The purposeful vagueness of scriptures.

[idea]

Everyone but God is allowed to talk per your view. Why is that?

An observation, not dictation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Oops. That response was supposed to be to @Link, but I will still answer you.
I don't know.

That’s ok. Then when you think you have some sort of measurement let me know and i can see if i have anything that meets your expectations.

 

[idea]

Everyone has their own measurement on what would constitute for them that God exists. What do you think would be something that could convince you God exists.

The same for any theory to increase in legitimacy. Everyone needs to agree on it. The greater the number of diverse groups who attain reproducible results, the greater the confidence. Can never be 100% confident in anything, but the probability something is true increases when diverse disconnected societies all independently arrive at the same conclusions.

 

[idea]

I've made threads showing some of those reasons. I can link you to some of those threads.

But rationally God is capable of proving his religion through signs including a book that would be miraculous. If he could not do it through a book, he would do it constantly through physical miracles. But there are no physical miracles in public which leaves a different type of miracle, which is the Quran today. However, the Quran also emphasizes to seek physical signs/miracles from the guide of the time and so these work together.

That is the same claim as the Mormons. They also claim their book is miraculous, they also claim miracles. They claim everyone else is apostate and led by Satan and fallen angels, that only the book of Mormon and their current prophet are led by god.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The same for any theory to increase in legitimacy. Everyone needs to agree on it. The greater the number of diverse groups who attain reproducible results, the greater the confidence. Can never be 100% confident in anything, but the probability something is true increases when diverse disconnected societies all independently arrive at the same conclusions.

That makes a lot of sense. If we all set out on a search for truth and found it then we should have all arrived at the same place?

 

[idea]

It seems loyalty us often confused with faith.

Love your family, your group - but its not the only group. All of our groups are "good", but they are not "true".

 

[ppp]

That’s ok. Then when you think you have some sort of measurement let me know and i can see if i have anything that meets your expectations.

My expectation is that the person making the claim (such as yourself) would be the one to provide the rational basis for someone (such as myself) to accept the claim.

 

[idea]

That makes a lot of sense. If we all set out on a search for truth and found it then we should have all arrived at the same place?

We have already arrived at similar places for many things. Consensus isn't proof, nothing is ever certain, but probabilities increase.

For religious overlap -

Illustrations of the Tao » John C. Wright's Journal

www.scifiwright.com

Benevolence, family, justice, honesty, mercy, work ethic, we agree on what is important.

Spending hours rationalizing about authority/speculation about prophecies in one small group - wasted time.

Time spent serving family and community, working, exploring - wonderful life.

Have to run. Happy New Years everyone. May you have healthy loving relashionships - not controlling, not judging or fear mongering - see everyone as good, no one right, no one with authority over another, but we're all good . No bowing down to crazy prophets (love them too, but think for yourself) Blessings to you all.

 

[loverofhumanity]

My expectation is that the person making the claim (such as yourself) would be the one to provide the rational basis for someone (such as myself) to accept the claim.

It works differently with us. We believe in the independent investigation of truth so it’s up to people to do their own research and investigation and base their decisions on that. Only you can decide if something is true or not for you. No matter what anyone told me i followed my own investigation and made my own decision.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We have already arrived at similar places for many things. Consensus isn't proof, nothing is ever certain, but probabilities increase.

For religious overlap -

Illustrations of the Tao » John C. Wright's Journal

www.scifiwright.com

Benevolence, family, justice, honesty, mercy, work ethic, we agree on what is important.

Spending hours rationalizing about authority/speculation about prophecies in one small group - wasted time.

Time spent serving family and community, working, exploring - wonderful life.

Have to run. Happy New Years everyone. May you have healthy loving relashionships - not controlling, not judging or fear mongering - see everyone as good, no one right, no one with authority over another, but we're all good . No bowing down to crazy prophets (love them too, but think for yourself) Blessings to you all.

Happy New Year!

 

[Brickjectivity]

Prophecies/scriptures are purposefully vague which allow for/create a wide range of interpretations.

Disagree on this one, except for certain things like Nostradamus prophecies.

People find meaning in the interpretations that fit their experiences, reinforcing a belief in the legitimacy of various different dogmas. Ambiguity leads to self-fulfilling prophecies as individuals and societies shape their actions based on their understanding of the prophecies, influencing outcomes to match their expectations.

I agree on this part of that paragraph. People do this, however this can be done with many things. For example people can completely misconstrue a law, but that doesn't mean the law is intentionally vague.

If viewpoints change to recognize the non-literal personal and subjective nature of contemplating/studying scriptures, use spiritual texts for personal exploration of one's own inner thoughts rather than thinking one interpretation applies to everyone, religious texts could be helpful.

It is helpful to realize when we are outsiders or insufficiently trained to read the material and that we are actually using inspiration rather than pure textual analysis. For example if I like something about the sun having wings I nevertheless realize that I may not actually know what is intended. Maybe I think that the people believed the sun had wings, but what I think doesn't rise to an actual mastery of the text. They may not have thought the sun had wings.

How many here enjoy the study of scriptures, hold their own personal interpretations of the text, and see those interpretations as personal - not universal.

I do not enjoy that. I read the scriptures in English, because everybody said I should and because they were mentioned in many sermons. When I became critical of the things said in sermons that did not amount to having an interpretation though I tended to think of it that way. What I did was to form models of what it might be saying and also to find bits of scripture that were awe inspiring or particularly compassionate or clever. Finally I found puzzles and curiosities which hung around in my thinking. I found that I was not prepared to interpret it: to put it into a larger context. I kept trying, but the context kept changing. If I enjoyed the study of the scriptures I'd have learned the original languages. I hated the study of the scriptures, because I was distracted. It was taxing and boring sometimes, and it didn't make sense easily. I also felt guilt for not having greater interest, since I believed these were God's own words. I sought in the scriptures means to fix problems though and to identify what went wrong in the churches and who was to blame. Technically I prosecuted the scriptures and looked for root causes for my ailments. I wanted to know for example if there was a conspiracy. Paranoia made me interested. My effort is pathetic in hindsight. I had a lot of good luck though and some serendipitous saves. There are insights, so its not a big zero.

I would not say that the prophecies and scriptures were intentionally vague. I'd say that I approached them without knowing how.

 

[ppp]

It works differently with us.

I know how it works with you. You asked me what my expectations would be and I told you. Telling me that you cannot meet my minimal standards is not going to get me to lower my standards.

 

[Link]

That is the same claim as the Mormons. They also claim their book is miraculous, they also claim miracles. They claim everyone else is apostate and led by Satan and fallen angels, that only the book of Mormon and their current prophet are led by god.

Claims can be similar. Claims don't make it true. However, there can be truth to one and not the other. This means you need to study particularly the claims and see if they hold.

 

[Link]

What event would demonstrate to me that there is a god merely by my seeing it occur?

The moon being split is a good example in Quran.

 

[Link]

An observation, not dictation.

Your observation has it everyone is talking but God. Why is that?

 

[ppp]

The moon being split is a good example in Quran.

How would that demonstrate to me that there is a god?

 

[Link]

How would that demonstrate to me that there is a god?

The power shows someone is in control.

 

[ppp]

The power shows someone is in control.

How would power show me that someone is responsible for the moon being split?

 

[Link]

How would power show me that someone is responsible for the moon being split?

The power has to come from somewhere, it's easily seen the source is from greatly powerful being. If no other being contests those miracles, it shows the order is from the Creator.

 

[ppp]

The power has to come from somewhere

Sure.

it's easily seen the source is from greatly powerful being

How can I confirm that the source of this power is a god, independently of what you (or any other believer) reports being able to easily see?