The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW

[CMike]

Do do do do, do do do do...

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THE TWILIGHT ZONE THEME - YouTube

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think there is a distinction here between 'responsibility' and 'fault'. I agree with you, there is much to criticize about Christians and their actions, but placing 'blame' where it doesn't belong is not going to help anything, imo.

I think a common day of lament over past wrongs and disagreements would go a long way. I mean a yearly or other regular time to express sorrow about things that have happened that shouldn't have happened.

 

[Desert Snake]

I think a common day of lament over past wrongs and disagreements would go a long way. I mean a yearly or other regular time to express sorrow about things that have happened that shouldn't have happened.

I disagree, this basically says that all Xians are responsible for say the Inquisition or something, it just serves no purpose.
Granted I don't attend/belong to a church or denomination, but just on principle that idea seems wrong.
I also think you cant really 'unite' the churches at this point, the differences are and have always been too great. That doesn't mean everything has to be contentious, but unity....no, doesn't make sense.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I disagree, this basically says that all Xians are responsible for say the Inquisition or something, it just serves no purpose.
Granted I don't attend/belong to a church or denomination, but just on principle that idea seems wrong.
I also think you cant really 'unite' the churches at this point, the differences are and have always been too great. That doesn't mean everything has to be contentious, but unity....no, doesn't make sense.

A very interesting and honest reply as usual.

 

[Prophet]

This is like posting in the Twilight Zone.

Where people say crazy things and deny their own words days later? Good thing this is a written forum so that they can't get away with it.

 

[CMike]

Where people say crazy things and deny their own words days later? Good thing this is a written forum so that they can't get away with it.

pot kettle

 

[Porque77]

Maybe the earliest texts YOU have are in Greek, ours are in Hebrew and are far older than greek tanslations.

That you do not believe yourself, because all biblical scholars know there is no previous Hebrew texts the Greek texts. Everything was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

The Old Testament that Christians have is the oldest survivor of the scriptures.

 

[Porque77]

Deuterenomy 13
1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.

Jewish scribes ignored those words, because they changed the law and the commandments of God, as the prophets said:

"...but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD. "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie". (Jeremiah 8:7-8)

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary, they have falsified the law". (Zephaniah 3:4)

" My covenant was with him of life and peace........ The law of truth was in his mouth....... But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts" (Malachi 2:5-8)

And Jesus Christ, remembering the words of the prophet Isaiah, also told the scribes and Pharisees who were teaching the commandments of men:

"Hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
This people honors me with their lips;
But their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me,
Teaching for doctrines commandments of men" (Matthew 15.7-9

This is what happened, what the prophets tell us: The God's law was changed by the scribes. For this reason, the Old Testament's law is different to the commandments of Jesus Christ.

 

[Porque77]

Actually, you're the one who isn't listening to what the prophets said, first because your translations are faulty, and second, because you have removed quotes from out of their context.

The scribes changed the law and the commandments of God.

Nothing must be contrary the Gospel, but many Old Testament laws are contrary to what the Gospel commands us.

All that is contrary to the Gospel is because it is not commandment of God ...

True God's Law tells us so:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7: 12)

Jesus teaches to a rich man, the precepts of the Law

"And behold, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? One there is who is good: but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? And Jesus said, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I observed: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions" (Matthew 19: 16-22

These are the commandments of the Gospel, which are very different to the commandments of the Old Testament, for all the commandments of the Gospel are merciful, but many commandments of the Old Testament commanded death sentences, wars and slavery. And those commandments weren't really God's Law.

 

[Porque77]

The Hebrew texts predated the Greek Septuagint, the latter was translated from the Hebrew and not the other way around, and it's the Septuagint that has some errors of translation found within. Anyone should know that when one translates from one language to another, there's almost always going to something "lost in translation".

The Hebrews were the oldest texts before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. But after the destruction nothing was left, and the Hebrews made ​​their translations of Greek texts preserved by Christians.

This is the story of the Greek texts, but it looks now that you bring a different "story".

 

[Slapstick]

Dear friends, this is what happened, what the prophets tell us: The God's law was changed by the scribes. The Old Testament's law is different to the commandments of Jesus Christ.
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I don't think very highly of prophets. Can you name one that wasn't a sinner or was imperfect?

 

[Porque77]

I don't think very highly of prophets. Can you name one that wasn't a sinner or was imperfect?

Dear friend that is another matter ... Thank you ...

 

[CMike]

That you do not believe yourself, because all biblical scholars know there is no previous Hebrew texts the Greek texts. Everything was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

The Old Testament that Christians have is the oldest survivor of the scriptures.

You are extremely confused.

According to you first comes the christian bible then the jewish prophets, then the five books of Moses.

You got it backwards.

First came the five books of moses, and the oral law, then came the prophets, then came the christian bible.

The scribes changing the law would refer to people like the christians, who tried to change jewish law for themselves. It cautions the jews to look out for people who try and do this.

 

[metis]

The Hebrews were the oldest texts before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. But after the destruction nothing was left, and the Hebrews made ​​their translations of Greek texts preserved by Christians.

This is the story of the Greek texts, but it looks now that you bring a different "story".

You really are believing someone's fabrication as the Hebrew text is not based off the Greek. Start Googling this if you doubt me.

 

[dantech]

The Hebrews were the oldest texts before the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. But after the destruction nothing was left, and the Hebrews made ​​their translations of Greek texts preserved by Christians.

This is the story of the Greek texts, but it looks now that you bring a different "story".

By that reasoning, If we could prove to you that our scripture isn't based off greek text, you will admit that the NT is wrong, and illogical?

 

[Porque77]

By that reasoning, If we could prove to you that our scripture isn't based off greek text, you will admit that the NT is wrong, and illogical?

Dear friend, the Hebrew scriptures were first. After were the Greek scriptures. But in the year 70 after Christ, the Hebrew scriptures were destroyed by the Romans.

The Christians had the Scriptures of the Old Testament written in Greek, and was what was left after the destuccion of Temple.

After centuries, in the Middle Ages, the Jews wanted to rebuild the canon (law), and then took the Christian scriptures written in Greek in order to rebuild the Old Testament canon.

The Law that now have we Christians, is the law of the Gospel, the only real, logical and correct Law. Laws written in the Old Testament that are different than the law of the Gospel, already passed because they wasn't the true God's Law.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Fact: the Hebrew Tanach was preserved. Also preserved were the two Talmud versions, one from Jerusalem and one from Babylon.

Incidentally the Apostle Paul trusts the preservation by the Jews of both the Tanach and their Oral Torah. Romans 3:2 "...the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God." This he said is one of the advantages of being a circumcised Jew, that these words are in your care. If we listen to Paul it means the Christian might buy a copy of a Bible, but they aren't 'Entrusted' with its words.

 

[metis]

Dear friend, the Hebrew scriptures were first. After were the Greek scriptures. But in the year 70 after Christ, the Hebrew scriptures were destroyed by the Romans.

The Christians had the Scriptures of the Old Testament written in Greek, and was what was left after the destuccion of Temple.

After centuries, in the Middle Ages, the Jews wanted to rebuild the canon (law), and then took the Christian scriptures written in Greek in order to rebuild the Old Testament canon.

The Law that now have we Christians, is the law of the Gospel, the only real, logical and correct Law. Laws written in the Old Testament that are different than the law of the Gospel, already passed because they wasn't the true God's Law.

The above continues to be even beyond bizarre-- a near complete rewriting of biblical history.

OK, let's say for the sake of discussion that you're correct, that Christians and Jews use the Greek texts because somehow all the Hebrew scrolls disappeared into thin air when the Temple was destroyed in 70 c.e.

So what? All Christian churches use that same text, and they all derive at least some of their teachings from that same text. If this text is somehow mostly wrong, then why does every single church denomination use it? If you were to be correct, logically at least some of them would have discarded it and just stuck with the "N.T.". Except they didn't.

Secondly, let's assume that a significant part of what you call the "O.T." is inaccurate. Which parts are and which parts aren't, and exactly which criteria will you use to determine which is which? Are you over 2500 years old whereas you can tell us for sure what actually happened?

Thirdly, if you believe that the "O.T." is that inaccurate, why do you somehow supposedly know the the "N.T." is accurate? Were you actually there 2000 years ago so as to be able to determine that it is?

What you are using is obviously nothing less than a double-standard with both the "O.T." and the "N.T.".

 

[Muffled]

Thanks for sharing your opinion Muffled. You have disagreed with me on most points, but that is to be expected. We don't share many ideas in common, and I represent a much more sceptical view of the church today. I think that the bad things that have happened in Jesus name did happen in his name, and you cannot separate yourself from other Christians. One of the mysteries Paul teaches is that Christ is a body of people and the sins of one afflict the rest. It is irresponsible to simply dissociate from the bad actions of a member while at the same time claiming responsibility for all of the good acts of the martyrs and the prophets and all of the good Christians like Mother Teresa. If you have kinship to the martyrs you also have kinship to the crusaders. If Christ is a body at all then all members share responsibility, not just joy. The Puritans are responsible for the mistaken killing and conviction of women accused of witchcraft in Salem, and to associate with their good deeds and claim kinship to them is to assume responsibility also for their wrongdoings. It includes the responsibility for repairing the root causes that caused them to judge people so harshly for example, not just to say that "I am not responsible for that as it is not something I would do."

I believe you missed the point which is that the things that people do that are not Christian can't define the Christian faith. It would be like saying that tax evasion is a good example of good citizenship.

 

[Muffled]

That seems very reasonable at first. Why I wonder then on what basis Jesus tells the Pharisees "Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets." (Luke 11:47). So what if their ancestors killed the prophets? They didn't do it themselves. That should count for something, shouldn't it? Yes, it seems that you and I may both disagree with Jesus on this point, unless you think we have made a mistake?

The point Jesus is making is not that they are responsible for the acts of their ancestors but that the bad actions of the current people will be punished and their ancestors actions also at the same time. Luke 11:50 that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

It wasn't what had been done but what they were going to do to God int he flesh. Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send unto them prophets and apostles; and some of them they shall kill and persecute;