The Qur'an allows sex-slaves...!?

[The Emperor of Mankind]

This rubbish scenes exist only in the media, you and some others are fooled by the media.

Why not to hear from the one who was a captive herself or as you want to call "a slave", Islam is
a tsunami for those who work to stop it, it's God message that no one on earth can stop it.

There's a difference between a slave and a prisoner, Fear. Was she forced to perform labour against her will or under threat? No. Was she forced to have sex against her will? No. She wasn't a slave. And lol, okay, sure. What you're failing to recognise is that people aren't interested in "stopping God's message"; we're simply pointing out nonsensical claims such as the idea that a man who raided caravans, took slaves and offered conversion or the sword was an man of moral greatness. But oh well; back to the main point.

Yvonne Ridley is a member of the Respect Party. That's more than enough for anyone who understands British politics to dismiss her as a mental case. On the chance you're not aware, the Respect Party is basically a cult of influence for George Galloway who is a walking, talking joke. He's about as irrational a person as you'll find in all of Britain. He and his party are so worthless the Muslims he claims to represent & defend so vociferously voted him out of the position as their MP because he did such a bad job. I've also got no respect for someone who says "the Quran makes it clear that women are equal in spirituality, worth and education. What everyone forgets is that Islam is perfect; people are not." while the Pakistani Taliban shoot girls for going to school and Islamic State trade in sex slaves & forces strict, victim-blaming Islamic dress codes on women at the point of a gun - all while citing Islamic theology as a justification.

It sounds suspiciously like Yvonne Ridley acquired Stockholm Syndrome during her brief stint with the Taliban.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

And Islam didn't outlaw alcohol, and didn't outlaw raising and selling pigs.
All dirty things that is happening today in the world and was happening in pre Islam was solved
by the message of Islam.

My sides hurt from laughing at this so much. Islam certainly didn't stop:

1. Intolerance of other religions;
2. Sectarian warfare;
3. Oppression of women (Islam may have been progressive compared to other cultures at its inception, but other peoples have since surpassed Muslims in recognition of womens' rights);
4. Historical revisionism;
5. The idea that challenging religious ideas should be punished (blasphemy);
6. Genital mutilation;
7. Slavery;
8. Imperialism & colonialism;
9. Religious segregation & discrimination;
10. Religious influence in governance.

 

[firedragon]

Do you care to explain the verses? Because the other guy didn’t even try.

Lol. You put it upon yourself, its gonna be long then.

BTW, this is a cut and paste from one of my old posts.

Well, it definitely would not be a country that allows the neighbor to plunder your country. But it would not be an Aggressor.

That’s what Islam is.

AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU ENCOUNTER THEM – QURAN 2:191

Untruthful are those who use this little fragment of the Quran to show that Quran teaches murder and war. It is a deceitful strategy and anyone who quotes a little part of any book, completely out of context is an utter and complete hypocrite. The minor context of this quotation

And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not aggress, God does not love the aggressors. And kill them wherever you encounter them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the rejecters. And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is for God. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked. -Quran 2:190-193

You can see that the Quran does not tell you to be the victim but it establishes that you must not be the aggressor. You are allowed to fight back if someone aggressively fights with you. But even then, you are asked to forgive and cease fighting if the enemy seizes his fight. You are allowed to fight only until the persecution stops.

You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.

And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from yourself a Supporter, and grant us from yourself a Victor!” - Quran 4:75


TERRORISM, SUICIDE BOMBERS AND KILLING THE INNOCENT

The Quran clearly commands no innocent death must occur. Killing an innocent is like killing the whole of humanity.

It is because of this that we have decreed for the Children of Israel: “Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people.” Our messengers had come to them with clarities, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth. – Quran 5:32

It is a very elementary accusation that Islam has tyrannical laws and fundamentalism is looked down upon like a plague. Above are some fundamentals of Islam and proves that fundamentalism is a good thing. But some fanatics (Involved in sheer murder and those who generalise) will use them out of context. The claim that Islam allows you to randomly assassinate people or groups of people due to their creed is false and is clearly shown. The Quran teaches that you cannot kill unless the recipient has committed murder. Punishment to one person cannot exceed their crime.

CORRUPTION IN THE LAND – AN EXCUSE TO KILL ANYONE??

When the Quran is quoted in this manner it is average response by many who like to oppose, that the Quran says "or who has not committed corruption in the land" can be killed and you can interpret this corruption to be anything. E.g. a man slanders you and he has committed corruption in the land and you can kill him. Even the famous Islam Reform proponent Irshad Manji quotes this verse to show that Muslims have an excuse to commit atrocities based on this interpretation. The Quran gives examples that people with brains to reflect upon. It is a book, Not some 6k+ verses, each to be taken in completely individual context. What is corruption in the land? The Quran gives an example as follows.

And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing corruption in the land, and they were not reforming. They said: “Swear by God to one another that we will attack him and his family at night, and we will then say to his supporters: “We did not witness who murdered his family, and we are being truthful” – Quran 27:48-49

It has the phrase "Aw fasadhin fil ardhi" & "Yufsidhoona fil ardhi" or "corruption in the land" of which the example is "murdering in the name of God". They say to one another that they Swear by God about attacking and killing a family at night. This is taken as committing corruption in the land, which ironically is what these radical groups are doing. Their own God, in their own scripture says that he schemes against them.

And they schemed a scheme and we schemed a scheme, while they did not notice. – Quran 27:50

It is a challenge for the likes of Irshad Manji, with all due respect, to please dig a little deeper.

Humans are not even allowed to seek reward or a thank you note for assisting someone, forget waging war on innocents or be the cause of an innocent human being death.

“We only feed you seeking the face of God; we do not desire from you any reward or thanks.” – Quran 76:9

 

[firedragon]

Do you care to explain the verses? Because the other guy didn’t even try.

Those who kill in the name of God.

And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing “corruption in the land” (Yufsidhoona fil ardhi), and they were not reforming. They said: “Swear by God” to one another that we will attack him and his family at night, and we will then say to his supporters: “We did not witness who murdered his family, and we are being truthful” – Quran 27:48-49

Read that verse again and focus on the few words within quotations. These two verses the phrase "Aw fasadhin fil ardhi" & "Yufsidhoona fil ardhi" or "corruption in the land" of which the example is "murdering in the name of God". They say to one another that they “Swear by God” about attacking and killing a family at night. This is taken as committing corruption in the land, which ironically is what we are doing. Our own God, in our own scripture says that he schemes against us.
And they schemed a scheme and we schemed a scheme, while they did not notice. – Quran 27:50

There’s More

Check the beginning of the Quran, Chapter 2:11. “Do not cause corruption in the land” (La thufsidhu fil ardha”. If you read the surrounding verses it goes like this

• There are people who claim to believe in God (Allah = Al-Ilah or The God)
• They seek to deceive God and those who believe
• They have a disease in their hearts
• When they told not to cause “corruption in the land” they say “Nope, we have come as REFORMERS”
• But actually they are the corruptors.
• When they meet a believer they say we believe, but inside their hearts they do not.
• Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return.

Who is God talking about? It cannot be someone who claims to be a non-believer as said above.

Same Surah, Chapter 2:11 says that it is those who has already pledged their allegiance to God, believers, who will cause corruption in the land (Yufsidhuna Fil Ardhi). If you read further you will see

“Among the people is he whose talk about worldly life impresses you, and he holds Allah witness to what is in his heart, though he is the staunchest of enemies. And if he were to wield authority, he would try to cause corruption in the land, and to ruin the crop and the stock, and Allah does not like corruption. – Quran 2:204-205

The corruptors life impresses you. I am sure you cant put a Christian or a different sect into this category. They don’t impress you. It is your own who can impress you, but they are the enemy. And when he has power he will cause “corruption in the land” (Fil Ardhi liyufsidha fiha). Read the above verse again.

It is not those who call themselves Christian, Jew, Athiest or polytheist who are deemed here as against God, it those who pledge alliance with God, as in claim to be believers who fall into this category. Generally the reader if he is a Muslim he thinks, “Oh this is talking about others”, if he is a Christian he thinks “Oh this is about me”, Islam is a murderous religion. No my brothers and sisters, read as a reader, as in first person. It is a one to one communication.

Going back to verses 27:48 and 49 it will clearly show you that those who cause corruption in the land are
• those who claim or pretend to believe,
• they swear by God (Allah) and murder people.

Their punishment is death.

And in the city were nine ruffians who were causing “corruption in the land” (Yufsidhoona fil ardhi), and they were not reforming. They said: “Swear by God” to one another that we will attack him and his family at night, and we will then say to his supporters: “We did not witness who murdered his family, and we are being truthful”

God has a nice parable to the “Corruptors of the land”. Read in the 2nd Surah of the Quran.

2:26 God does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say: “What does God intend with this example?” He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.

2:27 The ones who break the pledge to God after making its covenant, and they sever what God had ordered to be delivered, and they make corruption on the earth (Yufsidhuna Fil Ardha); these are the losers.

The parable of the mosquito or the Gnat is for those who cause corruption in the land. Wonder whats the significance of that.

• They suck blood
• Mosquitos are recognized as the deadliest creatures in the world. The anopheles kills approximately 1 million human beings a year.

Those who swear by God (Kalu thaka samu biullah) and without reforming murder people. They are the corruptors of the land. They are the ones who are defined in the verses. They pledge their will to God first, claim to be believers, you will be impressed by them, but when they wield power they corrupt and murder. This is their personality. Put the cap if it fits, or think for yourself who fits the cap. Most of all, read the book as if you are reading it for yourself.

 

[Sabour]

Okay. Peace Out, brother.

Peace bro

 

[Aquitaine]

I am honest, I did not deny that not exist .

but I tell it's not comparable to West or non-Muslim countries , especially about prostitution .

We may never truly know.
For the record, you are aware that prostitution is illegal in almost all "western" countries too, right?
I get the impression that you and FearGod believe prostitution in the West is a "rite of passage" and that the standard path/expectation for western females is Primary School -> Secondary School -> Prostitution.

Of course hypocrites exist too and they're even more worse than the atheists.

"the atheists". . .
You are aware that Atheism is not an official regimented group; Atheists share no political, social, economic, lifestyle or ideological values with each other with the exception of one spiritual belief: that there is no God.
Generalizing all Atheists is a rather silly thing to do, even more so than generalizing all Christians/Muslims etc.

 

[Aquitaine]

BTW, That post does not have any varying interpretations. Its plain and blatant.

But I also understand your question about interpretations. My recommendation is that if you really want, interpret it from the Quranic point of view. Not external documents.

Whos interpretation of the Koranic point of view do we go off though?

 

[Aquitaine]

My sides hurt from laughing at this so much. Islam certainly didn't stop:

1. Intolerance of other religions;
2. Sectarian warfare;
3. Oppression of women (Islam may have been progressive compared to other cultures at its inception, but other peoples have since surpassed Muslims in recognition of womens' rights);
4. Historical revisionism;
5. The idea that challenging religious ideas should be punished (blasphemy);
6. Genital mutilation;
7. Slavery;
8. Imperialism & colonialism;
9. Religious segregation & discrimination;
10. Religious influence in governance.

Ah, but the muslim nations who promoted and encouraged the traits listed above didn't consist of real muslims as there hasn't been a real muslim country since Mohammad's time; ergo we can conveniently shrug off the atrocities that those nations did in the name of Islam, because of the No True Greased Scotsman Fallacy.

 

[firedragon]

Whos interpretation of the Koranic point of view do we go off though?

My recommendation is that if you really want, interpret it from the Quranic point of view. Not external documents.

Try and use a word for word translation. If not go to http://corpus.quran.com/, try word for word translation. Make your own intelligent assumption.

The problem will be again, the translators are bias.

 

[Godobeyer]

We may never truly know.
For the record, you are aware that prostitution is illegal in almost all "western" countries too, right?
I get the impression that you and FearGod believe prostitution in the West is a "rite of passage" and that the standard path/expectation for western females is Primary School -> Secondary School -> Prostitution.

No all time, but that option is very available and normal in Western countries, on contrary that may not welcome in Muslim countries.
.

Spoiler: girl fail in education

http://img.desmotivaciones.es/201201/377541_162155253886899_100002772773540_157500_1961194359_n.jpg

 

[Nefelie]

Aha falling in love, she becomes a Muslim because of love.

It is obvious that you have no idea about psychology and therefore about what I’m talking about. “Stockholm Syndrome”… look it up.

The message of Islam is a threat, what kind of a stupid conclusion is this.

So, you agree?!

Slavery is all over the place in the New Testament.

Thanks for the references

I’m happy to see that there are none in the Gospels!

Yvonne Ridley is a member of the Respect Party. That's more than enough for anyone who understands British politics to dismiss her as a mental case.

I have no clue about British politics but the lady does seem unstable.
Could you give me a link for this Respect Party?

Lol. You put it upon yourself, its gonna be long then.

Well I surely didn’t expect it to be THAT long!

OK, here we go:

You can see that the Quran does not tell you to be the victim but it establishes that you must not be the aggressor. You are allowed to fight back if someone aggressively fights with you. But even then, you are asked to forgive and cease fighting if the enemy seizes his fight. You are allowed to fight only until the persecution stops.

Yes, I get it. It’s like the rule to almost all ancient martial arts: do not strike first but make sure you strike last.

And that is exactly the problem: Islam is a religion, not a martial art! It should be teaching peace, not giving fight rules. Do you see the problem?

Not to mention the obvious problem: if I slap you (therefore I’m the aggressor), what should your “answer” be? Another slap or a bomb in my house…? At least the OT is more clear on this: “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a rooth” - a slap for a slap.

(Not that I agree with the OT also having martial art’s rules, but I’m just happy it’s more specific)

You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.

Again, with what strength?

The Quran clearly commands no innocent death must occur. Killing an innocent is like killing the whole of humanity.

Well that is definitely good to know!

The Quran teaches that you cannot kill unless the recipient has committed murder.

And THAT is the “loop hole” for the fundamentalists.

In other words, if my country kills people from your country, then it is OK for your country to kill people in mine, in response.

Do you see the “loop hole”?

CORRUPTION IN THE LAND - AN EXCUSE TO KILL ANYONE??

The paragraph about this, I didn’t get it. I didn’t see your point. It seems to me clear that the Qur’an is OK about killing, under certain circumstances. And it’s contradicting Itself just enough so it can be interpreted either way.

.

 

[firedragon]

Not to mention the obvious problem: if I slap you (therefore I’m the aggressor), what should your “answer” be? Another slap or a bomb in my house…? At least the OT is more clear on this: “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a rooth” - a slap for a slap.

Quran also says Eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But that is when it comes to crime and punishment. Simple, you cant give death sentence to a human being unless its for murder.

Again, with what strength?

Nefelie. Thats an irrelevant argument.
You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed. Whatever strength.

And THAT is the “loop hole” for the fundamentalists.

In other words, if my country kills people from your country, then it is OK for your country to kill people in mine, in response.

Do you see the “loop hole”?

No. That loophole is not there because it is explicitly explained, only the murderer. Cmon, thats not logical to ask that question.
Maybe because I know the Quran and know the context and you wish not to see it. I tried providing the context.

The paragraph about this, I didn’t get it. I didn’t see your point. It seems to me clear that the Qur’an is OK about killing, under certain circumstances. And it’s contradicting Itself just enough so it can be interpreted either way.

.

You have not read through.

Cheers.

 

[FearGod]

It is obvious that you have no idea about psychology and therefore about what I’m talking about. “Stockholm Syndrome”… look it up.

You mean that the captives (slaves) will love their captors and have love and sexual relationships while in captivity.
Sounds stupid.

So, you agree?!

Yes, stupid conclusion

 

[firedragon]

Thanks for the references

I’m happy to see that there are none in the Gospels!

I dont like fleeting statements like the new testament is rampant with slavery etc.

But, you cant say there are none in the Gospels.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one of you for whatever good you do, whether you are slave or free. - Ephesians chapter 6

The writer used the word Douloi (Plural of Doulos).

 

[Nefelie]

You mean that the captives (slaves) will love their captors and have love and sexual relationships while in captivity.

I mean: READ ABOUT THE STOCKHOLM SYNDROME.

Yes, stupid conclusion

I love your arguments. They are so mature and well delivered

But, you cant say there are none in the Gospels. […] - Ephesians chapter 6

The Ephesians is an Epistle by Paul, not a Gospel, dear. It is in the NT but it’s not a Gospel.

The canonical Gospels are 4: Gospel according to Luke, Gospel according to Mathew, Gospel according to Mark and Gospel according to John. All 4 talk about Jesus’ life and teachings.

The rest of the NT are the Epistles of Paul, the Acts of the Apostles and the Revelation.

In my opinion, the only books worth reading from the NT, are the Gospels. But I’m not Christian. And this is also off topic

.

 

[Nefelie]

Maybe because I know the Quran and know the context and you wish not to see it.

Yes, knowing a text can give you an advantage but also can make you blind in different interpretations. You know “this way” for many years (probably since you where born) and it’s really hard to see “that way”.

Me, who I’m not Muslim and have read the Qur’an as an adult and only a couple of times, what I see to the passages you gave me is legal framework. And since I have some experience about laws and legal framework, I can tell you that it’s worded in a very common way to create loopholes.
It is very much alike some laws that are created deliberately in a way to frame most people but favour the few (we all know these laws by our governments).

.

 

[FearGod]

I mean: READ ABOUT THE STOCKHOLM SYNDROME.

Yes it's when the captive(slave) love the captor.

I love your arguments. They are so mature and well delivered

Thank you





.

 

[firedragon]

The Ephesians is an Epistle by Paul, not a Gospel, dear. It is in the NT but it’s not a Gospel.

The canonical Gospels are 4: Gospel according to Luke, Gospel according to Mathew, Gospel according to Mark and Gospel according to John. All 4 talk about Jesus’ life and teachings.

The rest of the NT are the Epistles of Paul, the Acts of the Apostles and the Revelation.

In my opinion, the only books worth reading from the NT, are the Gospels. But I’m not Christian. And this is also off topic

Well, if that is your contention then I concede.

Also, I really dont how you get that green smiley face.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, knowing a text can give you an advantage but also can make you blind in different interpretations.

If one is blind after knowing it, what do you say to some one who doesnt know any thing about it but speculates based on cherry picked verses, distorted absurdly, found on the internet.

 

[Nefelie]

Yes it's when the captive(slave) love the captor.

Not exactly. Read about it.

Thank you

You are much welcomed

~~~

Also, I really dont how you get that green smiley face.

It’s : D with no spaces between.

If one is blind after knowing it, what do you say to some one who doesnt know any thing about it but speculates based on cherry picked verses, distorted absurdly, found on the internet.

This conversation is starting to loop. I think we reached the point that it’s pointless to keep talking about it and it’s best to agree that we disagree.

.