The Problem of Foreknowledge

[Skwim]

It is at the quantum level that matter does not act within the rules of reality as we know it which is why we are still trying to find the unified theory that can add some logic to the way things act at that level.

Matter doesn't exist at the quantum level.

I consider these separate systems that have interaction with each other.

How does matter interact with quanta?

A god could be independent of our reality while still being subject to his own like the programmer analogy.

How does this relate to variables interacting in our "system"?

 

[Nakosis]

Well thought out answers, thank you. The compatibilist theories always paint interesting pictures.

While they could still be wrong, the compatibilist seems to have the soundest reasoning.

 

[Skwim]

While they could still be wrong, the compatibilist seems to have the soundest reasoning.

Because I've never seen a compatablist argument that didn't require a re-definition of free will, to me they've always been fruitless mental exercises.

 

[idav]

Matter doesn't exist at the quantum level.

What makes you say that?

How does matter interact with quanta?

Well that is what quantum mechanics attempts to explain.

How does this relate to variables interacting in our "system"?

Interaction is through some sort of peripheral that allows the system to get outside input.

 

[atanu]

The arguments are more about the nature of the two things, knowledge and prediction. Knowledge has inherent truth, prediction (however inductive it may be) has inherent uncertainty. Actuality is where the inherent truth resides. What is actual can be known, the future cannot. Statements about the future are prediction.

We can superimpose "god" on a possible time-'line' and see every moment of it, everywhen, as "now" or "actual", and conclude foreknowledge. That is an image that slaves everything to time*. The alternative picture slaves everything to actuality. Time would take on a new image: I imagine it like a plane or surface (now) stretching out, below which all previously actualized events (the past) shift and move, and above which (the future) is nothing that has been actualized yet.

Needless to say, I find the counter-argument appealing.


*Even "god".

Hi Willamena

I agree. Earlier i had used an example. Probably, it is like knowledge of a man sitting in a boat which is hurtling towards a fatal fall and knowledge of another man in the sky having the full view of the situation within a single instance.

Again, however, the above is an example and approximate. Scriptures say that the omniscience is not within the ambit of word and mind. Word and Mind return therefrom.

 

[Skwim]

What makes you say that?

Matter includes atoms and other particles that have mass, such as molecules. The four forms of matter are solid, liquid, gas and plasma. The atoms making up these four forms consist of subatomic particles, none of which are considered to be matter. And it is at this level, the subatomic, that quantum mechanics comes into play. Employing mathematics, it looks at the changes in subatomic particles, changes that take place only by discrete amounts, or quanta. As such, quantum mechanics has no concern with constructs above the subatomic level, that at which matter forms.

Well that is what quantum mechanics attempts to explain.

QM seeks to understand the behaviors of subatomic particles.

Interaction is through some sort of peripheral that allows the system to get outside input.

So what are some of these variables that are controlled by the quantized behavior of subatomic particles?

 

[idav]

So what are some of these variables that are controlled by the quantized behavior of subatomic particles?

In order for me know I need to know where the something that is here comes from. I don't know if it comes from nothing but depending on the answer a pantheisitc or panentheistic approach could be the way to interact within the system while being outside of it. Just opinion at this point.

 

[OMEGA777]

The problem of God's foreknowledge vs. Man's free will was dealt with by past philosophers by specifying the distinction between knowledge and prediction in regards to truth, and holding that foreknowledge, even God's, is prediction.

Where the heck does it say anything like that in the bible ???

God does not have foreknowledge.

The only thing it talks about is Predestination which means that God PRE Destined a group of people to be the Elect
as long as they stick to it and don't Rebel and go back to the world like the Church that Enoch started and ended with NOAH.

 

[Nakosis]

The problem of God's foreknowledge vs. Man's free will was dealt with by past philosophers by specifying the distinction between knowledge and prediction in regards to truth, and holding that foreknowledge, even God's, is prediction.

Where the heck does it say anything like that in the bible ???

God does not have foreknowledge.

The only thing it talks about is Predestination which means that God PRE Destined a group of people to be the Elect
as long as they stick to it and don't Rebel and go back to the world like the Church that Enoch started and ended with NOAH.

If God predestines something to occur don't you think he'd have foreknowledge of it occurring?

 

[Skwim]

The problem of God's foreknowledge vs. Man's free will was dealt with by past philosophers by specifying the distinction between knowledge and prediction in regards to truth, and holding that foreknowledge, even God's, is prediction.

Where the heck does it say anything like that in the bible ???

God does not have foreknowledge.

I believe it is concluded from the following examples.

Romans 11:2 (NASB)
"God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?"

Romans 8:29
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren." (NASB)

Acts 2:23
"this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of [a]godless men and put Him to death.

1 Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared [a]in these last times for the sake of you

Judith 9:6
"Yea what things Thou didst determine were ready at hand, and said, Lo we are here: for all Thy ways are prepared, and Thy judgments are in Thy foreknowledge."
​

 

[9Westy9]

(a.k.a. Beating a Dead Horse)

The problem of God's foreknowledge vs. Man's free will was dealt with by past philosophers by specifying the distinction between knowledge and prediction in regards to truth, and holding that foreknowledge, even God's, is prediction.


Do you agree with this assessment? Why or why not?

I agree with the assessment (I think ). Although I don't see why foreknowledge isn't possible. If a god exists he may very well know everything that will happen.

 

[shawn001]

I believe it is concluded from the following examples.

Romans 11:2 (NASB)
"God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?"

Romans 8:29
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren." (NASB)

Acts 2:23
"this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of [a]godless men and put Him to death.

1 Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared [a]in these last times for the sake of you

Judith 9:6
"Yea what things Thou didst determine were ready at hand, and said, Lo we are here: for all Thy ways are prepared, and Thy judgments are in Thy foreknowledge."
​

Why that god Skwim?

Then you have the Heisenberg uncertainty principle

"Published by Werner Heisenberg in 1927, the uncertainty principle was a key discovery in the early development of quantum theory. It implies that it is impossible to simultaneously measure the present position while also determining the future motion of a particle, or of any system small enough to require quantum mechanical treatment"

Uncertainty principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Skwim]

Why that god Skwim?

Because OMEGA777 specifically asked about the Bible, and I believe that's the god most commonly referred to in these forums.

Then you have the Heisenberg uncertainty principle

"Published by Werner Heisenberg in 1927, the uncertainty principle was a key discovery in the early development of quantum theory. It implies that it is impossible to simultaneously measure the present position while also determining the future motion of a particle, or of any system small enough to require quantum mechanical treatment"

Uncertainty principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes we do, but so what?

 

[OMEGA777]

Eze 12:25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass;
it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD.

Nakosis and Skwim said,

If God predestines something to occur don't you think he'd have foreknowledge of it occurring?

ANSWER : NO , because God says that HE brings it to pass. He makes it happen.

When God "SPEAKS" , WHO do you think that HE is talking to besides mankind.

God COMMANDS His MILLIONS OF ANGELS to do the things that make it come to pass.

Mt 26:53 ... my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

--How many is a Legion = 6000 Armed Men.

= 6000 X 12 = 72,000 Angels

MORE than 72,000 angels.

-- Isaiah 37:36 --a single Angel killed 185,000 men in one night.

1 legion of angels can kill 6000 X 185000 = 1,110,000,000 men

12 legion of angels can kill 12 X 6000 X 185000 = 1,110,000,000 X 12 = 13,320,000,000 = 13 Billion men

With that power, God can bring anything to pass over the 6000 years that mankind has been on the Earth.

And since, Angels can influence people's Thoughts, that is enough Mind Control that God can raise up Kingdoms and put them down.

Da 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
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Jer 1:12 Then said the LORD unto me, I will hasten my word to perform it.
Jer 33:14 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which
I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
Isa 48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them;
I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Eze 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back,
Eze 36:36 I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate:
I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Ps 89:29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people:
Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
Eze 35:14 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When the whole earth rejoiceth, I will make thee desolate.
Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: I will bring evil upon this people, the fruit of their thoughts,
Jer 1:12 Then said the LORD, for I will hasten my word to perform it.
Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them,
to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days,
saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Ki 19:28 therefore I will put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips,
and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth,
and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Jer 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold,
I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:
Ps 77:14 Thou art the God that doest wonders:
=============================================================================================
Judith 9:6
"Yea what things Thou didst determine were ready at hand, and said, Lo we are here: for all Thy ways are prepared, and Thy judgments are in Thy foreknowledge."

__________________

 

[muhammad_isa]

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Yes .. God is Great!
Whomsoever He guides, nobody can mislead..
..and whomsoever He sends astray, nobody can guide

 

[Falvlun]

It really doesn't make any difference if god really sees you do X rather than Y, His knowledge is nothing but a confirmation that X, and not Y, will happen. That when you get to the point of deciding between X and Y, you will not choose Y. It's a forgone event: X will happen. This brings us to why X and not Y, which comes down to determinism: You were caused to do X and not Y by the preceding events that came to bear on the situation. For Y to happen these preceding events would have had to be different, but the weren't, hence X had to take place.

God only saw X happen because you chose to do X. If you had chose to do Y, God would have seen you do Y.

You can't choose to do something differently after you have already done it. This does not pose a problem to free-will. And yet this is precisely the opportunity people are asking for when they claim that because God knows what they chose, they were "constrained" to make that choice. They weren't constrained to make that choice because God knows what they will do-- they are "constrained" because that is what they chose to do. You don't get to make choices twice.

 

[Skwim]

God only saw X happen because you chose to do X. If you had chose to do Y, God would have seen you do Y.

You can't choose to do something differently after you have already done it.

Yup.

This does not pose a problem to free-will.

Consider: In 1936 god sees you doing X at 8:17 PM on January 18, 2012. 8:15 PM on January 18, 2012 rolls around and in two minutes you have two "options": doing X or doing Y. Which will you do? Why? Could you have really chosen to do Y?

And yet this is precisely the opportunity people are asking for when they claim that because God knows what they chose, they were "constrained" to make that choice.

The opportunity to do Y is nonexistent. The sequence of causes/effects leading up to the 8:17 PM moment can only result in doing X. For Y to happen the causes/effects sequence would necessarily have to be different. But it wasn't, so there is no way Y could happen.

They weren't constrained to make that choice because God knows what they will do-- they are "constrained" because that is what they chose to do.

in the sense that both X and Y have an equal chance of occurring there is no true choice, Y was never in the running.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yup.

Consider: In 1936 god sees you doing X at 8:17 PM on January 18, 2012. 8:15 PM on January 18, 2012 rolls around and in two minutes you have two "options": doing X or doing Y. Which will you do? Why? Could you have really chosen to do Y?

Of course .. it's your choice..

You say "in 1936 god sees you doing X" ..
..well, what do you mean by that? God doesn't perceive time as we do .. we perceive 'time' as absolute .. a flow between past & future.
Einstein has already shown why our perception (and physical definition), is only "part of the story"
Our definition is based on this physical universe which God created
ie. God is responsible for both space & time .. which is why He is aware of the future and we are not

Although we can't thwart our destiny, it doesn't mean that God forces us to do anything

 

[Skwim]

You say "in 1936 god sees you doing X" ..
..well, what do you mean by that? God doesn't perceive time as we do .. we perceive 'time' as absolute .. a flow between past & future.

Don't know how you know this about god, but the assumption in the ongoing discussion is that god has foreknowledge.

Although we can't thwart our destiny, it doesn't mean that God forces us to do anything

And I never said he did; however, if you ask some Christians around here they'll tell you god has indeed made us (forced us) do things. For one thing, some wold say that god made us into sinful creatures. In effect, he has made us sin.

 

[Pegg]

(a.k.a. Beating a Dead Horse)

The problem of God's foreknowledge vs. Man's free will was dealt with by past philosophers by specifying the distinction between knowledge and prediction in regards to truth, and holding that foreknowledge, even God's, is prediction.


Do you agree with this assessment? Why or why not?

i dont agree with it for the reason that the evidence from the bible shows that God does not use his power of foreknowlege on all creatures in all circumstances.

Yes he does not how a matter will turn out, but the bibles description of this scenario is always with regard to his own purpose and his own will. He only sees into some peoples future if those people will play some role in the outworking of this will and purposes.

for example he could tell Abraham that he would become the forefather of a great nation.... why? Because God chose Abraham for that specific purpose.