reject evolution itself, they did insist that the Darwinian randomness postulate would never work.

Furthermore, since the law of increasing entropy, or the second law of thermodynamics, is essentially a statement of probabilities, many writers have also used that law itself to show that evolution on any significant scale is essentially impossible. Evolutionists have usually ignored the arguments or else used vacuous arguments against them ("Anything can happen given enough time"; "The earth is an open system, so the second law doesn't apply"; "Order can arise out of chaos through dissipative structures"; etc.).

In the real world of scientific observation, as opposed to metaphysical speculation, however, no more complex system can ever "evolve" out of a less complex system, so the probability of the naturalistic origin of even the simplest imaginary form of life is zero.

The existence of complexity of any kind is evidence of God and creation. "Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: He calleth them all by names by the greatness of His might, for that He is strong in power; not one faileth" (Isaiah 40:26).

ore complex system can ever "evolve" out of a less complex system, so the probability of the naturalistic origin of even the simplest imaginary form of life is zero.

The existence of complexity of any kind is evidence of God and creation. "Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: He calleth them all by names by the greatness of His might, for that He is strong in power; not one faileth" (Isaiah 40:26).
You forgot the cite the source you cribbed these outdated debunked arguments from:
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
According to the most-widely accepted theory of evolution today, the sole mechanism for producing evolution is that of random mutation combined with natural selection. Mutations are random changes in genetic systems. Natural selection is considered by evolutionists to be a sort of sieve, which retains the "good" mutations and allows the others to pass away.

Since random changes in ordered systems almost always will decrease the amount of order in those systems, nearly all mutations are harmful to the organisms which experience them. Nevertheless, the evolutionist insists that each complex organism in the world today has arisen by a long string of gradually accumulated good mutations preserved by natural selection. No one has ever actually observed a genuine mutation occurring in the natural environment which was beneficial (that is, adding useful genetic information to an existing genetic code), and therefore, retained by the selection process. For some reason, however, the idea has a certain persuasive quality about it and seems eminently reasonable to many people—until it is examined quantitatively, that is!

For example, consider a very simple putative organism composed of only 200 integrated and functioning parts, and the problem of deriving that organism by this type of process. The system presumably must have started with only one part and then gradually built itself up over many generations into its 200-part organization. The developing organism, at each successive stage, must itself be integrated and functioning in its environment in order to survive until the next stage. Each successive stage, of course, becomes statistically less likely than the preceding one, since it is far easier for a complex system to break down than to build itself up. A four-component integrated system can more easily "mutate" (that is, somehow suddenly change) into a three-component system (or even a four-component non-functioning system) than into a five-component integrated system. If, at any step in the chain, the system mutates "downward," then it is either destroyed altogether or else moves backward, in an evolutionary sense.

Therefore, the successful production of a 200-component functioning organism requires, at least, 200 successive, successful such "mutations," each of which is highly unlikely. Even evolutionists recognize that true mutations are very rare, and beneficial mutations are extremely rare—not more than one out of a thousand mutations are beneficial, at the very most.

But let's give the evolutionist the benefit of every consideration. Assume that, at each mutational step, there is equally as much chance for it to be good as bad. Thus, the probability for the success of each mutation is assumed to be one out of two, or one-half. Elementary statistical theory shows that the probability of 200 successive mutations being successful is then (½)200, or one chance out of 1060. The number 1060, if written out, would be "one" followed by sixty "zeros." In other words, the chance that a 200-component organism could be formed by mutation and natural selection is less than one chance out of a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion! Lest anyone think that a 200-part system is unreasonably complex, it should be noted that even a one-celled plant or animal may have millions of molecular "parts."

The evolutionist might react by saying that even though any one such mutating organism might not be successful, surely some around the world would be, especially in the 10 billion years (or 1018 seconds) of assumed earth history. Therefore, let us imagine that every one of the earth's 1014 square feet of surface harbors a billion (i.e., 109) mutating systems and that each mutation requires one-half second (actually it would take far more time than this). Each system can thus go through its 200 mutations in 100 seconds and then, if it is unsuccessful, start over for a new try. In 1018 seconds, there can, therefore, be 1018/102, or 1016, trials by each mutating system. Multiplying all these numbers together, there would be a total possible number of attempts to develop a 200-component system equal to 1014 (109) (1016), or 1039 attempts. Since the probability against the success of any one of them is 1060, it is obvious that the probability that just one of these 1039 attempts might be successful is only one out of 1060/1039, or 1021.

All this means that the chance that any kind of a 200-component integrated functioning organism could be developed by mutation and natural selection just once, anywhere in the world, in all the assumed expanse of geologic time, is less than one chance out of a billion trillion. What possible conclusion, therefore, can we derive from such considerations as this except that evolution by mutation and natural selection is mathematically and logically indefensible
You forgot to cite your source for this too:


I could tell from the language used that it came from a creationist source instead of a scientific one.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
That is like saying, 95 % of priests say God is true, so it must be true.
No, it isn't. Because many of the scientists who accept evolution are also religious. Francis Collins, for example, is a physician/geneticist who led the Human Genome Project, accepts evolution, and also identifies as a Catholic.an evangelical Christian.

The thing about science is that it follows the evidence.
The problem is, no one has observed it 100.000 years. It is possible that same effect happens many times in a year, or is caused by some other event.
If nobody observes a murder, does that mean it's impossible to determine who the murderer is? Of course not. There is evidence that can be examined in light of other evidence.
You don't see the evidence, because you don't understand how it happened.
Then go ahead and enlighten everyone. What is this evidence you speak of?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Chaos theory? You must be joking, what are you an agent of Illuminati?
No, read the book Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick

and repond to the thread referenced.
a) Matter-scientific definition

Matter is the substance from which a physical object is composed
The material substance that occupies space has mass and is composed mainly of atoms, which are composed of protons, electrons and neutrons, which form the observable Universe, which is exchangeable with energy.
Matter is an indeterminate substance of reality, specifically an element in the universe that is subject to formation and transformation.
An atom is an empty ball of space with a small nucleus around which electrons orbit in a fixed orbit. An atom is not only small, it is essentially 99.9% empty space.

Einstein proved that E=mxc^2 holds, from which it follows that all matter consists of energy.
True. So what?
b) Matter-definition of Imam Ahmed Al Hassan a.s.

Matter is a void that can exist
The physical body is the appearance or manifestation of the perfect image in the matter-void that can exist. So taste, smell, hearing and other perceptions come from this physical body from the perfect image. And matter (which is the void that can exist) remains the same if:
- the image of a living body manifests in it, for example in an orange that looks, smells and tastes good
- the image of a dead body manifests in it, for example in a pig that stinks and is prohibited for consumption in Islam
In the book of Allegories, in question #28, he explains: Veils of Darkness are made of matter or emptiness and creation came into being with the brilliance of Light in Darkness (manifestation of Light in Darkness), hence it follows that: Matter=Darkness/Void/Ego/Closet and Creation =mixture of Darkness and Light in it
The veils of Darkness and Light can be lifted, by abandoning the objects of ignorance, bad morals and striving away from the Ego and its abandonment, the veils of Light can be lifted by knowledge and awareness of the objects of the mind and good morals in oneself and the ladder (metaphorically) rises in different positions /ranking
And even though matter is 99.9% empty space, it still contains energy.
Imam Ahmed Al Hassan a.s.: As for the world, the Qur'an clarifies the general law, which is as follows, that the whole world of bodies returns back to the original force that created them and will always remain so, with this force the world of bodies also rises (see Surah Al Anam 6:73)
And so, the Qu'ran explains that physical matter goes back to the energy force as it is called and matter is nothing but a condensation of energy. All this has been confirmed by Einstein's theory of relativity, laboratory experiments and the conversion of matter into energy and vice versa. (Al Jawab Al Munner vol.4 page 27-28)
it follows that: Matter=Energy=First Force=Original Source of Creation=Manifestation of Light in Darkness=Manifestation of Energy in Atom=Muhammad sawas
The explanation of this is in Ziyarat al Jamiah: Peace be upon the Ahlul Bayt and the city of the message and the city of the angels and the city from whence the revelation was sent down and the rest of what Allah swt has and His Lights, the creation returns to You and You judge it and with You is Heaven restrained from falling to the Earth except by Your permission, and they are Muhammad and his family (sawas)
Death is from the life of Muhammad and his family(sawas), Muhammad and his family(sawas) are pharaoh l.a. and Moses a.s. (in allegory).:
- not everyone understands this (may Allah swt give you success): with Muhammad and his family, everything in the world rises (with them, good rises as well as its opposite - evil)
Death cannot be except by ability and ability comes from life, and every life is established by their life(Al-Muhammad sawas), Pharaoh rises with them, Moses a.s. rises with them and Azrael rises with them.
So ability is from life and life is from energy.
Imam Ahmed Al Hassan explains in the book Glimpses of the Messengers' Calls:
Surah Al Baqarah(2:115) To Allah belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn is the Face of Allah, Verily Allah swt is All-Comprehensive, All-Knowing
Allah swt has no face or faces and anyone who believes this is a kaffir, like the disbelievers of Quraysh or even more disbelieving than them.
The face is what one faces and the face of truth and reality that Allah swt faced Al Muhammad sawas was His Holy Essence (Allah swt). As for the face of the Holy Essence with which He faces His creation, these are His Evidences (Hujjujullah), because they are the Face of Allah swt and they are His best names with which Allah swt faces His creation and by which Allah swt becomes recognizable.
Thus, wherever your Qiblah (direction of turning) towards Allah turns is the Face of Allah (the representative of Allah and His Evidence for creation), because his (Hujjujullah) soul is not limited to the limitations of bodies, because it is present and surrounds you from all sides. Whoever can understand these words will be able to understand the truth because Al Muhammad sawas is the food you eat and the water you drink and the air you breathe. Nabi Jesus, peace be upon him, said: "I am the bread of life"
And Al Muhammad sawas are Moses and Haman, Abraham and Nimrod and the fire of Abraham and his peace and coolness because the heart of the son of Adam is between the two fingers of the Merciful (Al Rahman) and Al Muhammad sawas are Al Rahman in creation, they are the creation of Allah and creation is their creation and Allah created them and from them he created the rest of creation (blessed is Allah the Best Creator)
From this it follows that we are all part of everyone and everything.
Too ancient and archaic to be relevant today
c) without a source of energy, energy would cease to exist, and without energy, nothing remains in an atom, except for 99.9% emptiness
Question 29 from Allegories (Al Mutashabehat):
Why is it considered that without the Evidence of Allah or the Infallible on Earth, the Earth would melt together with its inhabitants as it is said from the Imams of Ahlul Bayt?
Abu Hamza asked Abu Abdullah a.s.: "Would the Earth cease to exist without the Imam?"

Abu Abdullah a.s. he replied: "If the Earth was left without an Imam, it would melt."
Abu Jaafaar a.s. said: "If the Imam were lifted from the Earth for one hour, the Earth would swell with its inhabitants as the ocean swells with its own."

This is true because the Proof of Allah a.s. the overflowing point that reaches the Earth if this happens, and because the existence of the Evidence is both in all the Heavens, in the high and holy positions, in its image on Earth it is in the navel of the embryo, namely in the place where the food is drawn from mother to the fetus, so its image is the umbilical canal that comes from Heaven to Earth, translating God's downfall to Earth. Through them you are sustained and through them the rain falls upon you.
Therefore, Evidence a.s. the strong rope of Allah and the pillar of Light that descends from the sky to the earth and without it the earth would melt, which means that the Divine Light would no longer reach the earth and it would decompose and its population would return to the essence of nothingness, so it is not possible fully explain the greatness of the reward and the benefits of Proof a.s. to all creation.

Jesus a.s. said: "Images are visible to men, but their Light is hidden in the image of the Light of the Father. He will be revealed, but his image is hidden with His Light."

Religious belief and not relevant to science today. You have not reponed to my post and read current scientific references concerning the problem of randomness and the pseudoscience of irreducible complexity.


Creationism Portal · v • d • e

Irreducible complexity (IC) is an argument made by intelligent design proponents that certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved from simpler, or "less complete" predecessors, and are at the same time too complex to have arisen naturally through chance mutations. It is one of two main arguments intended to support intelligent design, the other being specified complexity.[1]
Contrary to the claims of intelligent design supporters, the consensus of the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science,[2][3][4] but creationism.[5][6][7][8] In 2005 in the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial in which Behe testified in support of his claims about irreducible complexity the United States federal court ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents",[9] and that "Professor Behe's claim for irreducible complexity has been refuted in peer-reviewed research papers and has been rejected by the scientific community at large."

Read further for details . . .

I checked out threads on rf and found them inadequate to address the problem of irreducible complexity. I will start a thread on this topic.

I will also start a thread on the topic on the bogus claims that the Second Law of Thermodynamics and entropy determine evolution cannot happen
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I recommend you to read the Bible again. Rain was only a part of it. Large part of the water came form the "fountains of the great deep". The great deep is the water that was below the original continent. And fountains of great deep are like geysers. My guess is that meteor hit the original continent, probably on Yucatán peninsula, which then caused the original continent to brake up into modern continents. It caused the cracks to the original continent, probably lot of those int eh area of Mid-Atlantic ridge. And there the water and water vapor came first from small cracks, like in geysers, causing the heavy rain and flooding.

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day all the fountains of the great deep were burst open, and the sky's win-dows were opened. The rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.
Gen. 7:11-12
And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and covered are all the high mountains which are under the whole heavens; fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered;
Gen. 7:19-20
all in whose nostrils is breath of a living spirit--of all that is in the dry land--have died. And wiped away is all the substance that is on the face of the ground, from man unto beast, unto creeping thing, and unto fowl of the heavens; yea, they are wiped away from the earth, and only Noah is left, and those who are with him in the ark;
Gen. 7:22-23

So, in Biblical point of view earth (=dry land) was formed like this:

View attachment 85915
You lost me at, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, ..."
 

justaguy313

Active Member
There was no conversation that I can see. Just you making a bunch of Gish Gallop-type claims and not responding to points or arguments against them.

This is a debate forum, by the way.

What was your argument exactly? That I am a creationist and I don't know anything about science. I will debate people who show some respect not feed the random trolls.
 

justaguy313

Active Member
No, read the book Chaos: Making a New Science by James Gleick

and repond to the thread referenced.

True. So what?

Too ancient and archaic to be relevant today



Religious belief and not relevant to science today. You have not reponed to my post and read current scientific references concerning the problem of randomness and the pseudoscience of irreducible complexity.


Creationism Portal · v • d • e

Irreducible complexity (IC) is an argument made by intelligent design proponents that certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved from simpler, or "less complete" predecessors, and are at the same time too complex to have arisen naturally through chance mutations. It is one of two main arguments intended to support intelligent design, the other being specified complexity.[1]
Contrary to the claims of intelligent design supporters, the consensus of the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science,[2][3][4] but creationism.[5][6][7][8] In 2005 in the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District trial in which Behe testified in support of his claims about irreducible complexity the United States federal court ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents",[9] and that "Professor Behe's claim for irreducible complexity has been refuted in peer-reviewed research papers and has been rejected by the scientific community at large."

Read further for details . . .

I checked out threads on rf and found them inadequate to address the problem of irreducible complexity. I will start a thread on this topic.

I will also start a thread on the topic on the bogus claims that the Second Law of Thermodynamics and entropy determine evolution cannot happen

Whatever chief. To you your religion and to me mine. You can start whatever you like, that doesn't mean a thing and you didn't prove a thing with claiming that what I post is an arhaic nonsense. So knock yourself out if you want
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Whatever chief. To you your religion and to me mine. You can start whatever you like, that doesn't mean a thing and you didn't prove a thing with claiming that what I post is an arhaic nonsense. So knock yourself out if you want
They were pointing out that your arguments are outdated, as far as the science goes. Science has come a long way since the 1920's.

Also, they are points that have been debunked over the years, many times over, and as such, are not good arguments in favour of your position.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Whatever chief. To you your religion and to me mine. You can start whatever you like, that doesn't mean a thing and you didn't prove a thing with claiming that what I post is an arhaic nonsense. So knock yourself out if you want
Classic denial. My posts and references do not reflect any one religion. They reflect the current academic math and science, which you choose to conveniently ignore with dishonest pseudoscience posts, which you cannot defend based on factual science..
 

justaguy313

Active Member
Classic denial. My posts and references do not reflect any one religion. They reflect the current academic math and science, which you choose to conveniently ignore with dishonest pseudoscience posts, which you cannot defend based on factual science..

I think we said to each other what we meant. I won't engage in further meaningless conversation with a person who disregards views of people because of their religion. If you think you got something to prove, then do so. Ad hominem attacks with baseless arguments that ''the science knows best'' prove nothing. What would I need to defend, since you didn't write one valid counterargument to what I wrote? When you will address my points with at least researching what I wrote, then maybe we can talk further.
 

justaguy313

Active Member
They were pointing out that your arguments are outdated, as far as the science goes. Science has come a long way since the 1920's.

Also, they are points that have been debunked over the years, many times over, and as such, are not good arguments in favour of your position.

It is clear to everyone that you're a provoking troll. I don't debate trolls, so find another victim

Bye
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I think we said to each other what we meant. I won't engage in further meaningless conversation with a person who disregards views of people because of their religion. If you think you got something to prove, then do so. Ad hominem attacks with baseless arguments that ''the science knows best'' prove nothing. What would I need to defend, since you didn't write one valid counterargument to what I wrote? When you will address my points with at least researching what I wrote, then maybe we can talk further.
I do not disregard your views on science, because of your religion. I presented a sound science and math based argument with references that your view on evolution, Intelligent Design, Randomness of nature, entropy, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics is false, and you have not defended your view based on science.
 

justaguy313

Active Member
I do not disregard your views on science, because of your religion. I presented a sound science and math based argument with references that your view on evolution, Intelligent Design, Randomness of nature, entropy, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics is false, and you have not defended your view based on science.
True. So what?

Too ancient and archaic to be relevant today



Religious belief and not relevant to science today. You have not reponed to my post and read current scientific references concerning the problem of randomness and the pseudoscience of irreducible complexity.




You said it chief. Why should I need to respond to your arguments if you think that you're too intelligent that you don't have to address mine?

As I said, knock yourself out if you think that you have proven something. Maybe you will win a Nobel prize,, who knows? ;)
 
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