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The prophethood of Mohammad???

NoahideHiker

Religious Headbanger
maro said:
what i understand is that, after a year of studying the basics of your christian beliefs,
your Faith was completely destroyed , and then you decided to leave christianity ,to embrace your new monotheistic religion ,

so , you are telling me that we have to use our minds ,educate our selves , and revise our inherited beliefs to find the correct path ,

but when i have told you before that there must be a true path for us to find , you disagreed with me ,
and said that every path is a true path ,as long as we can have a relation with God

i am sorry , but this seem a little confusing to me
No, I spent a year in study and prayer and left christianity with my faith stronger than ever. Because in that year I had drawn closer to G-d than I was before. It was a hard year and it nearly destroyed my faith.

As for a true path; I stated there was nothing in the Torah/Tanach that eluded to a single true religion in the time to come that everyone would follow. I said that every path has some truth in it and that G-d honors all attempts to reach out to Him.

Here is an analogy. Say we are all conduits for the light of G-d. Now, would you say that each one of us has the capacity to carry the full voltage of G-d's light? Of course not. Some have more knowledge and faith than others and are able to carry a higher current. If we tried to run G-d's full voltage through someone who does not have the capacity to carry that much voltage the wire will simply burn out and be destroyed.

So G-d allows us to be at differing voltage capacities according to where we are faith wise.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
I see and agree with your point Noachide. I prefer to think of it as ONE path with different Lightposts along the way. Some cluster at a single light fearing there will be no more to guide them and some have the faith to go onward, trusting God to light the path again.

Regards,
Scott
 

NoahideHiker

Religious Headbanger
Popeyesays said:
I see and agree with your point Noachide. I prefer to think of it as ONE path with different Lightposts along the way. Some cluster at a single light fearing there will be no more to guide them and some have the faith to go onward, trusting God to light the path again.

Regards,
Scott

I rarely tell someone their path is wrong because that would mean I'm saying mine is right. I guess what I mean is that all seekers are right.
 

maro

muslimah
NoahideHiker said:
No, I spent a year in study and prayer and left christianity with my faith stronger than ever. Because in that year I had drawn closer to G-d than I was before. It was a hard year and it nearly destroyed my faith.

As for a true path; I stated there was nothing in the Torah/Tanach that eluded to a single true religion in the time to come that everyone would follow. I said that every path has some truth in it and that G-d honors all attempts to reach out to Him.

Here is an analogy. Say we are all conduits for the light of G-d. Now, would you say that each one of us has the capacity to carry the full voltage of G-d's light? Of course not. Some have more knowledge and faith than others and are able to carry a higher current. If we tried to run G-d's full voltage through someone who does not have the capacity to carry that much voltage the wire will simply burn out and be destroyed.

So G-d allows us to be at differing voltage capacities according to where we are faith wise.

yes , i got your idea now , about the capacity to carry the volt
but i think i still disagree
peace be with you
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
NoahideHiker said:
I rarely tell someone their path is wrong because that would mean I'm saying mine is right. I guess what I mean is that all seekers are right.

You ought to read The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys written by Baha`u'llah in answer to a request from the Sufi school in Kurdistan. You would find a lot of support for your ideas.

Regards,
Scott
 

NoahideHiker

Religious Headbanger
Popeyesays said:
You ought to read The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys written by Baha`u'llah in answer to a request from the Sufi school in Kurdistan. You would find a lot of support for your ideas.

Regards,
Scott

Thanks I'll have to look into it. I was thinking today that G-d and religion is a lot like math. The truth/answer/G-d is, say, 35. One religion may say 25+10=35. Another may say 5x7=35. And still another may say that 55-20=35. The answer never changes and each way of reaching 35 is true. It's just that each one used a different way of reaching 35.
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Popeyesays said:
I do not believe Muhammad EVER said He would be the LAST Prophet and there would be no more revelation to man. Muhammad said He was the "Seal" of the Prophets. This means He was the authenticator of all the Prophets, not the last. His word certified all the Prophets before Him--like an ornament or the wax seal of authority.
Actually it is stated in the Quran that Muhammed was the Seal. But it is stated in some hadith of the Messenger that he is the last of the Messengers. One is in Sahih muslim in the Book of Prayers where the messenger states he is the last. Do you have Sahih Muslim or access to it.

Regardless of what the ullamah might say.
You cannot do this in Islam, we respect the opinions of the true ullamah and fuqahah
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Mujahid Mohammed said:
Actually it is stated in the Quran that Muhammed was the Seal. But it is stated in some hadith of the Messenger that he is the last of the Messengers. One is in Sahih muslim in the Book of Prayers where the messenger states he is the last. Do you have Sahih Muslim or access to it.

You cannot do this in Islam, we respect the opinions of the true ullamah and fuqahah

In the Baha`i writings the clergy has been stripped of authority BECAUSE the clergy is largely responsible for persecuting a new Messenger (the Sanhedrin and Jesus, for one instance).

In Persia at the time of the Bab and Baha`u'llah the clergy were concerned with years of study to master Arabic. The status of the levels ulemah seems to have been based on who had the largest turban or could utter the most incomrehensible and fulsome words in Arabic, the language that few of the masses could much understand. The ulemah based their status on the fact that they believed the political authorities of the time to be far beneath them in their level of acquired knowledge.

Adib Taherzadeh makes the following observation from The Revelation of Vaha`u'llah, volume 1:

"Although in this society it was the government officials who wielded authority, nevertheless, the all-powerful clergy looked down upon such men as inferior beings, unworthy to enter with them into the realms of knowledge and learning. Yet Bahá'u'lláh, on several occasions, expounded with simplicity and eloquence abstruse and mysterious traditions of Islam in the presence of divines, who were astonished at the depth of His knowledge and the profundity of His utterance.
The revelation of the Word of God has never been dependent on acquired knowledge. The Bearers of the Message of God in most cases were devoid of learning. Moses and Christ were not learned men. Muhammad was not educated, but when Divine Revelation came to Him, He uttered the words of God. Sometimes His utterances would be recorded on the spot by one of His disciples and sometimes the words would be memorized and recorded later. The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh had an elementary education, yet their knowledge, which was derived from God, was innate and encompassed the whole of mankind.
In one of His Tablets known as the Lawh-i-Hikmat (Tablet of Wisdom), which contains some of His noblest counsels and 21 exhortations concerning individual conduct, Bahá'u'lláh, in the course of expounding some of the basic beliefs of certain philosophers of ancient Greece, stated that He had entered no school and acquired no knowledge from men. Yet the knowledge of all that is, He asserted, was bestowed upon Him by the Almighty and recorded in the tablet of His heart, while His tongue was the one instrument capable of translating it into words.
In another Tablet Bahá'u'lláh revealed the source of His knowledge and the divine origin of His Mission in these words:
O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My
couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted
over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been.
This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty
and All-Knowing.... This is but a leaf which the winds of
the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have
stirred.(1)
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 1, p. 20)

The clergy of His time was so corrupted, that Baha`u'llah stripped them of their authority. There is no clergy in the Baha`i Faith.

Regards,
Scott
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Popeyesays said:
In the Baha`i writings the clergy has been stripped of authority BECAUSE the clergy is largely responsible for persecuting a new Messenger (the Sanhedrin and Jesus, for one instance).

In Persia at the time of the Bab and Baha`u'llah the clergy were concerned with years of study to master Arabic. The status of the levels ulemah seems to have been based on who had the largest turban or could utter the most incomrehensible and fulsome words in Arabic, the language that few of the masses could much understand. The ulemah based their status on the fact that they believed the political authorities of the time to be far beneath them in their level of acquired knowledge.

Adib Taherzadeh makes the following observation from The Revelation of Vaha`u'llah, volume 1:

"Although in this society it was the government officials who wielded authority, nevertheless, the all-powerful clergy looked down upon such men as inferior beings, unworthy to enter with them into the realms of knowledge and learning. Yet Bahá'u'lláh, on several occasions, expounded with simplicity and eloquence abstruse and mysterious traditions of Islam in the presence of divines, who were astonished at the depth of His knowledge and the profundity of His utterance.
The revelation of the Word of God has never been dependent on acquired knowledge. The Bearers of the Message of God in most cases were devoid of learning. Moses and Christ were not learned men. Muhammad was not educated, but when Divine Revelation came to Him, He uttered the words of God. Sometimes His utterances would be recorded on the spot by one of His disciples and sometimes the words would be memorized and recorded later. The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh had an elementary education, yet their knowledge, which was derived from God, was innate and encompassed the whole of mankind.
In one of His Tablets known as the Lawh-i-Hikmat (Tablet of Wisdom), which contains some of His noblest counsels and 21 exhortations concerning individual conduct, Bahá'u'lláh, in the course of expounding some of the basic beliefs of certain philosophers of ancient Greece, stated that He had entered no school and acquired no knowledge from men. Yet the knowledge of all that is, He asserted, was bestowed upon Him by the Almighty and recorded in the tablet of His heart, while His tongue was the one instrument capable of translating it into words.
In another Tablet Bahá'u'lláh revealed the source of His knowledge and the divine origin of His Mission in these words:
O King! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My
couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted
over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been.
This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty
and All-Knowing.... This is but a leaf which the winds of
the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have
stirred.(1)
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 1, p. 20)

The clergy of His time was so corrupted, that Baha`u'llah stripped them of their authority. There is no clergy in the Baha`i Faith.

Regards,
Scott
but we were talking about a statement of the Messenger of Islam not the Baha'i faith. This is something that is in your doctrines of faith, not ours. These things are bidah and kufr for those who follow Islam. So what is this stuffs relevancy to what we have as laws.

And when you say the clergy of His time who are you speaking about. Is it Baha'ullah the reason I ask is I do not understand what this has to do with Islam
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Hadith 1062 and 1067 purportedly record the same incident yet the statements are not consistent:

"Book 004, Number 1062:
Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon hlmg) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me."

"Book 004, Number 1067:
Hammam b. Munabbih reported: That is what Abu Huraira reported to us from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he narrated (some) ahadith one of which is that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies) and I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning."

So, I am puzzled. Which account is correct?

Regards,
Scott
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Popeyesays said:
Hadith 1062 and 1067 purportedly record the same incident yet the statements are not consistent:

"Book 004, Number 1062:
Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon hlmg) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me."
"Book 004, Number 1067:
Hammam b. Munabbih reported: That is what Abu Huraira reported to us from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he narrated (some) ahadith one of which is that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies) and I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning."

So, I am puzzled. Which account is correct?

Regards,
Scott
They are both correct and consistent because there is no variance in statements one just gives more details then another. Also this is two different hadiths one narrated from one companion the other a different one. So you have two seperate hadiths both of them Sahih. Because it is Sahih you do not have to question which is correct.

Sahih is a level of hadith with conditions which are there is no break in the Isnad or chain of narrators of the hadith, no irregularity in speech, and the narrators are thiqah or higher. Very trustworthy and there memory of hadith is perfect. This one of the qualifications of a hadith to be sahih which is the authentic. The highest of sahih being Sahih Mutawattir. If you are even accused of lying or any wrong doing your hadith is not accepted.

another example of this are some of the hadith in the book of trials. Where he talks about the signs. And many others.

I hope this helps.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Putting aside that they are both attributed to Abu Huraira, but make different statements. "Closing the circle" is an interesting metaphor. A circle by definition is an infinite number of points all equidistant from the center. In my opinion each point on the circle is a manifestation of God, and the center is God, the Primal Cause. A circle does not have a beginning nor an end. The first Prophet of God closed the circle, each Prophet after Him closed the circle and each Prophet to come closes the circle, and the will of God is that there be no beginning nor end to Revelation.

Regards,
Scott
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Popeyesays said:
Putting aside that they are both attributed to Abu Huraira, but make different statements. "Closing the circle" is an interesting metaphor. A circle by definition is an infinite number of points all equidistant from the center. In my opinion each point on the circle is a manifestation of God, and the center is God, the Primal Cause. A circle does not have a beginning nor an end. The first Prophet of God closed the circle, each Prophet after Him closed the circle and each Prophet to come closes the circle, and the will of God is that there be no beginning nor end to Revelation.

Regards,
Scott
Not sure what you mean, but yes both hadith are from Abu Huraira but he narrated two different hadith to different people. the chains are different. One he gave all 6 examples, the other group he mentioned two. where is the inconsistency? How is it different? they were both said by the Messenger. I am not sure why you misunderstand.

What does closing the circle have to do with this hadith? Life is not a circle for it eventually ends. That is why they call it the line of prophethood. It is a line it began with Adam and ended with Muhammed in our religion, not sure what you guys do but it is not a circle.

And in Islam there is a beginning and end to revelation. that may be a bahai concept but it is not Islamic. Is the closing the circle concept something from your belief?
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
In revelation the circle is a "wheel" it is symbolic of the Cycle, cycles end, but the circle does not.

Baha`u'llah is the first of a New Cycle of Prophets, the Bab ended the Adamic Cycle, now we are in the Baha`i Cycle. In due time that cycle will finish and a new one start. We also believe that the Day of Ressurection is the Advent of a New Apostle of God. The judgement is between the spiritually living and the spiritually dead. The universe does not end physically.

The best Hadith is the Qur'an, The Hadiths are guidance not scripture. In essence the Hadith have no more authority than most muslims would grant the Injeel, since the Injeel is based on remembrance and so is Hadith.

If the line of Prophets is closed, who is the Mah'di? How will one believer determine a true Mah'di from the Dajjal? He has to make a decision, so did I.

Regards,
Scott
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Popeyesays said:
In revelation the circle is a "wheel" it is symbolic of the Cycle, cycles end, but the circle does not.

Baha`u'llah is the first of a New Cycle of Prophets, the Bab ended the Adamic Cycle, now we are in the Baha`i Cycle. In due time that cycle will finish and a new one start. We also believe that the Day of Ressurection is the Advent of a New Apostle of God. The judgement is between the spiritually living and the spiritually dead. The universe does not end physically.
Sooo... it is a Bahai' concept?

The best Hadith is the Qur'an, The Hadiths are guidance not scripture.
that is a contradiction if the Quran is hadith then hadith would have to be scripture.
In essence the Hadith have no more authority than most muslims would grant the Injeel, since the Injeel is based on remembrance and so is Hadith.
That is not true Scott. Hadith does have authority in the religion. for we would not know certain things without it. Like how to perform Hajj.
The Authority and Importance of the Sunnah - Religious Education
And the Injeel is an authority in our religion however it does not exist anymore for our Christian brothers have changed the Injeel into their own creation. Which is still to this day still being revised and changed.

If the line of Prophets is closed, who is the Mah'di?
He is a descendant of Muhammed and the last Khalifah. He is not a prophet but the Promised leader of the Muslims who will help Jesus establish Islam in the world.

How will one believer determine a true Mah'di from the Dajjal?
From the descriptions in the authentic hadith.

He has to make a decision, so did I.

Regards,
Scott
?, Who does.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
"that is a contradiction if the Quran is hadith then hadith would have to be scripture."
Depends upon how much you must defend hadith.

Fortunately, Baha`i's don't have to wonder about authenticity of Baha`u'llah's words, it's ALL His own words, and we do not rely upon and are, in fact, told NOT to rely on oral tradition which may be mistaken or misunderstood.

Regards,
Scott
 

Mujahid Mohammed

Well-Known Member
Popeyesays said:
"that is a contradiction if the Quran is hadith then hadith would have to be scripture."
Depends upon how much you must defend hadith.
Hadith is only scripture if can be validated in authenticity, and we do not have to defend it for we know what level of authenticity we have for each of them.

Fortunately, Baha`i's don't have to wonder about authenticity of Baha`u'llah's words, it's ALL His own words, and we do not rely upon and are, in fact, told NOT to rely on oral tradition which may be mistaken or misunderstood.

Regards,
Scott
Same for the Quran it is all Allah we do not question anything of the Quran, it is the word of the Creotor of the Universe and is the ultimate source for our religion

Now the Hadiths are not misunderstood to us we understand them it is just people without knowledge who misunderstand, misinterpret the hadiths of the Messneger as they do many things in our religion. And they are to further explain to us the fundamental meanings of the Quran for the Messenger was the living embodiment of a walking Quran. so we have the written book and the living representation of it to follow and we do that by the sunnah. The scholars in the time of the Messenger and the 2 successful generations after that have already given us the level. they did all the work already for us.

Hadith can defend itself. We have already derived what is good and what is false. This is how we got the complete system of life which Islam brings. We had someone show us how to do it.

Major things like surgery you can't just do surgery from reading a book. You have to have someone show you how to do it. You have to have someone put the teachings of the book in the proper context so you can perform it correctly.

People always do things better with a teacher, and since we are commanded to obey Allah and submit to His complete religion by accepting His as the only one to worship and Muhammed is His last and Final Messenger who by the will of Allah is the perfect example of someone who follows the truth of Allah, by being just, humble, honest, compassionate, forgiving, above all the best example of a human being ever.

Then we are to do as he did.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
"People always do things better with a teacher, and since we are commanded to obey Allah and submit to His complete religion by accepting His as the only one to worship and Muhammed is His last and Final Messenger who by the will of Allah is the perfect example of someone who follows the truth of Allah, by being just, humble, honest, compassionate, forgiving, above all the best example of a human being ever. "

I can agree with much of this, for us we have the station of Abdu'l Baha as defined by Baha`u'llah as 'The Perfect Exemplar'. In a sense it is Abdu'l Baha who is the source of Baha`i 'hadith', though his interpretations are declared perfect by Baha`u'llah.

I would point out that the Sanhedrin persecuted Christ for just the reason you shut out the possibility of further Apostles of God. Using the 'perfect mullah' as interpreter of the meaning of Muhammed's words. Christ was not sufficiently auhoritative to be the Messiah, therefore He was ignored. To Islam, the Bab and Baha`u'llah are the subject of persecution in the same tradition.

Regards,
Scott
 
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