The Qur'an allows sex-slaves...!?

[firedragon]

This conversation is starting to loop. I think we reached the point that it’s pointless to keep talking about it and it’s best to agree that we disagree.

Anyone can do that. Id rather you show me the verse, and show me the loophole. I can only see that its covered..

 

[morphesium]

How did you deem the right hand possesses to be slaves?
How do they become sex slaves?

Sex out of marriage is punishable and a great sin, there's no such a thing as sex slaves.

Islam encourages freeing the slaves and gives women the dignity and modesty, so this video is nonsense.

In fact Islam makes it an article of faith and redemption from sin to free a slave. Doesnt say your slave, but A SLAVE.

1. You cant have slaves
2. You must free slaves.

Which verse in the quran that says get the prisoner of war as sex slaves?

With these you all are disagreeing with the Koran and acts of Mohammed. It is far far better to say that you accept that there are such versus of low morale in koran and that you being much more cultured morally, doesn't agree with any of those.

 

[FearGod]

With these you all are disagreeing with the Koran and acts of Mohammed. It is far far better to say that you accept that there are such versus of low morale in koran and that you being much more cultured morally, doesn't agree with any of those.

Which verses in the quran that tell the master to have sex with his slaves and to own slaves?
Where did it say in the quran that the slave should do what his master asks him to do?
Just tell us, so we can discuss the verse in logical way.

 

[firedragon]

There's only one maula, one master. God. Slavery is polytheism. Mushreek. Because you, with slavery considered yourself a master and another human a slave.

Peace.

 

[Shaul]

Slavery is supported in the Jewish scriptures, too.

No, actually. The Jewish scriptures permit servants, but not chattel slavery. Indeed Judaism was the first religion to eliminate skavery.

 

[Shaul]

“ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Thats from Leviticus, cut and paste from TNIV that I use, that's chattel slavery explicitly explained, but lo and behold, not for the Israelites.

You dont buy servants to become property, inherit or leave them to your children as inherited property to be slaves for life. I didn't bring up your scriptures or any other scripture here because the topic was if Islam okays "sex with slaves". But I knew that would be inevitable when you started on history and irrelevant stuff for theology.

No where in the Quran does it explain buying, bequeathing and inheriting slaves for life etc. Thus, its not that I dont believe you when you say Jewish scriptures dont support slaves, I think its a lie. Unless you can explain that and show me that inheriting, bequeathing and buying slaves to slave for life means something something else.

Actually, no.

You can use any translation you want to, of course. But no translation is the actual scripture. The scripture is the original source text, which is Hebrew. The Hebrew word which your version translated as "slave" is עֶבֶד. (See Strong's entry H5650)This Hebrew word occurs 835 times in the Jewish scriptures. A key principle of hermeneutics is to let scripture interpret scripture. In other words, a word is defined with how it is used within the context of scripture. The English word slave means someone that is treated as chattel property. A slave has no rights. On the other hand a servant serves someone but is still treated as a person with certain rights. In the Hebrew Scriptures we see that servants have rights such as: to not work on the Sabbath, they are not to be maimed, and may marry. A chattel slaves could have no rights. The Hebrew word is also used to describe servants of G-d, Kings, and people that are exhalted and glorified. G-d doesn't keep slaves and no slave was exalted and looked up to. Simply put the Hebrew word, as used in the scriptures, is compatible with a translation as servant, not slave.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

There's only one maula, one master. God. Slavery is polytheism. Mushreek. Because you, with slavery considered yourself a master and another human a slave.

Peace.

Then there were a lot of polytheists professing to be Muslims for all but the last few decades of Islam's existence. In reality, it's not polytheism unless a slave-owner demands their slave worship them as a god.

 

[firedragon]

Actually, no.

You can use any translation you want to, of course. But no translation is the actual scripture. The scripture is the original source text, which is Hebrew. The Hebrew word which your version translated as "slave" is עֶבֶד. (See Strong's entry H5650)This Hebrew word occurs 835 times in the Jewish scriptures. A key principle of hermeneutics is to let scripture interpret scripture. In other words, a word is defined with how it is used within the context of scripture. The English word slave means someone that is treated as chattel property. A slave has no rights. On the other hand a servant serves someone but is still treated as a person with certain rights. In the Hebrew Scriptures we see that servants have rights such as: to not work on the Sabbath, they are not to be maimed, and may marry. A chattel slaves could have no rights. The Hebrew word is also used to describe servants of G-d, Kings, and people that are exhalted and glorified. G-d doesn't keep slaves and no slave was exalted and looked up to. Simply put the Hebrew word, as used in the scriptures, is compatible with a translation as servant, not slave.

Already done that mate.

You dont inherit or pass on servants.

“ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Thats from Leviticus, cut and paste from TNIV that I use, that's chattel slavery explicitly explained, but lo and behold, not for the Israelites.

You dont buy servants to become property, inherit or leave them to your children as inherited property to be slaves for life.

 

[firedragon]

Then there were a lot of polytheists professing to be Muslims for all but the last few decades of Islam's existence. In reality, it's not polytheism unless a slave-owner demands their slave worship them as a god.

Nope. Absolutely wrong.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Nope. Absolutely wrong.

In what sense am I wrong? Slavery still existed in the Muslim world - until pressure from the European powers after World War 1 led to Muslim countries outlawing the practice - which, by your argument, would be a lot of people placing themselves above others as their masters.

Further, you're taking the definition of polytheism so far beyond its real meaning you've rendered the term useless. Polytheism deals with how we view the nature of deity. Deity, FD, not men.

 

[firedragon]

Further, you're taking the definition of polytheism so far beyond its real meaning you've rendered the term useless. Polytheism deals with how we view the nature of deity. Deity, FD, not men.

How about your children? Do you worship them like Gods when the Quran says not to make your children deity? How about wealth? How about your own ego? Do you worship your own ego when the Quran explains deifying your own ego is polytheism?

Dont try to understand the Quran from your view, rather understand IT'S view.

Cheers.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

How about your children? Do you worship them like Gods when the Quran says not to make your children deity?

I'll assume I have kids for the sake of this question: no.

How about wealth?

Nope.

How about your own ego? Do you worship your own ego when the Quran explains deifying your own ego is polytheism?

No! I don't worship any of these things as gods!

Dont try to understand the Quran from your view, rather understand IT'S view.

Cheers.

Why should I do that when the Quran is wrong about what polytheism is? I'm not going to start from the assumption that a book - which is wrong and you've just given me three great examples of said error - is right.. Are you seriously suggesting that I, a polytheist, should disregard my own view of what polytheism is and accept the view of a book written by someone who wanted to slander, misrepresent & smear polytheism? Do you really expect me to make the effort to understand the Quran's point of view about my beliefs when Muhammed doesn't reciprocate - doesn't want to reciprocate because he already came to the conclusion that polytheism is evil and thus wasn't worth serious understanding?

 

[firedragon]

No! I don't worship any of these things as gods!

Exactly. That is polytheism according to the Quran.

Why should I do that when the Quran is wrong about what polytheism is?

Alright then.

Cheers.

 

[Shaul]

Already done that mate.

You dont inherit or pass on servants.

“ ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Thats from Leviticus, cut and paste from TNIV that I use, that's chattel slavery explicitly explained, but lo and behold, not for the Israelites.

You dont buy servants to become property, inherit or leave them to your children as inherited property to be slaves for life.

No, that doesn't mean they are chattel. You are reading into the text your own presumptions.

Yes you can certainly buy and inherit servants. It is called indenturement. They were still not chattel. Also, the servants that were slaves for life had to voluntarily choose that. As it says in Deuteronomy chapter 5 beginning at verse 16, "But if your servant says to you, “I do not want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his earlobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your female servant."

It also continues and explains how most servants are set free after a defined period, "Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because their service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the Lord your God will bless you in everything you do."

You are cherry picking verses in isolation and out of context. When you read all the scriptures related to servants it is quite clear that the Hebrew word עָבַד means servant and not a chattel slave.

Shalom

 

[firedragon]

No, that doesn't mean they are chattel. You are reading into the text your own presumptions.

Yes you can certainly buy and inherit servants. It is called indenturement. They were still not chattel. Also, the servants that were slaves for life had to voluntarily choose that. As it says in Deuteronomy chapter 5 beginning at verse 16, "But if your servant says to you, “I do not want to leave you,” because he loves you and your family and is well off with you, 17 then take an awl and push it through his earlobe into the door, and he will become your servant for life. Do the same for your female servant."

It also continues and explains how most servants are set free after a defined period, "Do not consider it a hardship to set your servant free, because their service to you these six years has been worth twice as much as that of a hired hand. And the Lord your God will bless you in everything you do."

You are cherry picking verses in isolation and out of context. When you read all the scriptures related to servants it is quite clear that the Hebrew word עָבַד means servant and not a chattel slave.

Shalom

Well. If you understand it that way its good.