The problem of Creationism in Islam rejecting the science of evolution.

[shunyadragon]

You said it chief. Why should I need to respond to your arguments if you think that you're too intelligent that you don't have to address mine?

As I said, knock yourself out if you think that you have proven something. Maybe you will win a Nobel prize,, who knows?

I responded to your posts concerning science with references and you are unable to respond,

 

[SkepticThinker]

It is clear to everyone that you're a provoking troll. I don't debate trolls, so find another victim

Bye

It appears you are projecting.

I've argued against the points you've made. Your response was to change the subject and post something about another topic.
I've posed questions to you in regards to what you've said in your posts. Your response? Not one answer to any of them. Change of subject.
I've pointed out that your arguments are out-of-date, from a scientific perspective. Your response was to take offence and call me a troll.
I corrected your understanding of what a scientific theory is. Your response? Nothing. Never mentioned it again.

Mind you, this is all going on in a debate forum, where back-and-forth exchanges are meant to take place.

As of this moment, you have not addressed one single thing I've written in my posts to you.
So, I'm sorry to tell you, but that makes you the troll.

 

[justaguy313]

It appears you are projecting.

I've argued against the points you've made. Your response was to change the subject and post something about another topic.
I've posed questions to you in regards to what you've said in your posts. Your response? Not one answer to any of them. Change of subject.
I've pointed out that your arguments are out-of-date, from a scientific perspective. Your response was to take offence and call me a troll.
I corrected your understanding of what a scientific theory is. Your response? Nothing. Never mentioned it again.

Mind you, this is all going on in a debate forum, where back-and-forth exchanges are meant to take place.

As of this moment, you have not addressed one single thing I've written in my posts to you.
So, I'm sorry to tell you, but that makes you the troll.

And I have very well responded to you with comprehensive answers. I'm not responsible for what you understand or think and if you think that I must respond to every person in this topic addressing me, then you must be out of your mind. I'll respond to what I deem appropriate and if you feel offended that's your problem not mine.

 

[justaguy313]

I responded to your posts concerning science with references and you are unable to respond,

References burning creationists at the stake response? No need to

 

[SkepticThinker]

And I have very well responded to you with comprehensive answers. I'm not responsible for what you understand or think and if you think that I must respond to every person in this topic addressing me, then you must be out of your mind. I'll respond to what I deem appropriate and if you feel offended that's your problem not mine.

Please provide the post numbers to these "comprehensive answers" because I do not see them anywhere.

I've not suggested you're responsible for what I think. And I'm not offended. That appears to be you. I'm just trying to engage in a debate discussion, which is what goes on here.

 

[justaguy313]

Please provide the post numbers to these "comprehensive answers" because I do not see them anywhere.

I've not suggested you're responsible for what I think. And I'm not offended. That appears to be you. I'm just trying to engage in a debate discussion, which is what goes on here.

No you're not. You're here to express platitudes of opinions of what's right and what's wrong. That is how I see it at least. What exactly do you want from me? To scrutinize your posts? I don't see that you really said anything meaningful.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No you're not. You're here to express platitudes of opinions of what's right and what's wrong. That is how I see it at least. What exactly do you want from me? To scrutinize your posts? I don't see that you really said anything meaningful.

I've been here on this forum for years debating a wide variety of topics with a wide variety of people. You don't get to tell me why I'm here. Please notice how I keep asking to get back to the discussion, while you just keep up with ... whatever this is supposed to be. Avoidance, I guess.

What I want from you, is a back-and-forth exchange of ideas, where we each respond to each other's points and arguments. It's called a debate. Like I said. That's what goes on here in this debate forum.

I'd love to know which posts of yours contain the comprehensive answers you've claimed to have given. I just can't find them. Can you give me the numbers, perhaps?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Unfortunately for you, you can't demonstrate that to be true.

Why do you think that he can't?

 

[Monty]

Does not make sense. The flood was described as it was believed to happen. Actually the Pentateuch was compiled after 600 BCE, and the writers did not see anything.

IOW the writer said the flood was only 15 cubits high, which it why it subsequently drained away.

The Bible does not refer to a group of Hills. It refers to mountains in Hebrew.

Same same

That however is literally what was written in the text describing the flood in Hebrew. The writers when compiled after 600 BCE did not see anything.

The story was either a complete fantasy, or it was based on a particular river flood which drowned most of the people and their animals in the flooded area.

No, as far as the Bible in Hebrew described it was a world flood covering the mountains and all humans and animals perished that were not on the Ark.

And that was in the flooded area as seen by a witness.

It is true that the origin of the story was an earlier Sumerian account of catastrophic flood of the Tigris Euphrates Valley, which also described it as world flood,

And the world was defined by an observer who saw that the world extended to the horizon and enclosed within the domed heavens.

The reality is that the Noah's flood never happened, Noah is a mythical figure, and it is a myth though sincerely believed by those that compiled the Pentateuch after 600 BCE. Your interpretation of local flood in 'Noah's little world' is not productive of an event that never happened. It is a severe stretch of an interpretation on your part what you think should have happened, and not what is described in Hebrew.

Even if the story is just a myth, the writer still based it on actual flood events which drowned people and their animals.
But either way the bible still says that the flood height was 15 cubits and does not say that the highest mountains were covered by 15 cubits.

This does not remotely effect the intent of the writers as they described it in Hebrew regardless of the shape of the earth. The world of the writers in 600 BCE was not just a 'Little World of Noah' included the Levant, Babylonia, Egypt,, Arabia, much of Africa, Turkey and the Mediterranean region at minimum. Even though the whole thing is a myth and never happened in the Levant, The account is believed as described by Jews, Muslims and Christians as an actual event as described up until the 18th century. IT is only in recent history that the account of the flood and the historical accounts are seriously questioned, and the Pentateuch is not a reliable historical account.

But the story teller wouldn't have known anything about Egypt or Turkey or the Mediterranean or Africa if the story was based on floods on the Tigris-Euphrates, and would have only seen his world as a flat immovable disc as described by the writer of Isaiah 40:22.

 

[Monty]

I
And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and covered are all the high mountains which are under the whole heavens; fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered;
Gen. 7:19-20
all in whose nostrils is breath of a living spirit--of all that is in the dry land--have died. And wiped away is all the substance that is on the face of the ground, from man unto beast, unto creeping thing, and unto fowl of the heavens; yea, they are wiped away from the earth, and only Noah is left, and those who are with him in the ark;

View attachment 85915

IOW the bible says that the flood which drowned most of Noah's family and their animals was 15 cubits high, and that it drained away like every other similar flood before and since.

And the "years" described in the Gen 5 genealogy are easily observed lunar cycles of ~29 days and not solar cycles of 365 days. Thus Adam first became pregnant at aged ~11 years old and not a ridiculous 130 "years" (Gen 5:1-3). And Noah's sister (Naamah) gave birth to Shem Ham & Japheth at aged ~40 years old and not a silly 500 "years" (Gen 5:32). And Noah's grandfather was drowned at aged ~80 years old and not an absurd 969 "years" (Gen 5:27).

 

[Monty]

Sorry, I don't believe that.

So how do you explain why there are six distinct biogeographical zones with their own unique ranges of flora and fauna?

And why aren't kangaroos and echidnas also native to the middle eastern countries as hypothesized by those who believe Mount Everest was covered by 15 cubits of water after the ocean level increased by over nine metres per hour for 40 days less than 4000 years ago?

 

[Eli G]

Again:

Gen. 7:18 The waters became overwhelming and kept increasing greatly upon the earth, but the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19 The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose up to 15 cubits above the mountains.
21 So all living creatures that were moving on the earth perished—the flying creatures, the domestic animals, the wild animals, the swarming creatures, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 So He wiped every living thing from the surface of the earth, including man, animals, creeping animals, and the flying creatures of the sky. They were all wiped off the earth; only Noah and those with him in the ark survived.
...8:1 But God gave attention to Noah and to all the wild animals and domestic animals that were with him in the ark, and God caused a wind to blow over the earth, and the waters began to subside.

When it says: all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered and after that "fifteen cubits above the mountains"

... it obviously means that among ALL THE HIGH HILLS/MOUNTAINS is included THE HIGHEST ONE of all of them, so the 15 cubits were from the highest mountain upward ... not 9 meters from the river level or any other hill besides the tallest one .

The account is talking about the WHOLE EARTH, UNDER THE WHOLE HEAVEN being covered.

The Deluge that the Scriptures refer is global:

1 Pet. 3:20 (...) God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

Matt. 24:37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

If the Deluge had not been global, all the years of building the ark (an immense ship) would have been avoided only if Noah and his family, without even worrying about any animal to survive, had made a trip to a distant land that did not would be affected by that supposed local flood. Obviously, the Bible story is about a planetary Deluge.

There are proofs of a global deluge all around the planet. Atheists and others confound these proofs with other events they say occurred also in the past.

1) Marine fossils in high lands,
2) heavy transformations of the terrain all around the planet,
3) animals found frozen whose digestive condition shows they were surprised by a sudden catastrophe
4) agglomerations of hundreds of skeletons of non-native animals in remote caves,
5) stories of the flood in hundreds of ancient communities,
6) the fact that the diversity of civilizations and human language converge in the same area that coincides with the settlement of Noah and his family post- Deluge,
7) dozens of cities sunk in the depths of the sea
8) the fact that the time of the formation of modern civilizations coincides with the time that the Bible assigns to the event of the Flood, etc.

 

[Monty]

Again:

Gen. 7:18 The waters became overwhelming and kept increasing greatly upon the earth, but the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19 The waters overwhelmed the earth so greatly that all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose up to 15 cubits above the mountains.
21 So all living creatures that were moving on the earth perished—the flying creatures, the domestic animals, the wild animals, the swarming creatures, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 So He wiped every living thing from the surface of the earth, including man, animals, creeping animals, and the flying creatures of the sky. They were all wiped off the earth; only Noah and those with him in the ark survived.
...8:1 But God gave attention to Noah and to all the wild animals and domestic animals that were with him in the ark, and God caused a wind to blow over the earth, and the waters began to subside.

When it says: all the tall mountains under the whole heavens were covered and after that "fifteen cubits above the mountains"

... it obviously means that among ALL THE HIGH HILLS/MOUNTAINS is included THE HIGHEST ONE of all of them, so the 15 cubits were from the highest mountain upward ... not 9 meters from the river level or any other hill besides the tallest one .

The account is talking about the WHOLE EARTH, UNDER THE WHOLE HEAVEN being covered.

The Deluge that the Scriptures refer is global:

1 Pet. 3:20 (...) God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

Matt. 24:37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

If the Deluge had not been global, all the years of building the ark (an immense ship) would have been avoided only if Noah and his family, without even worrying about any animal to survive, had made a trip to a distant land that did not would be affected by that supposed local flood. Obviously, the Bible story is about a planetary Deluge.

There are proofs of a global deluge all around the planet. Atheists and others confound these proofs with other events they say occurred also in the past.

1) Marine fossils in high lands,
2) heavy transformations of the terrain all around the planet,
3) animals found frozen whose digestive condition shows they were surprised by a sudden catastrophe
4) agglomerations of hundreds of skeletons of non-native animals in remote caves,
5) stories of the flood in hundreds of ancient communities,
6) the fact that the diversity of civilizations and human language converge in the same area that coincides with the settlement of Noah and his family post- Deluge,
7) dozens of cities sunk in the depths of the sea
8) the fact that the time of the formation of modern civilizations coincides with the time that the Bible assigns to the event of the Flood, etc.

WRONG.
The KJV and Orthodox Jewish Bible and Youngs' Literal Translation etc clearly say the flood which drowned most of Noah's family was only 15 cubits high, and DO NOT SAY that the "mountains" were covered by 15 cubits, let alone Mt Everest or even Mt Ararat. And the bible says that Noah's brothers Jabal & Jubal and their families obviously weren't drowned since they are the fathers of all nomadic herders and musical instrument makers (Gen 4:20-21) and were therefore living outside the flooded area - or so the story goes.


KJV
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
OJB
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise; and the harim were covered.
YLT
fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered;

 

[shunyadragon]

IOW the writer said the flood was only 15 cubits high, which it why it subsequently drained away.

No it was higher than the mountains according all translation and the Hebrew.

Same same

The story was either a complete fantasy, or it was based on a particular river flood which drowned most of the people and their animals in the flooded area.

It was most definitely a complete myth.

And that was in the flooded area as seen by a witness.

No witnesses of records dated to the time of the flood. Hebrew language did not exist, It was not written until after 600 BCE

And the world was defined by an observer who saw that the world extended to the horizon and enclosed within the domed heavens.

I do not believe you can assume knowledge of the known world and rational conclusion of the extent of the flood. First, the scripture of the Pentateuch are not based the natural rational knowledge of the world as a criteria, because Jews, Christians and Muslims believed in a world flood covering the earth and all the humans and animals up until the 18th century when the doubt of the Pentateuch being literal history began to have cracks with advent of modern science. Knowing full well the extent of today's world many Christians and Muslims belive in a complete world flood.

There were no recorded observers, Nosh's flood is a myth written into the Pentateuch after 500 BCE

Even if the story is just a myth, the writer still based it on actual flood events which drowned people and their animals.

It was a myth No it was not based on an actual flood event in the Levant. There wa sno such flood.

But either way the bible still says that the flood height was 15 cubits and does not say that the highest mountains were covered by 15 cubits.

No it says the mountains were covered and all the himans and animals perished except what was on the Ark. It was simply a myth and never happened in the Levant.

But the story teller wouldn't have known anything about Egypt or Turkey or the Mediterranean or Africa if the story was based on floods on the Tigris-Euphrates, and would have only seen his world as a flat immovable disc as described by the writer of Isaiah 40:22.

There is no known story teller before 600 BCE concerning the flood before 600 BCE in the Levant.Those that recorded the Pentateuch after 600 BCE knew very well about the vastness of the world including Egypt, Turkey, the Tygris Euphrates Valley, and actually the Mediterrranian world and they recorded it as as world flood of all the known world at minimum and all the humans and animals perished.

 

[Monty]

No it was higher than the mountains according all translation and the Hebrew.

At least the story in the KJV and Othodox Jewish Bible and Young's Literal Translation etc clearly say the flood was a realistic 15 cubits high even if the story is just a myth, whereas the false personal interpretations in other versions say nothing at all about the actual flood height and are therefore just meaningless fantasies.

 

[shunyadragon]

At least the story in the KJV and Othodox Jewish Bible and Young's Literal Translation etc clearly say the flood was a realistic 15 cubits high even if the story is just a myth, whereas the false personal interpretations in other versions say nothing at all about the actual flood height and are therefore just meaningless fantasies.

No, the flood covered the mountains in all versions. I believe that Rabbis have the corre\ct understanding of the scripture and the intent of the writers. in Hebrew without trying to manipulate the scripture and the intent of the writers. It is their book in their language.

Some Reform Rabbis do consider the Noah's flood a myth..

 

[Monty]

No, the flood covered the mountains in all versions. I believe that Rabbis have the corre\ct understanding of the scripture and the intent of the writers. in Hebrew without trying to manipulate the scripture and the intent of the writers. It is their book in their language.

Some Reform Rabbis do consider the Noah's flood a myth..

The KJV and Orthodox Jewish Bible and Young's Literal Translation etc, however, clearly say that the total flood height was only 15 cubits and is obviously the original intent of the writer, and do not say that the "mountains" were covered by 15 cubits, which is in complete contrast to other personal interpretations which say absolutely nothing at all about the actual flood height and therefore totally meaningless.

And that is just that particular rabbi's personal opinion. But has that rabbi actually seen the original text? And everyone knows that if you ask two rabbis their opinion then you will get at least three different answers.

 

[justaguy313]

Humanity has pondered over the origin of life, and has searched for answers in religion and science.
Both fields have tried to explain the origin of life. From theories such as the Big Bang to Evolution,
for many, science has provided a satisfactory explanation that replaces theistic arguments. Over the
last century, the Theory of Evolution, which began with Charles Darwin, has become a mainstream
belief. In our times, avowed atheists propagate it and anti-theist scientists like Richard Dawkins
have popularized the idea through books like The God Delusion . For the most part, the propagation
has been effective.
Charles Darwin traveled around the world where he would catalog the local plants and animals.
On one of his trips to the Galapagos Islands, he noticed non-identical species of finches with each
species having a slightly different beak. Years later, he would come up with the idea that these
species all must have a common ancestor. These differences must be due to adaptation to new
circumstances over time. As a result, they evolved slightly according to their environment. Thus,
similarities in species and adaptation became the basis for the Theory of Evolution.
Darwin concluded through analogy, that living beings that looked similar must have a common
origin that adapted to new conditions. Over a long period, the differences and changes would
become so many that they give rise to a new species. Thus, the reason for the changes would be the
factor that would allow one species to survive and others to become extinct. He called this law the
survival of the fittest . Therefore, according to Darwin, evolution was necessary to adapt and survive.
Through natural selection, the strongest in nature survived and they had similar features. Finally,
their shared features pointed to a common ancestor and origin.
One day someone asked Imam Ahmed Al-Hassan (From Him is Peace), “ Is the theory of
Evolution correct? ”
The Imam (From Him is Peace) said, “ The theory of evolution is one of the dumbest theories out
there. Iblis is the one who taught Darwin the Theory of Evolution. ”
Someone said, “ Can you help me with a small piece of information about the origin of life? There
are a lot of similarities between humans and other species. ”
The Imam (From Him is Peace) said, “ For example, who does the human resemble? ”
The person said, “ Humans and apes for example, and there are other organs or parts in our bodies
that resemble other species. ”
The Imam (From Him is Peace) said, “ There is a resemblance as well between some aquatic species
and some mammals, and there are also plants that resemble mammals. And there are also stones that
were formed to look like human faces and animals and plants by natural events such as wind and
rain. So, are these stones now biologically related to humans? Of course not. The answer is no, there is
no relationship between apes and humans. ”
The person said, “ So what about the origin of life? ”
The Imam (From Him is Peace) said, “ It was with Adam (PBUH). He is the first human
creation. ”
We have included here some images of inanimate beings that resemble human or animal
anatomy. If the Theory of Evolution claims that resemblance between species means there is a
biological relationship, then these plants and stones should be biologically related to us as well. In
this argument, the Imam (From Him is Peace) is saying that similarity is not a sucient condition
to prove the basic tenets of the Theory of Evolution. Furthermore, this theory does not even
consider an extraterrestrial source for life on Earth. Thus, the Imam (From Him is Peace) is
categorically rejecting any truth in the Theory of Evolution.


According to science, modern humans ( Homo sapiens ) evolved from an earlier form known as
Homo habilis or Homo erectus . Scientists discovered their fossils in Africa and identifieed similar
features to modern humans like their body proportion, size, and hands. They believe that these
features are the result of adaptation from living in trees to living on the ground. However, these
assumptions are false. Imam Ahmed Al-Hassan (From Him is Peace) debunks this myth by
revealing the reality of the Haytan. The Haytan are human ape-like species that lived on the planet
and still do to this very day.
I said, “ The creature that the natives call Bigfoot or Yeti, that resembles the Haytan… ”
The Imam (From Him is Peace) said, “ Those are the descendants of the Haytan. ”
I said, “ Glory be to God. ”
The Imam (From Him is Peace) said, “ I told you before, there are still many of them still alive
today. ”

-Goal of the wise by Aba Sadiq from him is peace, door number 25-Alien life and extraterrestrials

You can download the book Goal of the wise here for free

It appears you are projecting.

I've argued against the points you've made. Your response was to change the subject and post something about another topic.
I've posed questions to you in regards to what you've said in your posts. Your response? Not one answer to any of them. Change of subject.
I've pointed out that your arguments are out-of-date, from a scientific perspective. Your response was to take offence and call me a troll.
I corrected your understanding of what a scientific theory is. Your response? Nothing. Never mentioned it again.

Mind you, this is all going on in a debate forum, where back-and-forth exchanges are meant to take place.

As of this moment, you have not addressed one single thing I've written in my posts to you.
So, I'm sorry to tell you, but that makes you the troll.

Mockery is not a response. At least not a legitimate one for having a person a need to debate you

Just bug off

 

[1213]

So how do you explain why there are six distinct biogeographical zones with their own unique ranges of flora and fauna?

By that different species survive in different places.

And why aren't kangaroos and echidnas also native to the middle eastern countries as hypothesized by those who believe Mount Everest was covered by 15 cubits of water after the ocean level increased by over nine metres per hour for 40 days less than 4000 years ago?

For example kangaroos, maybe they got killed in middle eastern countries long time ago and survived only in Australia.

I think you still don't understand how the flood happened.

 

[1213]

IOW the bible says that the flood which drowned most of Noah's family and their animals was 15 cubits high,

On top of mountains.