The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[Porque77]

You are quoting a verse out of context and without any understanding of context.

The prophet Jeremiah says that God's law was changed, and the context does not contradict that statement. And not only the prophet Jeremiah says that God's law had been changed by the scribes. The prophet Isaiah also said that God's commandments were changed:

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

 

[Makaranda]

Reading through this thread was like driving nails into my brain. I really do feel for the Jewish folk who have to put up with the likes of Porque and their excruciatingly autistic selective butchery of the Tanakh to serve non-Jewish (and demonstrably stupid) ideology and agendas. Your patience is admirable.

 

[Porque77]

Reading through this thread was like driving nails into my brain. I really do feel for the Jewish folk who have to put up with the likes of Porque and their excruciatingly autistic selective butchery of the Tanakh to serve non-Jewish (and demonstrably stupid) ideology and agendas. Your patience is admirable.

Patience of the Jews? Did they have patience with Jesus Christ? Do not they were the ones who ordered that Jesus be crucified?

The only law of God is what Jesus teaches us in the Gospel. And that is what many Jews never understood and many don't understand still.

 

[RabbiO]

Patience of the Jews? Did they have patience with Jesus Christ? Do not they were the ones who ordered that Jesus be crucified?

The only law of God is what Jesus teaches us in the Gospel. And that is what many Jews never understood and many don't understand still.

I know that i said I would not respond to any of your posts, but wow, the second post in just a couple of weeks where some has felt the need to accuse Jews of deicide, of being "Christ killers" could not be allowed to pass without comment.

Lest I say something that might cross the line in terms of being offensive and against the TOS, let me simply say.

 

[Levite]

Patience of the Jews? Did they have patience with Jesus Christ? Do not they were the ones who ordered that Jesus be crucified?

The only law of God is what Jesus teaches us in the Gospel. And that is what many Jews never understood and many don't understand still.

If I facepalmed any harder at this, I'd push my forehead out the back of my head.

ZOMG....

 

[metis]

Patience of the Jews? Did they have patience with Jesus Christ? Do not they were the ones who ordered that Jesus be crucified?

The only law of God is what Jesus teaches us in the Gospel. And that is what many Jews never understood and many don't understand still.

Jews did not crucify Jesus-- the Romans did. Secondly, to claim that somehow we don't understand the Law but you do is simply arrogance on steroids. No one fully understands the Law, but those who really ignore and then reject much of the Law, as you do, simply cannot logically be judges of the Law. It reminds me of so many that reject evolution but have no understanding of the science behind it.

 

[Porque77]

I know that i said I would not respond to any of your posts, but wow, the second post in just a couple of weeks where some has felt the need to accuse Jews of deicide, of being "Christ killers".....

If I facepalmed any harder at this, I'd push my forehead out the back of my head.

Jews did not crucify Jesus-- the Romans did.

Hello friends. I do not accuse anyone of anything. Do not they were the jews who ordered that Jesus be crucified? The scriptures are what say that the jews ordered that Jesus be crucified. Then I remember what the scriptures tell us:

" And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day. But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God". (John 5: 16-18)

" Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them. But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go. And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed. And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required. And he released unto them him that for sedition and murder was cast into prison, whom they had desired; but he delivered Jesus to their will". (Luke 23:20-25)

"And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses". (Acts 3:12-15)

No one fully understands the Law, but those who really ignore and then reject much of the Law, as you do, simply cannot logically be judges of the Law.

Christians who are faithful to the Gospel are the true christians, and only follow Christ's commandments written in the Gospel.

Many Old Testament laws already passed because they were just precepts of men, and so Jesus abolished them.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The prophet Jeremiah says that God's law was changed, and the context does not contradict that statement. And not only the prophet Jeremiah says that God's law had been changed by the scribes. The prophet Isaiah also said that God's commandments were changed:

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

You believe Jesus? Jesus affirms the law is unchanged: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Mat 5:18)

The tragedy, Porque#, is that you have inherited arguments from Jew haters rather than from scripture. Your own beliefs seem grounded in Luther's bitterest moments, Calvin's and various others, yet you want to point fingers about altering scripture. You presume no one can bear to obey the laws, but this is merely the clattering of Martin Luther and perverted interpretation of Paul. You claim Jesus abolishes many laws, but he doesn't. You claim that Jews say "Hate your enemy," but you fail to produce proof. (Posts 5 and 181) You also ignored Shermana's responses to you which contained information you needed. You claim to be self taught "I have studied the...." You want to teach, but you won't listen or respect what other people say unless they agree with you first. How will you learn anything true?

 

[metis]

You believe Jesus? Jesus affirms the law is unchanged: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Mat 5:18)

The tragedy, Porque#, is that you have inherited arguments from Jew haters rather than from scripture. Your own beliefs seem grounded in Luther's bitterest moments, Calvin's and various others, yet you want to point fingers about altering scripture. You presume no one can bear to obey the laws, but this is merely the clattering of Martin Luther and perverted interpretation of Paul. You claim Jesus abolishes many laws, but he doesn't. You claim that Jews say "Hate your enemy," but you fail to produce proof. (Posts 5 and 181) You also ignored Shermana's responses to you which contained information you needed. You claim to be self taught "I have studied the...." You want to teach, but you won't listen or respect what other people say unless they agree with you first. How will you learn anything true?

:clap

 

[Muffled]

I know that i said I would not respond to any of your posts, but wow, the second post in just a couple of weeks where some has felt the need to accuse Jews of deicide, of being "Christ killers" could not be allowed to pass without comment.

Lest I say something that might cross the line in terms of being offensive and against the TOS, let me simply say.

That may not suffice. What I believe is missing is the fact that the early church was formed by Jews and only a few were sold out to the Romans to commit deicide.

I believe the problem for adherents of Judaism today is their inablity to recognize God and perhaps an acceptance that Jesus was a blasphemer for saying He is God and therefore worthy of death.

 

[Flankerl]

Do not they were the jews who ordered that Jesus be crucified?

Christian Chrash Course on Roman History.

- 37 before common era: Judea becomes a client Kingdom of the Roman Republic
- as its custom client Kingdoms have more authority then their master, true story!
- ~ 30 common era: because the Jews are obviously the rulers of the Roman Republic they actually have power over Roman soldiers and even the Prefect
- which is why the Jews had the power to order the Roman Prefect around



True story.

I believe the problem for adherents of Judaism today is their inablity to recognize God

"Let me tell you about your Religion"

 

[Porque77]

You claim Jesus abolishes many laws, but he doesn't.

The teachings of the Gospel disagree with you, because the Gospel teaches us that Jesus Christ abolished many laws of the Old Testament. Then I remember some of those laws abolished by Jesus Christ:

Jesus abolished many commandments of the Old Testament because they were not God's Law, because Jesus did not come to abolish the Law of God. The Gospel says:

"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. Nevertheless I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of prostitution, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced, commits adultery" (Matthew 5:...)

The jews of that time wrote in the law of the Old Testament that could separated from women for many reasons when they tired of them, but Jesus abolished these commandments. These commandments were written into the Old Testament and Jesus Christ abolished them.

"Again you have heard that it was said by them of old not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord. Nevertheless I tell you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for is the footstool of his feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because you can not do a single white or black hair. But let your ' Yes, yes, no, no, because what is more than these cometh of evil" (Matthew 5:...)

The Jews were accustomed to swear in many cases, and so wrote it in the laws of the Old Testament... The Lord abolished these precepts of the oaths.

The law of retaliation ("Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth") ABOLISHED BY JESUS CHRIST

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also, and whosoever want to get to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your coat also, and whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away" (Matthew 5:...)

The Jews were in the habit of applying the talionis law (law of revenge) in their judgments (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn... and so on.), And so they wrote it in the laws of the old Testament (Exodus 21: 24-25). The Lord abolished this law of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" because it was a law that did not included forgiveness or mercy, then weren't God's Law, because what God likes is the mercy.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.... " (Matthew 5...)

The Jews, often beheaded or hanged his enemies, and not only to them, but then, as says the laws of the Old Testament, entered the conquered peoples and in many cases children and women were slaughtered... Jesus Christ abolished these Old Testament laws and commands us to love our enemies.

Other Old Testament laws abolished by Jesus Christ:

"If a man commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be dead". (Leviticus 20: 10)

"And the daughter of any priest, if she fornicate, dishonor his father; she shall be burnt with fire" (Leviticus 21: 9

That Is not what Jesus did with the adulterous woman in the Gospel Example:

"And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst, they say unto him, Teacher, this woman hath been taken in adultery, in the very act. Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such: what then sayest thou of her? And this they said, trying him, that they might have whereof to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground.

But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. And they, when they heard it, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst. And Jesus lifted up himself, and said unto her, Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee? And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more. Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life". (Juan 8: 3-12)

With this teaching, Jesus abolished the Old Testament commandments that ordered kill people for various reasons. So far we have collected some examples of Old Testament commandments that Jesus abolished, but the argument that Jesus had with the Jews because of the law, is much broader and at this discussion is devoted a large part of the Gospel. Jesus taught us the true law of God.

You claim that Jews say "Hate your enemy," but you fail to produce proof.

I remind you again that the Jews, often beheaded or hanged his enemies, and not only to them, but then, as says the laws of the Old Testament, entered the conquered peoples and in many cases children and women were slaughtered... Jesus Christ commands us to love our enemies. Therefore, Jesus abolished those laws of the Jews that commanded kill enemies.

 

[Brickjectivity]

many religions to tell us that Jesus Christ came not to abolish the commandments of the Old Testament, but that is a mistake because these gospel words do not refer to the law of the Old Testament

This I completely disagree with. You keep repeating it, but its not helping.

, because Jesus Christ abolished many commandments of the Old Testament, as we see in Matthew 5: 21-48 and other parts of the Gospel.

Its not that way. To begin with Jesus doesn't overturn the law of divorce or even reveal new teaching about it. You just don't understand what the law actually is about it seems to me. Divorce isn't ideal, but it is cruel to prevent people from divorcing today just as it was in his time. Sometimes the marriage is not working, such as when the husband doesn't fulfill his duties. Jesus discussion of divorce implies, by the way, that he takes the laws of Moses individually very seriously. It is only you who insist that his summary description of the law is an abolishment, but an abolishment is itself impossible and would represent a betrayal.

Another example you mistakenly bring up about 'Eye for eye' is a commentary upon workers and alludes to multiple sections including Exodus 21:26 about compensating someone who has lost their eye doing work. In Torah when a person leaves employment they must be paid a retirement. In addition if they are injured permanently, that is if they lose an eye etc, you must compensate them as if it were your own eye giving them their retirement early. (How much would you pay for your eye?) This is what it means by the 'Spirit' of the law versus the 'Letter'. If you only read the letters, then you get crazy ideas about people knocking each other's teeth out. The spirit is the actual application of how the laws are applied (retirement for workers). In this case they are merciful laws towards employees, and the entire Jewish system of legal compensation in civil cases concerning employment is probably built around this central corps. Why would you ever want them to be abolished?

Looking at your other examples I have similar objections -- that you have read the letter of the law but have not understood its interpretation. That is why you could even think that Jesus would ever abolish it. He might disagree about how it should be carried out or object to someone's interpretation.

 

[metis]

That may not suffice. What I believe is missing is the fact that the early church was formed by Jews and only a few were sold out to the Romans to commit deicide.

I believe the problem for adherents of Judaism today is their inablity to recognize God and perhaps an acceptance that Jesus was a blasphemer for saying He is God and therefore worthy of death.

First of all, "deicide" would involve killing God, so exactly how does that work since God therefore must be dead according to this approach? Secondly, Jesus on numerous occasions points out differences between he and God, further evidence from the gospels themselves that Jesus could not possibly be God.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Hello friends. I do not accuse anyone of anything. Do not they were the jews who ordered that Jesus be crucified? The scriptures are what say that the jews ordered that Jesus be crucified. Then I remember what the scriptures tell us:

The scriptures are mistaken. Please don't take them too seriously.

 

[Porque77]

Its not that way. To begin with Jesus doesn't overturn the law of divorce or even reveal new teaching about it.

You are completely wrong, because Jesus abolished the law that allowed divorce to the Jews. Jesus said that man not separate from women except in case of prostitution. So was annulled by Jesus the law that allowed that the men divorce from women for any reason.

Another example you mistakenly bring up about 'Eye for eye' is a commentary upon workers and alludes to multiple sections including Exodus 21:26

"An eye for an eye" is not a comment on the workers, it is a law of punishment written in the Old Testament that provides no forgiveness or mercy.

"An eye for an eye" is contrary to the commandments merciful that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel law.

These laws and many others of the Old Testament were abolished by Jesus Christ.

 

[Porque77]

Jesus on numerous occasions points out differences between he and God, further evidence from the gospels themselves that Jesus could not possibly be God.

Jesus tells us: "I am the way the truth and the life" ... This alone is God

 

[Brickjectivity]

You are completely wrong, because Jesus abolished the law that allowed divorce to the Jews. Jesus said that man not separate from women except in case of prostitution. So was annulled by Jesus the law that allowed that the men divorce from women for any reason.

No, no, no! Jesus upheld the law of divorce and showed that he understood why it was provided!

"An eye for an eye" is not a comment on the workers, it is a law of punishment written in the Old Testament that provides no forgiveness or mercy.

"An eye for an eye" is contrary to the commandments merciful that Jesus Christ teaches us in the Gospel law.

These laws and many others of the Old Testament were abolished by Jesus Christ.

They must have had a serious problem, what with millions of Hebrews poking each other's eyes out. Whewee! That's a lot of eyeballs! "We totally needed a law about eyeballs, because we like to poke each other in the eye!" "Hey, you just cut off my toe! Now I get to cut your toe off! Hold still!" Man, what a bunch of country hicks, huh? Naturally they wouldn't have had a set of laws that actually made any sense, just as you say.

 

[metis]

Jesus tells us: "I am the way the truth and the life" ... This alone is God

That is not the same as saying that he's God.

 

[Porque77]

No, no, no! Jesus upheld the law of divorce and showed that he understood why it was provided!

You are completely wrong. No one should divorce (take away the mother of his children) when isn't by cause of prostitution. So Jesus says to you:

"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of prostitution, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced, commits adultery" (Matthew 5:...)