• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The problem of Creationism in Islam rejecting the science of evolution.

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Omg, are you really using this evidence?

These examples you cite, they are recorded in stone...you know that right? They aren't relevant to the point I made that you are responding to.

Your dating is incorrect. The bibles internally recorded historical account is in excess of 6500 years...not merely 600 b.c just because YOU claim 600 b.c given that's the date of the oldest extant evidence doesnt prove anything other than, thst piece of evidence was 600 b.c.

No not only in stone, on papyrus, and clay tablets found in Canaanite libraries and in the archaeological sites Sinai peninsula.

Proof? Well in is well documented concerning the origin and evolution of the Hebrew language The Hebrew language simply did not exist before 600 BC
Let me illustrate, the secular claim was thst the bible account of the Hittittes was false...until they bloody found archeological evidence proven they really existed. Prior to that find, the only account of the Hittites was in the bible!;
PRevious archaeological and historical research DID NOT consider them fake. They were considered undocumented until archaeological evidence has been found. This kind old concerning the evidence and research on the Hittites

The individuals historically recorded in the bible timeline are in its genealogy from Adam to Christ are they not? Quite a number of these individuals have been discovered to have really existed through archaeological evidence have they not? (Eg Hezekiah, king David, Herod's temple, and others)

So its quite a valid determination to make thst if we have real evidence thst proves the existence of biblical people and cultures, then the most likely answer is, the bible account is not only true, but accurate.

No it is not a valid determination. and proves nothing. Yes the Bible reflects the culture, and some figures have been documented to be real, but many not.consists of narratives written between It was compiled and edited between ~600 BCE and ~400 AD from different undocumented sources, and obviously it is not accurate. It lack original documents dated to the time the narratives were written and for the most part lacks provenance of authorship. Humanity has been around for over 300,000 years and the earth ~3,5 billion years.
 

Monty

Active Member
What evidence do you have that you developed from monkeys other than Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest or the might is right?
Chimps and humans share a common ancestor, and why we share over 95% of our DNA with Chimps, including the same broken gene for Vitamin C synthesis, and why we can breed with Chimps.

But you have no evidence that Adam existed and first became pregnant at aged 130 years old (Gen 5:1-3).
Nor do you have any evidence that Noah's sister, Naamah, gave birth to Shem, Ham & Japheth at aged 500 years old (Gen 5:32).
 
Last edited:

Monty

Active Member
No one has.
But how do you know that gods exist if you've never heard or seen or felt or smelt one?
The bible, however, says that Abraham had a face to face conversation with a god and shared a meal together (Gen 18).
 
Last edited:

Monty

Active Member
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise and the harim were covered.
No punctuation nor semi-colons in Biblical Hebrew.
IOW the Orthodox Jewish Bible says the flood was only 15 cubits high and the harem were covered.
Actually there was never a Noah flood, because it is mythology.
That doesn't change the fact that the story in the OJB & KJV & YLT clearly says that the flood was only 15 cubits high, even if the story is just a myth.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Because Australia is still moving northwards at the rate of ~70 mm per year after it split from Antarctica over 50 million years ago, and why we have to recalibrate our satellite-navigation systems, and why the Himalayas are still moving upward after the Indo-Australian plate collided with the Eurasian Plate about 40 million years ago, and why there are marine fossils on Mt Everest which are millions of years old.
It is amazing how anyone can believe that.
...they evolved in isolation on Australia after it split from Antartica over 50 million years ago.
No good reason to believe that. And to paraphrase you, unless you have actually seen that, you have no evidence that it is really true. :D
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
IOW the Orthodox Jewish Bible says the flood was only 15 cubits high and the harem were covered.

That doesn't change the fact that the story in the OJB & KJV & YLT clearly says that the flood was only 15 cubits high, even if the story is just a myth.

Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise and the harim were covered.
No punctuation nor semi-colons in Biblical Hebrew.

Being a myth is just a fact of history. Those that compiled the Pentateuch believed in a world flood with all the mountains covered and all life on earth perished except those on the Ark'

I cited the Orthodox and Reformed Rabbis, and all believe it was recorded as a world flood and ALL the mountains were covered. You have cited no references to support your assertions.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
But how do you know that gods exist if you've never heard or seen or felt or smelt one?

No one knows.
The bible, however, says that Abraham had a face to face conversation with a god and shared a meal together (Gen 18).
The text of the ancient scripture makes many claims, and they are not necessarily true. Individuals have made claims to talk to Gods of many sorts throughout history from many diverse and conflicting beliefs, There is no evidence Abraham ever existed.
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It is amazing how anyone can believe that.
Those who are educated and believe in factual science do support the sciences. Unfortunately many like you prefer intentional ignorance and clinging to ancient tribal myths without science.
No good reason to believe that. And to paraphrase you, unless you have actually seen that, you have no evidence that it is really true. :D
Science. Your problem see above. Smiley faces do not help your irrational perspective.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What evidence do you have that you developed from monkeys other than Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest or the might is right?

The sciences of evolution do not propose anything remotely above based on your intentional ignorance and misrepresentation of science.
If nature selected the best, why did the primitive plants and animals survive and why did monkeys survive? And why didn’t nature change them to something more superior?
Again more nonsense based on the intentional ignorance of science.
Why don’t you see those who are not the best attacking those that are the best to wipe them out just as the lion ravages or preys on the human and poisonous animals like scorpions and snakes sting humans and more superior animals, thereby killing them. Germs attack humans which are more superior!.
The ancient tribes of Judaism, Christianity do their best to wipe out those who believe differently in holy turf wars for millennia. The animals do it for food to survive.
Why don’t more superior things relapse to something lower as mankind becomes weak then dies, turning into soil. Similarly, in plants and animals.
Evolution, those more adapted to the changing environment in the history of the earth. Those that fail to adapt to a changing world perish.
Why are extinct animals found in excavations which are from highest ranks of animals in terms of size of corpse and perfection?
The fossils in the rock formations in the highest peaks were up lifted by continental drift over millions of years. The processes of up lift and ocean floor spreading zones are occurring today and can be measured objectively that result in the mountain ranges and volcanoes of the world, The fossils are of animals and plants from limestone, shale and sandstone formed in ocean, shallow seas, beaches and swamps like is what happens today. There is no evidence of world flood debri in any of these formations. The formations with the fossils actually extend under the mountains containing the same fossils. What we see is fossils weathering out of the rocks at the surface over the erosion of millions of years.


What is nature which ‘selects’? If it was sense and awareness, what is it? If it doesn’t have sense and awareness how does it select? Don’t you think, if someone said ‘This metal selected that brick as a friend for it’ that would give rise to laughter and mockery? How then is it possible for such selection to be associated to (supposed) nature which becomes more superior than God's laws on the planet?
Your anthropomorphising nature. The origin and evolution of life is based on ideal environments for life, and natural laws and processes. Evolution is the result of changing environments as we see today over billions of years.
Evolution-the definition: is that which attains in many types of animals, for we see that mankind when born in a cold climate they turn white, similarly with animals, so one category of animal can have a particular climate and a specific form and specific habits, as is the case with plants. When that occurs we do not find a difference between temporary and permanent evolution (with difference of colour, size, habits of an animal) and plants and animals or animals and humans.
We can observe evolution of life in the changing evolving diversity of life today in response to changing encvironments. There is no such thing as temporary and permanent changes in evolution of life. Chang is change over time in response to changing environments,
There are two issues here:

1) That one animal and one plant or one human can differ a little with the difference in the environment and climate, along with intervention of all individuals in one category, as if it were a human but this is black and that is red and that yellow. Or that all individuals are a bear but all polar bears have specific characteristics and bears of hot countries have other characteristics. Or that all individuals are wheat and Iraqi wheat has its own characteristics and Australian wheat has its own characteristics.
The above is poorly worded, but yes the diversity of characteristics between and among species is a result of adaptation and evolution to changing environments.
2) That one thing can substantially differ simply due to the environment as though this can be a monkey and that a human and that a plant, with all of them coming from one root. This is like saying that from the same mud you can make a bricks and ceramics but that you can also make iron, ivory and water.

No it is not. Your view neglects the reality of change and evolution over millions and billions of years in response to changing environments over time as the objective verifiable evidence has demonstrated by what we see today and geologic history,

Actually all these questions and more can be answered by simply educating yourself in the basic level of science without a biased agenda against science.
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise and the harim were covered.
No punctuation nor semi-colons in Biblical Hebrew.

Being a myth is just a fact of history. Those that compiled the Pentateuch believed in a world flood with all the mountains covered and all life on earth perished except those on the Ark'

I cited the Orthodox and Reformed Rabbis, and all believe it was recorded as a world flood and ALL the mountains were covered. You have cited no references to support your assertions.
Part of your claim apparently is partly based on the physical impossibility of Noah's flood covering ALL the mountains in a world flood and argue for a small local flood which is physically possible This is true based on what we know today. The ancient worldview of these that compiled the Pentateuch did know of the science and the physical nature of our world and believed literally what the wrote the world flood covered ALL the mountains based on their limited knowledge culture and traditions. They did not know Mt. Everest existed.

Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise and the harim were covered.
No punctuation nor semi-colons in Biblical Hebrew.
 

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
No not only in stone, on papyrus, and clay tablets found in Canaanite libraries and in the archaeological sites Sinai peninsula.

Proof? Well in is well documented concerning the origin and evolution of the Hebrew language The Hebrew language simply did not exist before 600 BC

PRevious archaeological and historical research DID NOT consider them fake. They were considered undocumented until archaeological evidence has been found. This kind old concerning the evidence and research on the Hittites



No it is not a valid determination. and proves nothing. Yes the Bible reflects the culture, and some figures have been documented to be real, but many not.consists of narratives written between It was compiled and edited between ~600 BCE and ~400 AD from different undocumented sources, and obviously it is not accurate. It lack original documents dated to the time the narratives were written and for the most part lacks provenance of authorship. Humanity has been around for over 300,000 years and the earth ~3,5 billion years.

I dont know why you keep coming up with this bull****. you come up with rot and twist it in order to make it appear that something is fact when it is not.

The Silver Scrolls (dated 600 b.c) are merely the oldest SURVIVING texts currently from the Hebrew Bible. That does not tell us the bible is only dated to 600 B.C. We have other evidence its much older than that date!

No one has made the claim that the original world wide language was Hebrew btw. How could it have been...the Hebrew nation didnt exist at the time of Abrahams calling. The bible clearly tells us Abraham was called by God out of Ur of the Chaldees to become a great nation.

As i said, just because their exists a known document of 600 B.C only means thats the oldest document we have...it does not attest to the age of the people and culture...it is clear they had language of their own long before that time. This does not support any claim that the jews came out of the Canaanites!

Jewish Languages

Jewish languages are the various languages and dialects that developed in Jewish communities in the diaspora. The original Jewish language is Hebrew, supplanted as the primary vernacular by Aramaic following the Babylonian exile. Jewish languages feature a syncretism of Hebrew and Judeo-Aramaic with the languages of the local non-Jewish population.

Early Northwest Semitic (ENWS) materials are attested through the end of the Bronze Age—2350 to 1200 BCE.

Khirbet Qeiyafa (Arabic: خربة قيافة), also known as Elah Fortress and in Hebrew as Horbat Qayafa (Hebrew: חורבת קייאפה), is the site of an ancient fortress city overlooking the Elah Valley and dated to the first half of the 10th century BCE.[1][2] The ruins of the fortress were uncovered in 2007,



BTW, if Nebuchadnezzar took them into captivity in 457 B.C, do you think these were essentially cave men he took prisoner? They had wealth and a way of life that was clearly a lot more than 143 years old when taken into captivity...otherwise why the heck would one of the richest kingdoms of the day even bother?



Hititties...

The Hittites are mentioned more than forty times in the Bible. Twice we are told that Heth, their father, was a son of Canaan, one of the four sons of Ham. From the picture the Genesis narrative presents, at least one tribe of the Hittites was established in the land of Canaan in the time of Abraham, and this patriarch bought a property from them near Hebron. Later, one of Isaac's sons, Esau, married Hittite wives. When Israel went up to conquer the Promised Land, the Hittites were among the peoples that the Lord promised to drive out. The language of some passages would seem to give to the Hittites more importance than is given the other Canaanitish populations, and to make them a great power.

Even if the Hittites seem to have taken an important part in the confederation that opposed Joshua, which suffered a tremendous blow at Hazor, they do not seem to have been entirely destroyed, as the Hittites are frequently mentioned in the subsequent history of Israel. We.find that David had Hittite soldiers in his army, before and after his accession to the throne. Under Solomon, the remains of the Hittites and other Canaanites were finally subjected to tribute or bond service. But we are also told that Solomon and his company of merchants carried on an immense trade with "the kings of the Hittites" and "the kings of Syria," especially in horses from -Egypt.

In spite of all that the Bible has to say about the Hittites, "scarcely a generation ago, . . • many scholars claimed that the Hittites were but a mythical race of people. . .. We are told that Abraham bought the cave of Machpelah from a Hittite, that Esau took Hittite women. . . . In spite of these and a score of other references to the Hittites, the scholars continued to assert that if such a people ever existed, they were merely a small tribe of Palestine occupying but a village or two."—"The Bible and the Spade," Edgar J. Banks, p. 97.


Finally, your last statement "humanity has been around for 300,000 years..."

Show me a written document dating humanity to 300,000 years old, please?

What you actually have is fossilized human remains from Morocco that secular scientists claim are 300,000 years old. They do not actually have proof that these bones are 300,000 years old...its merely a theory of age using the same theorectical timeline that tell us the rest of the evolutionary story. That is not proof of anything any more than your statement against the hebrews is. You claim there is no written proof beyond 600 bc and then you claim 300,000 years for mankind without any written evidence! And whats more, the fossils found in Morocco appear to have "modern faces" and, "the Moroccan site is in northwest Africa, far from the sites in East and South Africa that have yielded many of Africa’s other hominin fossils." ("These Early Humans Lived 300,000 Years Ago—But Had Modern Faces" National Geographic Magazine June 8 2017)

It is very clear from the Morocon find that these individuals lived either much earlier or at least at the same time as the Ethiopian discoveries dated 195k. We also find artefacts such as tools and this clearly tells us these people were intelligent enough to manufacture tools to use for tasks in excess of the 300-350l evolutionary timeline...so there is a big problem with that date clearly...its 105k older than the Ethiopian site!

And finally, they dated this site using radioative dating methods...that in and of itself is proven highly unreliable and only works under the standard of universalism...which the bible flood debuts as untrue (given much of the bible history is shown to be true, we have no reason to doubt the rest of it other than nonchristians claim its false via a secular theory from sources corrupted by Satan and sin. What we see around us is a result of the influence of sin...God has never claimed this world as we know it today to be the perfect creation he made...it is but a shadow of that creation and lies in ruin. The whole idea of the biblical plan of redemption is to restore not only humanity, but also the rest of the world.

You cant reconcile the DArwinian timeline of modern humans with ancient Neanderthals and find that they actually date the opposite way around (ie the modern is older). This suggests they co-existed and that is the point...it also agrees with the biblical record far better than the Darwinian one!

What i find really interesting about the find in Khirbet Qelyafa is that they found Carbon 14 at the site and have dated it to 1050-970 B.C using that method. This tells us its not actually very old at all and this supports the bible timeline very accurately back to at least that date. That is evidence for biblical historical accuracy.

Note the findings are that...

Archeologists, Yosef Garfinkel, Mitka R. Golub, Haggai Misgav, and Saar Ganor rejected in 2019 the possibility that Khirbet Qeiyafa could be associated with the Philistines. They wrote: "The idea that in this chronological phase the knowledge of writing should be associated with the Philistine city state of Gath can now be rejected.
In 2010, Gershon Galil of the University of Haifa identified Khirbet Qeiyafa as the "Neta'im" of 1 Chronicles 4:23, due to its proximity to Khirbet Ğudrayathe (biblical Gederah). The inhabitants of both cities were said to be "potters" and "in the King's service", a description that is consistent with the archeological discoveries at that site.



Now the really interesting thing about the Shephelah surveys is that they appear to have had a colonised population of some 50-100k individuals...and i must ask, given Jewish history states Abraham was their founding father, how long would it take 1 man and his immediately family to become a population of that size?

It appears to me that you lack intellectual acuity in not seeing the contradiction in your Darwinian view on this subject. The evidence is actually a lot more consistent with the biblical narrative.

BTW it seems that your real intent here is an attempt at knocking off the law of Moses in the biblical narrative. That wont work using this method amigo...time you barked up a different tree as the Silver Scrolls containing reference to that law obviously come from a time much earlier...as supported by the biblical narrative of Moses writings and the affirmation of the law as given at mount Sinai.
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I dont know why you keep coming up with this bull****. you come up with rot and twist it in order to make it appear that something is fact when it is not.

The Silver Scrolls (dated 600 b.c) are merely the oldest SURVIVING texts currently from the Hebrew Bible. That does not tell us the bible is only dated to 600 B.C. We have other evidence its much older than that date!

Absolutely no Hebrew writing before ~600 BCE. There are scraps of Proto Canaanite writing found across the the Levant and the Sinai, before 600 BCE that femonstrate where the Hebrew language evolved from.
No one has made the claim that the original world wide language was Hebrew btw. How could it have been...the Hebrew nation didnt exist at the time of Abrahams calling. The bible clearly tells us Abraham was called by God out of Ur of the Chaldees to become a great nation.
What the Bible tells you is based on your belief in the Bible not the evidence. Your selective evidence simply justifies it was compiled in the context of known history after 600 BCE and the knowledge of those that returned from exhile
As i said, just because their exists a known document of 600 B.C only means that's the oldest document we have...it does not attest to the age of the people and culture...it is clear they had language of their own long before that time. This does not support any claim that the jews came out of the Canaanites!
No there is no evidence for a written language before 600 BCE. The archaeological evidence documents that the Hebrew tribes were culturally a pastoral people with a Canaanite culture and Gods. The kingdoms slowly developed after about 1000 BCE as the Egyptians retreated from the Levant.
Jewish Languages

Jewish languages are the various languages and dialects that developed in Jewish communities in the diaspora. The original Jewish language is Hebrew, supplanted as the primary vernacular by Aramaic following the Babylonian exile. Jewish languages feature a syncretism of Hebrew and Judeo-Aramaic with the languages of the local non-Jewish population.

Early Northwest Semitic (ENWS) materials are attested through the end of the Bronze Age—2350 to 1200 BCE.

Khirbet Qeiyafa (Arabic: خربة قيافة), also known as Elah Fortress and in Hebrew as Horbat Qayafa (Hebrew: חורבת קייאפה), is the site of an ancient fortress city overlooking the Elah Valley and dated to the first half of the 10th century BCE.[1][2] The ruins of the fortress were uncovered in 2007,

A;; the Canaanite, Ugarit, Phoenician peoples were Semitic tribes of the Levant region.

The archaeological site is controversial as to whether it was Canaanite/Ugaite or Hebrew. The only scraps of writing found are Proto-Canaanite.
BTW, if Nebuchadnezzar took them into captivity in 457 B.C, do you think these were essentially cave men he took prisoner?

after 600 BCE Israel became two small Kingdoms with a written language and an army. The Hebrew Kingdoms slowly gained in power between about 1000 -600 BCE as the Egyptians retreated from Canaan.
They had wealth and a way of life that was clearly a lot more than 143 years old when taken into captivity...otherwise why the heck would one of the richest kingdoms of the day even bother?
Yes after 600 BCE. They slowly grew into two kingdoms as the Egyptians retreated from the Canaan region.
Hititties...

The Hittites are mentioned more than forty times in the Bible. Twice we are told that Heth, their father, was a son of Canaan, one of the four sons of Ham. From the picture the Genesis narrative presents, at least one tribe of the Hittites was established in the land of Canaan in the time of Abraham, and this patriarch bought a property from them near Hebron. Later, one of Isaac's sons, Esau, married Hittite wives. When Israel went up to conquer the Promised Land, the Hittites were among the peoples that the Lord promised to drive out. The language of some passages would seem to give to the Hittites more importance than is given the other Canaanitish populations, and to make them a great power.

In spite of all that the Bible has to say about the Hittites, "scarcely a generation ago, . . • many scholars claimed that the Hittites were but a mythical race of people. . .. We are told that Abraham bought the cave of Machpelah from a Hittite, that Esau took Hittite women. . . . In spite of these and a score of other references to the Hittites, the scholars continued to assert that if such a people ever existed, they were merely a small tribe of Palestine occupying but a village or two."—"The Bible and the Spade," Edgar J. Banks, p. 97.

Please cite the many scholars that believed this. Yes as more archaeological evidence becomes available, our knowledge of the LEvant changes. This does not change the overwhelming evidence that the only languages found all over the Levant and the Sinai were versions of Proto-Canaanite, and absolutely no evidence of the Hebrew language,
Finally, your last statement "humanity has been around for 300,000 years..."

Show me a written document dating humanity to 300,000 years old, please?
What you actually have is fossilized human remains from Morocco that secular scientists claim are 300,000 years old. They do not actually have proof that these bones are 300,000 years old...its merely a theory of age using the same theorectical timeline that tell us the rest of the evolutionary story. That is not proof of anything any more than your statement against the hebrews is. You claim there is no written proof beyond 600 bc and then you claim 300,000 years for mankind without any written evidence! And whats more, the fossils found in Morocco appear to have "modern faces" and, "the Moroccan site is in northwest Africa, far from the sites in East and South Africa that have yielded many of Africa’s other hominin fossils." ("These Early Humans Lived 300,000 Years Ago—But Had Modern Faces" National Geographic Magazine June 8. 2017)
It is very clear from the Morocon find that these individuals lived either much earlier or at least at the same time as the Ethiopian discoveries dated 195k. We also find artefacts such as tools and this clearly tells us these people were intelligent enough to manufacture tools to use for tasks in excess of the 300-350l evolutionary timeline...so there is a big problem with that date clearly...its 105k older than the Ethiopian site!

And finally, they dated this site using radioative dating methods...that in and of itself is proven highly unreliable and only works under the standard of universalism...which the bible flood debuts as untrue (given much of the bible history is shown to be true, we have no reason to doubt the rest of it other than nonchristians claim its false via a secular theory from sources corrupted by Satan and sin. What we see around us is a result of the influence of sin...God has never claimed this world as we know it today to be the perfect creation he made...it is but a shadow of that creation and lies in ruin. The whole idea of the biblical plan of redemption is to restore not only humanity, but also the rest of the world.

You cant reconcile the Darwinian timeline of modern humans with ancient Neanderthals and find that they actually date the opposite way around (ie the modern is older). This suggests they co-existed and that is the point...it also agrees with the biblical record far better than the Darwinian one!
No legitimate scientific sources provided for the intentional ignorant rant above. There are far more sites than Morocco that date humans existed over the past 300,000 years. No problem dating different sites unless you are intentionally ignorant of science with fundamentalist Creationist agenda.
What i find really interesting about the find in Khirbet Qelyafa is that they found Carbon 14 at the site and have dated it to 1050-970 B.C using that method. This tells us its not actually very old at all and this supports the bible timeline very accurately back to at least that date. That is evidence for biblical historical accuracy.
Note the findings are that...

Now the really interesting thing about the Shephelah surveys is that they appear to have had a colonised population of some 50-100k individuals...and i must ask, given Jewish history states Abraham was their founding father, how long would it take 1 man and his immediately family to become a population of that size?

It appears to me that you lack intellectual acuity in not seeing the contradiction in your Darwinian view on this subject. The evidence is actually a lot more consistent with the biblical narrative.
What educational background do you have in the sciences related to evolution other than a literal Creationist Biblical agenda, It is apparent your little or no knowledge of science to make this judgement
BTW it seems that your real intent here is an attempt at knocking off the law of Moses in the biblical narrative. That wont work using this method amigo...time you barked up a different tree as the Silver Scrolls containing reference to that law obviously come from a time much earlier...as supported by the biblical narrative of Moses writings and the affirmation of the law as given at mount Sinai.

There is absolutely no evidence of Hebrew writing before 600 BCE.

It is not the Law of Moses that is the problem it is the story of Exodus and the existence of Moses as a real person at the time itself that does not have any significant evidence to support the narrative dated after 600 BCE. No writings exist before this.

Your selective and dishonest use of sources to justify your fundamentalist agenda is sufficient to consider your argument unreliable.
 
Last edited:

AdamjEdgar

Active Member
Part of your claim apparently is partly based on the physical impossibility of Noah's flood covering ALL the mountains in a world flood and argue for a small local flood which is physically possible This is true based on what we know today. The ancient worldview of these that compiled the Pentateuch did know of the science and the physical nature of our world and believed literally what the wrote the world flood covered ALL the mountains based on their limited knowledge culture and traditions. They did not know Mt. Everest existed.
a normal reading of the biblical account of the flood doesnt support the idea that it was a local flood. It one is to read language in a normal way (considering the use of and way in which one interprets written language is largely universal), so when we read the following verses:



3and seven pairs of every kind of bird of the air, male and female, to preserve their offspring on the face of all the earth. 4For seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living thing I have made.”​
6Now Noah was 600 years old when the floodwaters came upon the earth.
13In Noah’s six hundred and first year, on the first day of the first month, the waters had dried up from the earth. So Noah removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry. 14By the twenty-seventh day of the second month, the earth was fully dry.​
17For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and the waters rose and lifted the ark high above the earth. 18So the waters continued to surge and rise greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19Finally, the waters completely inundated the earth, so that all the high mountains under all the heavens were covered.
21When the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, He said in His heart, “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from his youth. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done.​
Christ made a direct reference to the extent of the desctruction of the flood when talking of His own second coming. Note what Christ says in the Gospels...​
Readiness at Any Hour
(Genesis 6:1–7; Mark 13:32–37; Luke 12:35–48)​
36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,g but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.​
Despite any of your unreferenced drivel, what you in fact are ignoring is the consistency across its pages of the Biblical narrative concerning the flood. Moses is not the only writer who records the flood. We have the same event recorded in the gospels, it is referenced by the prophet Daniel in the dream of chapter 9: 26, the apostle Peter even references it in 2 Pet 2:5:​
5. And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood.​
It is plainly obvious that the flood was universally agreed to have been a worldwide event by most ancient writers. I often hear the claim that Noahs flood at best was/is a modern Christian tradition. In my view, another problem with such a claim is that, given that NImrod (who is not believed to have been of faith) attempted to build a city that reached high enough into the heavens to avoid such destruction. The point is not whether or not such a stupid endeavor could have achieved such an outcome, or that the flood must have been a localized one, but rather, God saw the futility of it given the actual extent of Noah's flood and ended the entire project by confusing language thus scattering people, and destroying the top of the tower.​
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
a normal reading of the biblical account of the flood doesnt support the idea that it was a local flood. It one is to read language in a normal way (considering the use of and way in which one interprets written language is largely universal), so when we read the following verses:



3and seven pairs of every kind of bird of the air, male and female, to preserve their offspring on the face of all the earth. 4For seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living thing I have made.”​
6Now Noah was 600 years old when the floodwaters came upon the earth.
13In Noah’s six hundred and first year, on the first day of the first month, the waters had dried up from the earth. So Noah removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry. 14By the twenty-seventh day of the second month, the earth was fully dry.​
17For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and the waters rose and lifted the ark high above the earth. 18So the waters continued to surge and rise greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the waters. 19Finally, the waters completely inundated the earth, so that all the high mountains under all the heavens were covered.
21When the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, He said in His heart, “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from his youth. And never again will I destroy all living creatures as I have done.​
Christ made a direct reference to the extent of the desctruction of the flood when talking of His own second coming. Note what Christ says in the Gospels...​
Readiness at Any Hour
36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,g but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.​
Despite any of your unreferenced drivel, what you in fact are ignoring is the consistency across its pages of the Biblical narrative concerning the flood. Moses is not the only writer who records the flood. We have the same event recorded in the gospels, it is referenced by the prophet Daniel in the dream of chapter 9: 26, the apostle Peter even references it in 2 Pet 2:5:​
5. And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood.​
It is plainly obvious that the flood was universally agreed to have been a worldwide event by most ancient writers. I often hear the claim that Noahs flood at best was/is a modern Christian tradition. In my view, another problem with such a claim is that, given that NImrod (who is not believed to have been of faith) attempted to build a city that reached high enough into the heavens to avoid such destruction. The point is not whether or not such a stupid endeavor could have achieved such an outcome, or that the flood must have been a localized one, but rather, God saw the futility of it given the actual extent of Noah's flood and ended the entire project by confusing language thus scattering people, and destroying the top of the tower.​

Agreed. Good post. I made a minor correction of my post..
 
Top