The Prophet (s) and Imams (a) stated Mohammad (s) is the final Nabi.

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He didn’t have to say that. It is obvious.
Ahlulbayt is not among you.
Prophet did not say, replace them with Hadith.
It was God's will, the Ahlulbayt will not be among you any longer.

Now, your forefathers replaced them with Hadith and Tafseer. This is their invention. They did not want to just accept the Will of God.
This is where Islam went wrong.

Hadith and tafseer is a coping mechanism trying to "hold on to Quran and Ahlulbayt" as much as we can.

The Quran orders mankind to query the family of the reminder for knowledge and says it's part of relying on God. Yet Quran doesn't have their Arabic names there although it has the 14 mysterious sequences, that is not something people can relate them to the Imams without knowing about them from hadiths and history.

What is more sensible, to abandon all narrations passed on from Ahlulbayt (a) and just hold on to Quran, or work with the legacy of what is attributed to Ahlulbayt (a)?

To forget all historical references to Ahlulbayt (a) and go all only Quran approach?

The Quran didn't say "ask the family of the reminder if you do not know but only follow Quran when the 11th successor passes away".

This is your invention. Same with instructing us to obey the Messenger and Ulil-Amr. It didn't say, "obey Ulul-Amr until the 11th passes away, then stick to Quran only".

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What about the hadiths that state it's Surah Fatiha?

Please quote that Hadith.

Ahlulbayt Authority in Quran doesn't mean Prophet (S) said these words.

Agree. But, if a Hadith is in agreement with Quran, or the same can be found in the Quran, it is fair to say, it is a true Hadith.

I'm asking you how do you know he said these words?

We can never prove, that, any Hadith is indeed from an Imam or the Prophet.

This is because, they (Prophet or Imams) did not review Hadithes one by one to confirm Each Hadith.

In fact, in reality we cannot prove that all the verses of Quran are exactly what Muhammad had revealed, because He was not there when they compiled it To review and confirm.

Yet, if one "believes" that Muhammad Was the Messenger of God, and God wanted to protect it for guidence, then at this point, the believers have agreement, that Quran is Preserved.

And because God wanted it to be a guidence for all, it is complete, as the Book says, "there is nothing that Allah did not say in the Book"

So, when it comes to Hadithes, even such as the Hadith of two weighty things, we cannot prove it is a true Hadith, yet, I can believe it is true, as it is in agreement with the verse.

Let's say, you do not want to accept even the Hadith of Two weighty things.
Then, why would you accept any other Hadith?
See even then, you are left with the Quran.

 

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Please quote that Hadith.




Agree. But, if a Hadith is in agreement with Quran, or the same can be found in the Quran, it is fair to say, it is a true Hadith.



We can never prove, that, any Hadith is indeed from an Imam or the Prophet.

This is because, they (Prophet or Imams) did not review Hadithes one by one to confirm Each Hadith.

In fact, in reality we cannot prove that all the verses of Quran are exactly what Muhammad had revealed, because He was not there when they compiled it To review and confirm.

Yet, if one "believes" that Muhammad Was the Messenger of God, and God wanted to protect it for guidence, then at this point, the believers have agreement, that Quran is Preserved.

And because God wanted it to be a guidence for all, it is complete, as the Book says, "there is nothing that Allah did not say in the Book"

So, when it comes to Hadithes, even such as the Hadith of two weighty things, we cannot prove it is a true Hadith, yet, I can believe it is true, as it is in agreement with the verse.

Let's say, you do not want to accept even the Hadith of Two weighty things.
Then, why would you accept any other Hadith?
See even then, you are left with the Quran.

Okay fair answer. From what I see the hadith of manzilat is as tuwatur or even has more authentic chains then thaqalayn hadith. In it, it says "except there is no Nabi after me". He could've said "after me until the Mahdi".

The line is also found in Du'a Nudba which your Prophet said is the words of Imams.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Quran doesn't contain the details of Salah. Did we invent Salah?

Nope, but Quran asks you to say Salah. For its details you saw Hadithes.
But, Quran does not ask you to establish a Government. Had Quran asked Muslims to establish an Islamic Government, then, you could get some guidence from Hadithes about it, as how to do so.
See the difference?
Salah has its origin in the Quran. Establishing an Islamic Government does not have its origin in the Quran

 

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Nope, but Quran asks you to say Salah. For its details you saw Hadithes.
But, Quran does not ask you to establish a Government. Had Quran asked Muslims to establish an Islamic Government, then, you could get some guidence from Hadithes about it, as how to do so.
See the difference?

The word rule and judge are same in Arabic. Are you certain it does not say to establish government? Do you understand power dynamics? What about the verse to muster whatever we can of power against enemies of God.? I agree that we no longer need get horses, but surely, you are not being fair in your assessment!

The Rasool (s) is supposed to be ruler/judge in midst of people and that is the purpose of the revelation per Quran. In words of Quran it says the purpose of revelation revealed to Mohamad (s) is to:

(1) Warn the worlds
(2) For Mohammad (s) to be the ruler/judge in midst of people by what God has shown him
(3) To bring people out of darkness to the light
(4) So that people rule by what God revealed
(5) That the Messenger be obeyed by God's permission

All these are interchangeable and part of the same coin.

All the verses teaching believers to defend themselves would not make sense if God wanted us to not establish government. That makes no sense. God doesn't trust disbelievers to not harm believers ever in the Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Okay fair answer. From what I see the hadith of manzilat is as tuwatur or even has more authentic chains then thaqalayn hadith. In it, it says "except there is no Nabi after me". He could've said "after me until the Mahdi".

The line is also found in Du'a Nudba which your Prophet said is the words of Imams.

A Hadith being Mutawatir is not a proof that it is Authentic.
Consider, some men, could have made a Hadith, and in order to make it more believable, they made many different of the Hadith with different chains. Then when you see it, you think it must be true Hadith.
In fact, there is possibility that a weak Hadith be authentic and a Mutawatir Hadith be fake. You cannot prove.

Are you sure that Hadith of Thaghalayn is invented? How can you be, when there is a verse that testifies to it.

With regards to the Hadith of "there is no Nabi after Muhammad", all I asked you, was to show a verse that testifies to that.

you see, when I say, the verses of "Two Sevens and Quran" is about the 14 infallibles and the Quran, I don't make this up. I brought several Hadith that explains that verse.
so, when you bring me Hadith that say, "there is no Prophet after Muhammad" i ask the same from you. Prove it from the Quran...

So, the only way, one can believe a Hadith is true, is by finding the verses that are in parallel with the Hadith.

But, beside the subject of Authenticity, I think you are missing the point I am making Here.

What I am discussing here, is really the issue of "context".

For example, when we want to understand a verse of Quran, there is a context for it. We can read a few verses before and after it, to understand the context. We do not just quote a verse out of context and say this means so and so.
That would a kind of Tahreef.

Now, there are Hadithes that, even within the contxt of the Surrah, still may not be completely clear To some of us. Now we can find Hadithes that explains the context farther, and helps with interpretation.

But, when you start by quoting a Hadith, without its connection to a verse, the issue is, it does not have a context. You don't know, why that Hadith was said. Was it because someone asked a question? What was the question? Was it about a verse?
This is the main concern about mis-using a Hadith.
Beside all these, look what Quran says:

"Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book, ˹which is˺ recited to them." 29:51

If the Book is not sufficient, how is it that Allah testifies that it is sufficient?

Qur’an says: “and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything (16:89)

“ ....... the Quran was revealed as a guide for humanity with clear proofs of guidance and the standard ˹to distinguish between right and wrong˺). (2:185).

So, now, since Quran has clear proofs to distinguish between wrong and right, the question is, I want to know if there is no Prophet or Revelation after Muhammad forever. Can you please bring proof from the Quran to distinguish between falsehood and truth with this regard?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Hadith and tafseer is a coping mechanism trying to "hold on to Quran and Ahlulbayt" as much as we can.

The Quran orders mankind to query the family of the reminder for knowledge and says it's part of relying on God. Yet Quran doesn't have their Arabic names there although it has the 14 mysterious sequences, that is not something people can relate them to the Imams without knowing about them from hadiths and history.

What is more sensible, to abandon all narrations passed on from Ahlulbayt (a) and just hold on to Quran, or work with the legacy of what is attributed to Ahlulbayt (a)?

To forget all historical references to Ahlulbayt (a) and go all only Quran approach?

Please see my last post.

When it comes to Recorded traditions, these are not Authoritative.
Do you know what I mean by Authoritative?
Allah did not tell you, that you must record Traditions and follow them later as guidance. Yet, if these Hadithes can provide some more light into understanding some of the unclear verses of Quran, you can use it, provided there are proofs from the Quran, the Hadith is not false, and that it has truth in it. But only Quran is Authoritative at the end of the day.

The Quran didn't say "ask the family of the reminder if you do not know but only follow Quran when the 11th successor passes away".

There are many things Quran does not say. It does not mean it is the Right way.
Quran tells us, the followings:

1. It is a complete guidance and sufficient guidance to know falsw from truth.
2. It tells you, God gave you the 14, in addition to the Quran.
3. It tells us, they are the well-rounded in knowledge and know its interpretation
4. It tells us, every Ummah has an expiration (7:34)

that tells us, it is not like, the truth always remains in an Ummah. It tells us, follow Quran, and learn its interpretation from the Imams.
Once your Imams are passed away, it does not give you any farther instructions, to use Hadithes.

By that time, the truth is established according to the Will of God.
After this point, you are left with Quran.
even when Your Imams were in the world, they didn't do or say, in addition to the Quran. They followed only the Quran.

This is your invention. Same with instructing us to obey the Messenger and Ulil-Amr. It didn't say, "obey Ulul-Amr until the 11th passes away, then stick to Quran only".

Then what does it say?

Please explain the instruction that Quran gives, after the 11th Imam passes away.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The word rule and judge are same in Arabic.

ok.

Are you certain it does not say to establish government?

Absolutely certain. Kindly prove it with verses that clearly asks Muslims to establish an Islamic Government.

Do you understand power dynamics? What about the verse to muster whatever we can of power against enemies of God.?

Firstly there is a difference between having a country with a government than having a country with an Islamic Government that claimes, they are established according to the instructions of God.

beside this, Muhammad had the mission of Revealing the Quran to Establish the Faith of God. In those days, the enemies wanted to kill Muhammad, and put off the Light. It was necessary for Muhammad in His time, to do Holy war, as defense so that He can live long enough to complete Revelation of the Quran.
you cannot compare later time, with Muhammad. Now Quran is completed and is with everyone one who wants to use it as guidance. When did Allah say, establish Islamic Government? What is the need to do so, when Quran is available now?

I agree that we no longer need get horses, but surely, you are not being fair in your assessment!

why am I not being fair? For example Iran had a Kingdom government just prior to this Islamic Government. Currently, all the western counties have a non-religious government. If they have to defend against an enemy, that does not justify that they need to have a Religious Government. Where does this idea come from?

The Rasool (s) is supposed to be ruler/judge in midst of people

It is to Judge between truth and falsehood. It is to Rule in the sense that, He reveals the commands of God for people. Not in a sense that He rules like other Kings or Leaders who have a Government or Kingdom.
Kindly prove your point with verses of the Quran.

and that is the purpose of the revelation per Quran

This is 100 percent where Islam is gone wrong. The Purpose of Muhammad was to Judge between falsehood and truth, by revealing Quran as a guidence. Another name for Quran is Forqan, meaning separating between false and true.
the Purpose of the Quran has never been to enable the Messenger to establish a Government. I am so sorry with this incorrect understanding.
kindly prove your point with the verses of the Quran.

. In words of Quran it says the purpose of revelation revealed to Mohamad (s) is to:

Ok, let's see

(1) Warn the worlds

True. Muhammad came as a warner. But to warn about what? About Day of Resurrection:


"And warn them, [O Muhammad], of the Day of Regret, when the matter will be concluded; and [yet], they are in [a state of] heedlessness, and they do not believe."
19:39

Warn them, that there will be a consequence for rejecting the truth.

(2) For Mohammad (s) to be the ruler/judge in midst of people by what God has shown him

Judge, yes. Ruler, in the sense that, He reveals the commands from God. Ruler, in the sense that He is given Authority by God, to ask people to obey Him. But not as a Ruller who establishes a Government and forces people to follow Him or get punished. Do you see the difference?

(3) To bring people out of darkness to the light

sure.

(4) So that people rule by what God revealed

nope. Not in a sense that, God instructed anyone to establish a Government to enforce the Laws of Islam.
But as a guidence for those who want to live according to the commands of God.
yet, "there is no compulsion in Religion "

(5) That the Messenger be obeyed by God's permission

Nope. There is no compulsion in Religion.
God asks mankind to obey the Messenger, just as He commands to say your Regular Prayer. Yet, there is no compulsion. If one does not obey, its consequences is only between him and God.

As said, there is no verse that asks Prophet to establish a Government, and even if there was, what does that have to do with ordinary Muslims and their Ulama? Absolutely no verse that asks Muslims to establish an Islamic Government to Rule with Islamic Law.

All these are interchangeable and part of the same coin.

All the verses teaching believers to defend themselves would not make sense if God wanted us to not establish government. That makes no sense. God doesn't trust disbelievers to not harm believers ever in the Quran.

Of course it makes sense. As I explained, God has given a set of Laws, and a lot of guidence for each individual to follow.
You can say your prayer, fast, help the poor, do not do adultry or fornication, do not drink wine, do not steal, be honest, do not back bite, be kind to all creatures, etc.
You do not need a Government to force you to do So. You need Imaan (Firm beliefs and Faith in God.). You need Love for God to follow and be close to God. No need to establish an Islamic Government, as this is just an invention.
You obey God and His messenger for the Love that you have about them, not for the fear of Hell or Greed of Heaven, let alone for some Government that forces it on you.
The purpose of God for asking you to obey His Laws and messenger, is for your own sake, so that it makes you a better human being, turning us to a person with good human attributes, such as kindness, forgiving, generosity, honesty, etc.
You can be that person, only by following the Book of God. No need for someone else who is a sinner to force it on you.

Beside this, establishing an Islamic Government by fallible people, opens the door for abusing the power, and stealing people's money by those who pretend to be Godly, but indeed are nothing but wrongdoers who took advantage of Religion of God, and the Naive people.

Like I said, there is no such instruction to establish a religious government, and you cannot make a conclusion, because if God wanted it, He would have said it directly, and clearly, so, you did not have to take a guess or make your own conclusion. He could very easily say,

Oh Believers, in every country you live, establish a Government in the name of Allah, and rule by the Sharia Law.

How come I can say that so clearly and your Allah could not? I can even perhaps write a Surrah.. Surrah of Government.

You guys make Allah look like a little kid, forgetful and weak who can not convey his messages or wishes clearly, and now ulama have to constantly tell everyone this little Allah means to say so and so.

 

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Salam

I would say Islamic government is as clear in Quran as day of judgment is. But we know to you Quran is not clear on day of judgment, so I can see why Islamic government is not clear to you.

Some things to notice is Surah Maeda flows about Welayat Ali (a) and Ghadeer declaration. In this context it talks about making God a ruler/judge/legislator and not referring to the rule/judgement/government of ignorance and that God is the best ruler/judge/legislator for a people who are sure. This links to the Twelve Captains succeeding Musa (a) and the day God completed the religion.

The context that Torah was something by which Prophets governed means Torah gave authority to God's Prophets, and they ruled/governed/judged.

But in absence of them, does it mean society get's a free-pass to rule by ignorance and not by God's revelation? No it says even people of Injeel where to rule/govern/judge by what God revealed.

Also, Quran talks about to not take disbelievers as authority in terms of obedience in political and social affairs in Surah Auli-Imran. It says such authority must be from believers. Auli-Mohammad (s) were the authority, but in absence of them, we continue to take such leadership from the believers or else Quran says God will not have any Welayah towards people who take disbelievers instead.

Also, Surah Ahzab emphasizes not to obey disbelievers and hypocrites. Surah Hajj talks about believers if they are established on earth, would keep up prayers and command good and forbid evil.

The Quran also links the title of God being the Peace, the King, the Holy, with "Security Giver" (al-Momin). And Quran shows were it not for God fending off some by some men, the earth would be a severe state of corruption havoc and chaos. No Masjid, Or Synagogue or Church would be left standing either where it not for this resistance from God's forces.

Also much of Quran commands are such that they can only be implemented with a government. If a government doesn't believe in the legislation of the Quran, it would have to do other than God's commands in this regard, while Quran says such people who judge/govern/rule by what other than God revealed are disbelievers, transgressors and oppressors.

More will be said about Islamic government. To be continued...

 

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A Hadith being Mutawatir is not a proof that it is Authentic.

With some definitions of Tawatur no. Some easy definitions, lax definitions, and you get contradictions with tuwatur traditions. But some hadiths are so tawatur, it doesn't matter what definition you have of it, it's certainty. This hadith (Haroun position one analogy to Ali (a)) is such a hadith. It can't be doubted.

I would say thaqalayn hadith and Ghadeer declaration and hadithal manzilat are undoubted words from the Nabi (s).

 

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Beside all these, look what Quran says:

"Is it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book, ˹which is˺ recited to them." 29:51

The book was sent to Mohammad (s) recited to them. Do not take Mohammad (s) out of the equation, otherwise, why couldn't God just drop a book or many books?

If the Book is not sufficient, how is it that Allah testifies that it is sufficient?

Qur’an says: “and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything (16:89)

“ ....... the Quran was revealed as a guide for humanity with clear proofs of guidance and the standard ˹to distinguish between right and wrong˺). (2:185).

So, now, since Quran has clear proofs to distinguish between wrong and right, the question is, I want to know if there is no Prophet or Revelation after Muhammad forever. Can you please bring proof from the Quran to distinguish between falsehood and truth with this regard?

I can and have, but this is switch and bate in this thread.

 

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Please explain the instruction that Quran gives, after the 11th Imam passes away.

You follow to your best ability hadiths and the Quran and learn from who you can of the learned of community with the best intentions to follow God until you turn to God often enough, are convinced miracles are proof, and are at peace with God and following him that meeting Imam Mahdi (a) won't harm you. Asking God to guide knowing the straight path is lead by Imam Mahdi (a) and that spiritual light of his is important but so is physically meeting his human form (both are important and compliment and reinforce each other as signs and proof) - not despairing - but really fearing rejection but hoping acceptance, turning to God often, and then when Imam Mahdi (a) meets the believer regularly than it's a whole different life and the world secrets are revealed.

I've shown this before with 13:7 and the other reply "God misguides who he pleases and guides to it who turns to him often".

 

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It's tiresome how @InvestigateTruth moves goal posts. At one point, he said there is no hadiths saying there are no more Prophets (a) after Mohammad (s) and said Imams (a) would clearly state it.

When shown so many hadiths saying so, all of a sudden, hadiths are not an authority is the discussion.

 

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There is this ziyarat as well:

Ziyarah Imam Ali (peace be upon him) on Ghadeer Day 18 Zilhajj- Duas.org

Ziyarah Imam Ali (peace be upon him) on Ghadeer Day 18 Zilhajj-

www.duas.org

In it:

’يَا عَلِيُّ أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَىٰ
ya `aliyyu anta minni bimanzilati haruna min musa
‘O `Ali, your position to me is the same as (Prophet) Aaron’s position to (Prophet) Moses;

إِلاَّ أَنَّهُ لاَ نَبِيَّ بَعْدِي
illa annahu la nabiyya ba`di
except there shall be no prophet after me.