The prophethood of Mohammad???

[Mujahid Mohammed]

"People always do things better with a teacher, and since we are commanded to obey Allah and submit to His complete religion by accepting His as the only one to worship and Muhammed is His last and Final Messenger who by the will of Allah is the perfect example of someone who follows the truth of Allah, by being just, humble, honest, compassionate, forgiving, above all the best example of a human being ever. "

I can agree with much of this, for us we have the station of Abdu'l Baha as defined by Baha`u'llah as 'The Perfect Exemplar'. In a sense it is Abdu'l Baha who is the source of Baha`i 'hadith', though his interpretations are declared perfect by Baha`u'llah.

good to know.

I would point out that the Sanhedrin persecuted Christ for just the reason you shut out the possibility of further Apostles of God. Using the 'perfect mullah' as interpreter of the meaning of Muhammed's words. Christ was not sufficiently auhoritative to be the Messiah, therefore He was ignored. To Islam, the Bab and Baha`u'llah are the subject of persecution in the same tradition.

Regards,
Scott

Not really they denied he was denied as being the Messiah because they felt he wasn't the one they are still waiting on. We deny the possibility of anyone coming after him, so there is no question anyone coming who claims prophethood or Messengership or saying he speaks to God or God spoke to me last night. We know he is a liar. But yeah I agree but I think all persecution is done in the same tradition no matter who victim or causer. It is always the same scenario.

 

[Popeyesays]

Who is nabi (Prophet) and Who is rasul (Apostle)? And what's the difference, anyway?

God doth not command you to take the angels or the prophets as lord.
What! would he command you to become infidels after ye have been Muslims?
When God entered into covenant with the prophets[nabiyyín], he said, "This is the
Book and the Wisdom which I give you. Hereafter shall a prophet[rasúl] come unto you
to confirm the Scriptures already with you. Ye shall surely believe on him,
and ye shall surely aid him.
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 3 - The Family of Imran)

From http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=fananapazir_fazel_finality_islam :
"3. The qualities and functions of prophets and apostles in their Qur'ánic context.

As previously mentioned, prophethood is within the heritage of Abraham and his descendants, and also seems to be closely associated with the Scripture brought by them:[17]

We appointed the Prophecy [nubuwwah] and the Book to be among his seed [dhurriyyah]. (29:27, emphasis added)

We gave the children of Israel the Book, the Judgement and the Prophethood. (45:16, emphasis added)​

Moreover the Qur'án states that several prophets are linked with specific sacred texts: Abraham with the suhuf (scrolls), Moses with the Torah, David with the Psalms, Jesus with the Gospels, and Muhammad with the Qur'án itself. In addition, a common feature of the prophets is that they are part of God's Covenant:

Remember we took from the prophets [nabiyyín] their Covenant [mítháq]. (33:7)[18]

When God entered into covenant [mítháq] with the prophets [nabiyyín], he said, "This is the Book and the Wisdom which I give you. Hereafter shall a prophet [rasúl] come unto you to confirm the Scriptures already with you. Ye shall surely believe on him, and ye shall surely aid him". (3:75)[19]

(God doth not command you to take the angels or the prophets as lord.
What! would he command you to become infidels after ye have been Muslims?
When God entered into covenant with the prophets[nabiyyín], he said, "This is the
Book and the Wisdom which I give you. Hereafter shall a prophet[rasúl] come unto you
to confirm the Scriptures already with you. Ye shall surely believe on him,
and ye shall surely aid him.
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 3 - The Family of Imran))
​

The term apostle also has specific associations. First there is the Qur'ánic assertion that "every community [umma] has its (own) messenger [rasúl]" (10:47, 16:38, 17:15, 23:44, 30:47). He acts as his community's representative with God. More importantly, he is also God's representative to his people, and in this context he has a unique authority. Men are called to listen to, believe in and obey God and his apostle. Indeed the words obey-obedience [atá`a], disobey-disobedience are used twenty-eight times in connection with the rasúl (messenger), but not one single time with nabí (prophet). A further feature is that the apostle is the bearer of a `manifest' message: "it is only for the messenger [rasúl] to deliver the manifest message" (29:18).[20]

Future Messengers

Finally a significant difference that has been identified by Bahá'í writers between prophets and apostles is the reference of Qur'án 7:34. This verse appears to promise the coming of apostles in the future:

O Children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you.[21]​

However Muslim commentators and most later Western translators have rendered the verb in this verse, `there shall come to you,' as part of a conditional clause, arguing that "the use of the energetic ya'tiyannakum serves the purpose of strengthening the conditional meaning" (Moayyad, Historical 79). Thus, Yusuf `Alí has translated the phrase as, "Whenever there come to you Apostles" (349), and Arberry's version is, "If there should come to you Messengers ..." (146). There are two prima facie objections to a conditional meaning. The first is based on the Arabic of the verb `shall come to you' in Qur'án 7:34 which transliterates as "Immá ya'tíyyannakum". This form of the trilateral root A.T.Y. is the imperfect active form (mudári'), indicating action in the future (Kassis, Concordance xxviii), suffixed by yanna which puts the verb in an energetic mode. This form of the verb also occurs in Qur'án 2:38 which more accurately is rendered, "yet there shall come to you guidance from Me".[22] The second objection to the conditional translation of ya'tíyyannakum is that these modern translations of 7:34 lead to a logically inconsistent position, for they indicate here that God has given the possibility of future apostles appearing to humanity when elsewhere, as in Qur'án 33:40, such a possibility is categorically excluded (Moayyad, Historical 80)."

So is there a real distinction between nabi and rasul in the text of the Qur'an and if so, why so?

And yes, this ties in with the concept of "finality".

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Fortunately, Baha`i's don't have to wonder about authenticity of Baha`u'llah's words, it's ALL His own words, and we do not rely upon and are, in fact, told NOT to rely on oral tradition which may be mistaken or misunderstood.

Excatly, that's why you don't have to follow Baha`u'llah because it's his own words as you said but not the word of God.

Well said.

 

[TashaN]

Who is nabi (Prophet) and Who is rasul (Apostle)? And what's the difference, anyway?

God doth not command you to take the angels or the prophets as lord.
What! would he command you to become infidels after ye have been Muslims?
When God entered into covenant with the prophets[nabiyyín], he said, "This is the
Book and the Wisdom which I give you. Hereafter shall a prophet[rasúl] come unto you
to confirm the Scriptures already with you. Ye shall surely believe on him,
and ye shall surely aid him.
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 3 - The Family of Imran)

From http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=fananapazir_fazel_finality_islam :
"3. The qualities and functions of prophets and apostles in their Qur'ánic context.

As previously mentioned, prophethood is within the heritage of Abraham and his descendants, and also seems to be closely associated with the Scripture brought by them:[17]

We appointed the Prophecy [nubuwwah] and the Book to be among his seed [dhurriyyah]. (29:27, emphasis added)

We gave the children of Israel the Book, the Judgement and the Prophethood. (45:16, emphasis added)
​

Moreover the Qur'án states that several prophets are linked with specific sacred texts: Abraham with the suhuf (scrolls), Moses with the Torah, David with the Psalms, Jesus with the Gospels, and Muhammad with the Qur'án itself. In addition, a common feature of the prophets is that they are part of God's Covenant:

Remember we took from the prophets [nabiyyín] their Covenant [mítháq]. (33:7)[18]

When God entered into covenant [mítháq] with the prophets [nabiyyín], he said, "This is the Book and the Wisdom which I give you. Hereafter shall a prophet [rasúl] come unto you to confirm the Scriptures already with you. Ye shall surely believe on him, and ye shall surely aid him". (3:75)[19]

(God doth not command you to take the angels or the prophets as lord.
What! would he command you to become infidels after ye have been Muslims?
When God entered into covenant with the prophets[nabiyyín], he said, "This is the
Book and the Wisdom which I give you. Hereafter shall a prophet[rasúl] come unto you
to confirm the Scriptures already with you. Ye shall surely believe on him,
and ye shall surely aid him.
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 3 - The Family of Imran))

​

The term apostle also has specific associations. First there is the Qur'ánic assertion that "every community [umma] has its (own) messenger [rasúl]" (10:47, 16:38, 17:15, 23:44, 30:47). He acts as his community's representative with God. More importantly, he is also God's representative to his people, and in this context he has a unique authority. Men are called to listen to, believe in and obey God and his apostle. Indeed the words obey-obedience [atá`a], disobey-disobedience are used twenty-eight times in connection with the rasúl (messenger), but not one single time with nabí (prophet). A further feature is that the apostle is the bearer of a `manifest' message: "it is only for the messenger [rasúl] to deliver the manifest message" (29:18).[20]

Future Messengers

Finally a significant difference that has been identified by Bahá'í writers between prophets and apostles is the reference of Qur'án 7:34. This verse appears to promise the coming of apostles in the future:

O Children of Adam! there shall come to you Apostles from among yourselves, rehearsing my signs to you.[21]​

However Muslim commentators and most later Western translators have rendered the verb in this verse, `there shall come to you,' as part of a conditional clause, arguing that "the use of the energetic ya'tiyannakum serves the purpose of strengthening the conditional meaning" (Moayyad, Historical 79). Thus, Yusuf `Alí has translated the phrase as, "Whenever there come to you Apostles" (349), and Arberry's version is, "If there should come to you Messengers ..." (146). There are two prima facie objections to a conditional meaning. The first is based on the Arabic of the verb `shall come to you' in Qur'án 7:34 which transliterates as "Immá ya'tíyyannakum". This form of the trilateral root A.T.Y. is the imperfect active form (mudári'), indicating action in the future (Kassis, Concordance xxviii), suffixed by yanna which puts the verb in an energetic mode. This form of the verb also occurs in Qur'án 2:38 which more accurately is rendered, "yet there shall come to you guidance from Me".[22] The second objection to the conditional translation of ya'tíyyannakum is that these modern translations of 7:34 lead to a logically inconsistent position, for they indicate here that God has given the possibility of future apostles appearing to humanity when elsewhere, as in Qur'án 33:40, such a possibility is categorically excluded (Moayyad, Historical 80)."

So is there a real distinction between nabi and rasul in the text of the Qur'an and if so, why so?

And yes, this ties in with the concept of "finality".

Regards,
Scott

Do you know that you confuse me when you attach some verses from the Quran in the middle of Bahi' scriptures?

If you want to discuss the Quran so just mention the verses you want following it with your question. So simple.

Anyway, just to make you relax from now. Read in here with me what prophet Mohammed told us.

"O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray".

http://www.islamfortoday.com/lastsermon.htm
​

 

[Popeyesays]

Actually, brother, there was no Baha`i writings in the paper at all. The only thing quoted was Quranic verse.

"(God doth not command you to take the angels or the prophets as lord.
What! would he command you to become infidels after ye have been Muslims?
When God entered into covenant with the prophets[nabiyyín], he said, "This is the
Book and the Wisdom which I give you. Hereafter shall a prophet[rasúl] come unto you
to confirm the Scriptures already with you. Ye shall surely believe on him,
and ye shall surely aid him."
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 3 - The Family of Imran))

Why does this verse use both terms 'nabi' and 'rasul' if the distinction is not important?

The paper I was referring to a scholarly work, and while it quotes various scriptures, mostly from the Qur'an. The whole paper is availoable at the website cited.

""O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray"."

Is there a citation for this?

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Actually, brother, there was no Baha`i writings in the paper at all. The only thing quoted was Quranic verse.

Too much text just confuse me. Sorry for that.

"(God doth not command you to take the angels or the prophets as lord.
What! would he command you to become infidels after ye have been Muslims?
When God entered into covenant with the prophets[nabiyyín], he said, "This is the
Book and the Wisdom which I give you. Hereafter shall a prophet[rasúl] come unto you
to confirm the Scriptures already with you. Ye shall surely believe on him,
and ye shall surely aid him."
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 3 - The Family of Imran))

Why does this verse use both terms 'nabi' and 'rasul' if the distinction is not important?

Who said it's not important?

Also, i didn't get it yet, so what if there "naby" and "Rassul" in the verse?

Anyway, the verse clearly state the nabiyyín "plural" because the prophets whom God sent are much more than the Rasuls so it was in general but the later one which Rassul point out a specific man "Rassul" who was sent to a specific people.

""O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray"."


Is there a citation for this?

What do you mean by that?

You can check my siganture in blue with the name "The Last Sermon of Prophet Muhammad", or just google it.

 

[Popeyesays]

I meant what is the authenticity of "Muhammad's Last Sermon". Is it Hadith, I can't find it in the Bukhari hadith at all.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

I meant what is the authenticity of "Muhammad's Last Sermon". Is it Hadith, I can't find it in the Bukhari hadith at all.

Regards,
Scott

I told you already, just google it, because i'm bad at searching hadiths in english.

Anyway, this might help.

The last sermon of the Prophet-peace be upon him- is known as Khutbatul Wada'. It is mentioned in almost all books of Hadith. Following Ahadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari refer to the sermon and quote part of it. See Al-Bukhari, Hadith 1623, 1626, 6361) Sahih of Imam Muslim also refers to this sermon in Hadith number 98. Imam al-Tirmidhi has mentioned this sermon in Hadith nos. 1628, 2046, 2085. Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal has given us the longest and perhaps the most complete version of this sermon in his Masnud, Hadith no. 19774.

http://www.soundvision.com/info/hajj/lastsermon.asp

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I meant what is the authenticity of "Muhammad's Last Sermon". Is it Hadith, I can't find it in the Bukhari hadith at all.

Regards,
Scott

it is Hadith Sahih Mutawatir which has the highest level of authenticity in the hadith. It means so many people have heard this hadith that it is impossible to say it is unauthentic.

 

[Popeyesays]

Isn't Musnad hadith considered by some scholars to have hadith of mixed text and broken chain, i.e. 'fabricated' (not as in a lie, but as in combining texts and misattributing chains of authenticity)?

Therefore the most complete hadith of the last sermon if of lesser authenticity than the fragments that are found in Bukhari Hadith.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

Isn't Musnad hadith considered by some scholars to have hadith of mixed text and broken chain, i.e. 'fabricated' (not as in a lie, but as in combining texts and misattributing chains of authenticity)?

Nope, I'll give you the details.

2- Hadith-i musnad: Those hadiths that are given together with the name of the Sahabi "radi-Allahu ta'ala anhum ajmain' who ascribes them to Rasulullah "sall-Allahu alaihi wa sallam'. Musnad hadiths are either muttasil or munqati':

3- Hadith-i musnad-i muttasil: Those hadiths that are ascribed to Rasulullah "sall-Allahu alaihi wa sallam' by an unbroken chain of transmitters; that is, not one of their transmitters is lacking.
4- Hadith-i musnad-i munqati': Those hadiths whose one or more transmitters, except the Sahabi "radi-Allahu ta'ala anhum ajmain, are not recorded.

Source: http://www.hizmetbooks.org/Endless_Bliss_Second_Fascicle/bliss2-6.htm