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The Problems with the Qur'an

Kodanshi

Kodanshi

StygnosticA
control.to.win said:
Good. If possible, could everyone else also quote specific verses or paraphrase diff. sections of the Qur'an they have a problem with. It would make this thread more informative.
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I made a list once, which I’ll have to dig up for you. In a hell of a LOT of passages allah states that IT ALONE seals the hearts of unbelievers against the truth and actively leads them astray! :thud:
 
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bowingtoGod

Member
Autodidact said:
O.K. I have a deal for you. Either (1) deconvert to atheism (2) Pay a significant portion of your income to atheists (3) risk your life to defend your freedom not to be an atheist. Sound fair to you?
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but the jizya was used for their sake as well. It was meant for the people of the nation, and that would mostly be non Muslims. And also, there is only war in self defense/retaliation and oppression. If none of those are met then Muslims have absolutely no right to invade another country.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
bowingtoGod said:
but the jizya was used for their sake as well. It was meant for the people of the nation, and that would mostly be non Muslims. And also, there is only war in self defense/retaliation and oppression. If none of those are met then Muslims have absolutely no right to invade another country.
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How is using my money to conquer more lands for my sake?

Great, like I said, fine. Now please give me 1/4 of your income. In exchange, I will not kill you, and will allow you to practice Islam. Deal? Sound fair to you?

And please stop lying. Islam conquered most of the ancient world. Obviously you don't conquer thousands of square miles of land in self-defense. Duh.
 
McBell

McBell

Unbound
battar said:
There are numerous holy books in the libraries, from many religions, each claiming to be divine truth. Whichever religion you believe in, it is reasonable to conclude that the books pertaining to the other religions are in fact false. If, for example, you accept the Qu'ran as truth, then the Gospels must contain some inaccuracies.
So if I were to take any holy book, at random, and give it to you, it's a fair bet that whatever your religion is, you are now holding a book which is not all truth. A reasonable man should therefore assume that a holy book contains falsehoods unless proven otherwise, since you already agree that most of them do.
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Seems to me that you do not have to use a "Holy Book" to do this.

Whenever you take one book, regardless of which book, and use it as the standard to judge all other books, all other books will fail.
Simple as that.

The exact same goes for beliefs.
Once you take one set of beliefs and use it for the standard in which to judge all other beliefs, all other will beliefs will fail.
 
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bowingtoGod

Member
Autodidact said:
How is using my money to conquer more lands for my sake?

Great, like I said, fine. Now please give me 1/4 of your income. In exchange, I will not kill you, and will allow you to practice Islam. Deal? Sound fair to you?

And please stop lying. Islam conquered most of the ancient world. Obviously you don't conquer thousands of square miles of land in self-defense. Duh.
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why are you being rude? :(
The money is only to be used for the state, if to conquer more lands then it must only be in retaliation to an injustice.
And it isn't 1/4, the jizya is even less then zakat which the Muslims must pay.

Islam conquered those lands because of things they did against the Ummah. Some tried to attack the Prophet (pbuh) himself, and others strove to hurt some parts of the Ummah or something. Sure taking over is kind of overdoing it, and then forcing a tax on them is not fair, but that is what happened.
 
kai

kai

ragamuffin
bowingtoGod said:
why are you being rude? :(
The money is only to be used for the state, if to conquer more lands then it must only be in retaliation to an injustice.
And it isn't 1/4, the jizya is even less then zakat which the Muslims must pay.

Islam conquered those lands because of things they did against the Ummah. Some tried to attack the Prophet (pbuh) himself, and others strove to hurt some parts of the Ummah or something. Sure taking over is kind of overdoing it, and then forcing a tax on them is not fair, but that is what happened.
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Yep on the one hand Muslims can only wage war in self defence and on the other we have vast tracts of empire, funny that?
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
To sum up:
The quran is a long collection of virtually indecipherable gibberish, randomly alternated with violent commandments, sexist tripe, and ancient tribal superstition, arranged in no decipherable order.

Other than that, it's fine.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
fatima_bintu_islam said:
Have you read it?
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I confess that I can only slog through parts at a time, and then run into the gibberish, tripe, superstition, violence, etc. and put it down again. I doubt that I will ever get very far into it. It's basically my experience with the Book of Mormon--same thing. I read a few pages, struggle to understand the turgid prose, realize it wasn't worth the struggle, and stop.

Stuff like this:
But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. (Surah 22:19-22)

I find the whole idea of "Do what I say and get a big reward after you die, disobey me and get a big punishment when you die" so ludicrous on its face that it's not worth reading the particulars. And "believe this or be punished--" to me, if something is true you show it with evidence, not by threatening people with torment if they don't find the evidence convincing. That's just wrong.
 
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bowingtoGod

Member
Autodidact said:
I confess that I can only slog through parts at a time, and then run into the gibberish, tripe, superstition, violence, etc. and put it down again. I doubt that I will ever get very far into it. It's basically my experience with the Book of Mormon--same thing. I read a few pages, struggle to understand the turgid prose, realize it wasn't worth the struggle, and stop.

Stuff like this:
But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. (Surah 22:19-22)

I find the whole idea of "Do what I say and get a big reward after you die, disobey me and get a big punishment when you die" so ludicrous on its face that it's not worth reading the particulars. And "believe this or be punished--" to me, if something is true you show it with evidence, not by threatening people with torment if they don't find the evidence convincing. That's just wrong.
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Unless it is evident to them, there is no punishment :)
that being said, you can read a translation of the Qur'an and understand some of it, and still not be punished. The Qur'an doesn't condemn all non Muslims. Just those that had "knowledge" of the truth, and rejected it. What that means is up for interpretation. Could it mean the idea of monotheism? Possibly. Some Muslims believe that Jews, Christians, and all monotheists will get into paradise.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
bowingtoGod said:
Unless it is evident to them, there is no punishment :)
that being said, you can read a translation of the Qur'an and understand some of it, and still not be punished. The Qur'an doesn't condemn all non Muslims. Just those that had "knowledge" of the truth, and rejected it. What that means is up for interpretation. Could it mean the idea of monotheism? Possibly. Some Muslims believe that Jews, Christians, and all monotheists will get into paradise.
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Yes, the fact that it's so confusing that no two Muslims can agree on what it means is another strike against it.

Who gets the eternal hellfire is a rather important point you would think God would have wanted to make clear but no, we get to just take our chances on that.
 
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bowingtoGod

Member
Autodidact said:
Yes, the fact that it's so confusing that no two Muslims can agree on what it means is another strike against it.

Who gets the eternal hellfire is a rather important point you would think God would have wanted to make clear but no, we get to just take our chances on that.
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If you don't want to take chances then become Muslim lol
Salaam
 
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bowingtoGod

Member
Mestemia said:
You seem to not know what this "truth" actually is.
I am merely pointing out that that is the point.
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yes. So Whatever is the truth, God knows, and he will be the one to judge. So whatever that truth is, and some think it is just monotheism, they will be saved. Hence, some people believe that Jews, Christians, and others will still be saved.
 
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