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The Problems with the Qur'an

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
You may even make an effort and learn Arabic

( After all, I can come up with really great original ideas sometimes WoW :cool:)
,

Would it really make any difference if se did,there is also the school of thought barrier to negotiate and sects etc ,there are obviously millions of Muslims who read Arabic yet it has'nt helped them and there is disagreement between sects.
 

Sufi

Member
There are also some errors in the Quran IMO. One example I can think of is saying that Jewish regard Uzair/Ezra as son of G-d, among other things.

BTW, it's nice to see your open to opposing viewpoints :)

Xkatz with all due respect but you seem to be unaware of the Quranic exegesis i will provide commentary for you in my reply to your claim(s) in the current day Torah the Jews are referred to as ''sons'' of God'' ''Children of God'' even certain prophet's are also given that title ''son of God'' now we Muslims abhor such passage's even if they are meant in a metaphorical sense but this clearly shows that Jews do believe either in a literal of figurative sense in a ''son of God/children of God'' concept so you cant deny/reject they ever referred to Ezra as such.

Now to come back to Ezra see what Quranic translator commentator and Jewish convert to Islam Muhammed Asad (Leopold Weiss) has to say regarding Surah 9 verse 30:

9:30 AND THE JEWS say, "Ezra is God's son," while the Christians say, "The Christ is God's son." Such are the sayings
which they utter with their mouths, following in spirit assertions made in earlier times by people who denied the truth!"
[They deserve the imprecation:] "May God destroy them!"

* v.30 : This statement is connected with the preceding verse, which speaks of the erring followers of earlier revelation. The charge of shirk (“the ascribing of divinity [or “divine qualities”] to aught beside God”) is levelled against both the Jews and the Christians in amplification, as it were, of the statement that they “do not follow the religion of truth [which God has enjoined upon them].” As regards the belief attributed to the Jews that Ezra (or, in the Arabicized form of this name ‘Uzayr) was “God’s son,” it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur’ān agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. (According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn ‘Abbās – quoted by Tabarī in his commentary on this verse – some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, “How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our qiblah and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?”) On the other hand, Ezra occupies a unique position in the esteem of all Jews, and has always been praised by them in the most extravagant terms. It was he who restored and codified the Torah after it had been lost during the Babylonian Exile, and “edited” it in more or less the form which it has today, and thus “he promoted the establishment of an exclusive, legalistic type of religion that became dominant in later Judaism” (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1963, vol. IX, p. 15). Ever since then he has been venerated to such a degree that his verdicts on the Law of Moses have come to be regarded by the Talmudists as being practically equivalent to the Law itself: which, in Qur’anic ideology, amounts to the unforgivable sin of shirk, inasmuch as it implies the elevation of a human being to the status of a quasi-divine law-giver and the blasphemous attribution to him – albeit metaphorically – of the quality of “sonship” in relation to God. Cf. in this connection Exodus iv 22-23 (“Israel is My son”) or Jeremiah xxxi 9 (“I am a father to Israel”): expressions to which, because of their idolatrous implications, the Qur’ān takes strong exception.
* My interpolation, between brackets, of the words “they deserve the imprecation” is based on Zamakhsharī’s and Rāzī’s convincing interpretation of this phrase. Originally, the Arabs used the expression “may God destroy him” in the sense of a direct imprecation; but already in pre-Qur’anic Arabic it had assumed the character of an idiomatic device meant to circumscribe anything that is extremely strange or horrifying: and, according to many philologists, “this, rather than its literal meaning, is the purport [of this phrase] here” (Manār X, 399).
* See sūrah 5, note 90.

(Muhammad Asad (Leopold Weiss) Message of the Quran)

Tafsir Ibn Abbas (Classical):

{ وَقَالَتِ ٱلْيَهُودُ عُزَيْرٌ ٱبْنُ ٱللَّهِ وَقَالَتْ ٱلنَّصَارَى ٱلْمَسِيحُ ٱبْنُ ٱللَّهِ ذٰلِكَ قَوْلُهُم بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ يُضَاهِئُونَ قَوْلَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن قَبْلُ قَاتَلَهُمُ ٱللَّهُ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ }


(And the Jews) the Jews of Medina (say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians) the Christians of Najran (say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths) with their tongues. (They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old) before them, i.e. the disbelievers of Mecca who said that al-Lat, al-'Uzza and Manat were His daughters, just as the Jews claimed that Ezra was the son of Allah and some of the Christians claimed that Jesus was the son of Allah, others that he was Allah's partner while there were others who said that he was Allah Himself or one god among three. (Allah (Himself) fights against them) Allah curses them. (How perverse are they!) from where do they get their lies?

Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs -

Altafsir.com - Translations -
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Raise your level of understanding rather than complaining to God about not being able to understand. You must have raised your level of intellect from pre-nursery to grade-1 , or were you born with the intellect to ace through all levels of education like the fiction heros of non-existence entities?

Learning requires knowledge and knowledge requires patience. Atheists lack both.

Bit of a generalisation and a false one i would add
 

Sufi

Member
,

Would it really make any difference if se did,there is also the school of thought barrier to negotiate and sects etc ,there are obviously millions of Muslims who read Arabic yet it has'nt helped them and there is disagreement between sects.

Majority of Muslims adhere to the Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamaah (''Sunni'' Islam),
Schools of Thought (Madhhahib) aren't sects they are Schools of Islamic Jurisprudence and their differences are minor.
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
One of my problems with the Quran (as I read through it AND look around on the web) are the inconsistencies throughout it. I would go as far to say that it is not the Word of God but rather the words of Muhammad.

Plenty of inconsistencies noted here and I don't see this site as a Hate site, correct me if I'm wrong. In any case the inconsistencies are there.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Majority of Muslims adhere to the Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamaah (''Sunni'' Islam),
Schools of Thought (Madhhahib) aren't sects they are Schools of Islamic Jurisprudence and their differences are minor.


Your Prophet once said there will be 73 sects, all will go to hell except JAM'AH so it seem pretty major to me.
 

Sufi

Member
One of my problems with the Quran (as I read through it AND look around on the web) are the inconsistencies throughout it. I would go as far to say that it is not the Word of God but rather the words of Muhammad.

Plenty of inconsistencies noted here and I don't see this site as a Hate site, correct me if I'm wrong. In any case the inconsistencies are there.

Refutation Of The So-Called Contradictions In The Qur'ân
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/

http://www.muslim-responses.com/
 
Control.to.win,

I am more interested in your own Ahmadi sect than the Qur'an...

Tell me, my friend. How is your sect different from the radical wahabi sect, from which Bin Laden sprang?
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
Poking around the site you linked . . . haven't really found any explanations.
Am I missing something?

For instance . . . is it 6 days or 8 days? It can't be both.
Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days.

Refutation Of The So-Called Contradictions In The Qur'ân
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Raise your level of understanding rather than complaining to God about not being able to understand. You must have raised your level of intellect from pre-nursery to grade-1 , or were you born with the intellect to ace through all levels of education like the fiction heros of non-existence entities?

Learning requires knowledge and knowledge requires patience. Atheists lack both.

Engage in bigoted prejudice much?

Not that someone who would issue group-slander like that cares, but did you know that the more educated, as well as the more intelligent you are, the more likely you are to be an atheist?

Actually what I'm saying, which I seem not to have made clear, is that it's really badly written. I see that as a problem with the Quran, not with me. But thanks for the advice.
 

Sufi

Member
Poking around the site you linked . . . haven't really found any explanations.
Am I missing something?

For instance . . . is it 6 days or 8 days? It can't be both.

I dont have the time to navigate through the IslamicAwareness website i will do so later on for now read the following:

Praise be to Allaah.

This is an issue which confuses some people, and some of them think that Allaah created the heavens and the earth in eight days as Allaah says in Soorah Fussilat (interpretation of the meaning):
“Say (O Muhammad): Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days? And you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists).
He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four ‘days’ were equal in the length of time) for all those who ask (about its creation).
Then He rose over (Istawa) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: ‘Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.’ They both said: ‘We come willingly.’
Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him, the All-Mighty, the All-Knower”
[Fussilat 41:9-12]
because this seems to contradict the other verse which says that He created them in six days.
This is a misunderstanding, and the answer to it is as follows:
There is no contradiction between the time period mentioned in these verses and the other verse which says that it was six days.
In these verses – from Soorah Fussilat – we see that Allaah is telling us that He “created the earth in two Days”.
Then He “placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers)” in four days equal– i.e., in two days that were added to the two days in which He created the earth, so the total is four days. It does not say that the creation of the mountains and the measuring of the sustenance took four days.
Perhaps the confusion which is mentioned in the question stems from this, i.e., from thinking that the four days are added to the two days in which the earth was created, equaling six, and then adding the two days in which the heavens were created (“Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days”) – making a total of eight days, not six days. But this confusion can be dispelled by dealing with this mistaken notion. So the earth was created in two days, and the mountains were created and the sustenance measured in two more days which makes a total of four, i.e., this took the other two days. Then the creation of the seven heavens took two days. So the total is six days of the Days of Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted.
The mufassireen commented on this fact which deals with the mistaken notion. Al-Qurtubi said:
“in four days” – this is like someone saying, “I set out from Basra to Baghdad in ten days and to Kufa in fifteen days, i.e., a total time of fifteen days.” (al-Jaami’ li Ahkaam al-Qur’aan, vol. 15, p. 343).
Al-Baghawi said: “in four days” means the creation of what is in the earth. The measuring of the sustenance was on Tuesday and Wednesday, which along with Sunday and Monday add up to four days. This is like saying “I married a woman yesterday and today I married two” – one of whom is the woman whom he married the day before.
Tafseer al-Baghawi, 7/165
Al-Zajjaaj said: “in four days” means two days added to the previous two days.
Al-Kashshaaf, vol. 3, p. 444
These verses – from Soorah Fussilat – confirm the other verse, which says that the creation of the heavens and the earth was completed in six days. So there is no contradiction concerning the period in which Allaah created the heavens and the earth. There cannot be any such contradictions in the Qur’aan..

And Allaah knows best.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/31865
 

Sufi

Member
Control.to.win,

I am more interested in your own Ahmadi sect than the Qur'an...

Tell me, my friend. How is your sect different from the radical wahabi sect, from which Bin Laden sprang?

Ahmadiyyah are a relatively new sect they believe in Prophethood after the Prophet Muhammad (saws) wich takes them out of the fold of Islam.

Wahhabism is a minority sect within Islam they have certain beliefs that contradict and deviate from the vast majority of Muslims (Ahlul Sunnah wal Jamaah/Sunni Muslims) but they are Muslims unlike the Ahmadiyyah who are non Muslims by consensus of both Sunnis & Shiites.
 

Sufi

Member
Question 11 of Section BHeavens and Earth created in six days and not eight days.

The Qur’an mentions in several places that the heavens and the were earth created in 6 days but in Surah Fussilat it says that the heavens and the earth were created in 8 days. Isn’t this a contradiction? The same verse also says that the earth was created in 6 days and then later on the heavens were created in 2 days. This is against the Big-Bang theory that the heavens and the earth were created simultaneously.

1. Heavens and the Earth created in Six days

I do agree that the Qur’an says that the heavens and the earth were created in 6 days i.e. 6 epochs and it is mentioned in

Surah Al A’raf chapter 7 verse 54
Surah Yunus chapter 10 verse 3
Surah Hud chapter 11 verse 7
Surah Al Furqan chapter 25 verse 59
Surah Al Sajdah chapter 32 verse 4
Surah Qaf chapter 50 verse 38
Surah Al Hadid chapter 57 verse 4

The verses of the Qur’an which according to you say that the heavens and the earth were created in 8 days are Surah Fussilat chapter 41 verses 9 to 12

"Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two days? And do ye join equals With him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds;

He set on the (earth) mountains standing firm, High above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, In four days, in accordance with (the needs of) Those who seek (sustenance)."

Moreover, He Comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth. "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly. They said: "We do come (Together), in willing obedience."

So He completed them as seven firmaments in two days and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command and We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the decree of (Him) the exalted in might, full of knowledge." [Al-Qur’an 41:9-12]

On the face of it, it seems that these verses of the Qur’an give the initial impression that the heavens and the earth were created in 8 days.

Allah says in the beginning of this verse that those who exploit this information contained in this passage to raise doubts about its authenticity are equally interested in promulgating blasphemy and denying His unity. Allah is telling us that in course of time, there will emerge unbelievers who will make use of this apparent contradiction.

2. Summa means moreover

If you analyse these verses carefully, it speaks about 2 different creations: the earth and the heaven. The earth excluding the mountains was created in 2 days and the mountains were set on the earth standing firm and blessed and measured its sustenance in 4 days. Therefore the earth along with the mountains was created in 6 days according to verse 9 and 10. Verse 11 and 12 says, moreover the heavens were created in 2 days. The Arabic word used in the beginning of verse 11 of Surah Fussilat is summa which means; ‘then’ or ‘moreover’. There are certain Qur’anic translations, which have, used ‘then’ for the word summa which, indicates ‘afterwards’. If ‘then’ is wrongly used for summa then the total of the creation of heaven and earth will be 8 days which will conflict with other verses of the Qur’an which says heavens and earth were created in 6 days and will also conflict with the Big Bang Theory as well as the verse of the Qur’an Surah Al Ambiya chapter 21 verse 30 which says that heavens and the earth were created simultaneously.

Therefore the correct translation of the word summa in this verse would be ‘moreover’. Abdullah Yusuf Ali has rightly translated the word summa or moreover which clearly gives an indication that while the earth along with the mountains, etc. was created in 6 days simultaneously the heavens were created in 2 days. Therefore the total does not come to 8 days but 6 days.

If a builder says that he will construct a 10 storey building and surrounding compound wall in 6 months and after completion of his project he gives a more detailed account saying that the basement of the building was built in 2 months and the 10 storeys took 4 months and simultaneously, while the basement and the building was being constructed, he also constructed the surrounding of the building along with the compound wall which took 2 months. Therefore both his first and second descriptions are not contradicting but the second statement gives a more detailed account for the construction.

3. Heavens and the Earth created simultaneously

The Qur’an describe the creation of the universe in several places, sometimes it says the heavens and the earth (7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59, 32:4, 50:38, 57:4) while in other places it says earth and the heaven (49:9-12, 2:29, 20:4) thus further supplementing the verse of Surah Al Ambiya chapter 21 verse 30 which speaks about the Big-Bang and that the heavens and the earth were created simultaneously.

Similarly in Surah Al-Baqara chapter 2 verse 29

"It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Then He turned to the heaven and made them into seven firmaments. And of all things He hath perfect knowledge." [Al-Qur’an 2:29]

"It is who has created for you all things on the earth summa simultaneously made the heaven into seven firmaments".

Here also if you wrongly translate summa as ‘then’ only then would this verse contradict the Big-bang theory and other verses of the Qur’an. Therefore the correct translation of the word summa is ‘moreover’ or ‘simultaneously’.
http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/misconceptions/b11.htm
 

EtuMalku

Abn Iblis ابن إبليس
I still don't get it . . .
Quran 7: 54 Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran 11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days

The above verses clearly state that God created the heaven and Allah created the heaven and the Earth in 6 days. But the verses below stated-
Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
Quran 41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…
Quran 41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …
Now do the math: 2(for earth) + 4(for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days; and not 6 days


I dont have the time to navigate through the IslamicAwareness website i will do so later on for now read the following:

Praise be to Allaah.

This is an issue which confuses some people, and some of them think that Allaah created the heavens and the earth in eight days as Allaah says in Soorah Fussilat (interpretation of the meaning):
“Say (O Muhammad): Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days? And you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists).
He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four ‘days’ were equal in the length of time) for all those who ask (about its creation).
Then He rose over (Istawa) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: ‘Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.’ They both said: ‘We come willingly.’
Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him, the All-Mighty, the All-Knower”
[Fussilat 41:9-12]
because this seems to contradict the other verse which says that He created them in six days.
This is a misunderstanding, and the answer to it is as follows:
There is no contradiction between the time period mentioned in these verses and the other verse which says that it was six days.
In these verses – from Soorah Fussilat – we see that Allaah is telling us that He “created the earth in two Days”.
Then He “placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers)” in four days equal– i.e., in two days that were added to the two days in which He created the earth, so the total is four days. It does not say that the creation of the mountains and the measuring of the sustenance took four days.
Perhaps the confusion which is mentioned in the question stems from this, i.e., from thinking that the four days are added to the two days in which the earth was created, equaling six, and then adding the two days in which the heavens were created (“Then He completed and finished from their creation (as) seven heavens in two Days”) – making a total of eight days, not six days. But this confusion can be dispelled by dealing with this mistaken notion. So the earth was created in two days, and the mountains were created and the sustenance measured in two more days which makes a total of four, i.e., this took the other two days. Then the creation of the seven heavens took two days. So the total is six days of the Days of Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted.
The mufassireen commented on this fact which deals with the mistaken notion. Al-Qurtubi said:
“in four days” – this is like someone saying, “I set out from Basra to Baghdad in ten days and to Kufa in fifteen days, i.e., a total time of fifteen days.” (al-Jaami’ li Ahkaam al-Qur’aan, vol. 15, p. 343).
Al-Baghawi said: “in four days” means the creation of what is in the earth. The measuring of the sustenance was on Tuesday and Wednesday, which along with Sunday and Monday add up to four days. This is like saying “I married a woman yesterday and today I married two” – one of whom is the woman whom he married the day before.
Tafseer al-Baghawi, 7/165
Al-Zajjaaj said: “in four days” means two days added to the previous two days.
Al-Kashshaaf, vol. 3, p. 444
These verses – from Soorah Fussilat – confirm the other verse, which says that the creation of the heavens and the earth was completed in six days. So there is no contradiction concerning the period in which Allaah created the heavens and the earth. There cannot be any such contradictions in the Qur’aan..

And Allaah knows best.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/31865
 

Starsoul

Truth
Your Prophet once said there will be 73 sects, all will go to hell except JAM'AH so it seem pretty major to me.

"There will be 73 sects among you, and all will go to hell except one group." when asked later, which group, He(pbuh) replied, ' Those who follow the Quran and sunnah." This is the correct hadees by the Prophet.

'Jammah' means a group of people, its not the name of any sect. So it is implied here that there will be people among all or most groups who will act within the circle of true teachings of the Quran and the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) and they will go to heaven.

And there will be few groups among Muslims which have known to add their additional stuff to the religion, which in their opinion gives a modern or more practice worthy touch ( for whichever reasons) and hence deviate from the true teachings of The Prophet Muhammad (Saww).

The religion Islam is the most Modern religion which has been given to the world. All religions and beliefs have known to exist before Islam, from polytheism and atheism, to hinduism, christianity, judaism, and satanic followers of several different names.
 
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