The Qur'an: Intentions vs. Effects

[Niblo]

You could also give the same argument for the declaration of human rights.

I can only see human hands at work with these religious books,they are powerful tools that have been used to great effect,not just the Quran but the Bible too,that's all just my opinion though.

Good morning.

Agreed, with regard to the declaration of human rights.

I do not expect you to see anything but 'human hands' at work in the Qur'an (or in any other religious book); after all, you are not a Muslim! .

Have a great day, and very best regards.

 

[England my lionheart]

Good morning.

Agreed, with regard to the declaration of human rights.

I do not expect you to see anything but 'human hands' at work in the Qur'an (or in any other religious book); after all, you are not a Muslim! .

Have a great day, and very best regards.

Same to you bro

 

[Niblo]

Same to you bro

Thank you, that's very kind

 

[Muffled]

What are your thoughts regarding the Qur'an's intentions and its effects globally?

I believe it achieved its purpose in reaching countries with Pagan cultures that would have been difficult for Christianity to reach. However it should have paved the way for Christianity but failed to do so.

 

[Muffled]

The qur'an is a spiritual guidance for the muslims. It was meant to guide them to be able to go to Heaven.

The Qur'an it self has no effect Globally, it is the musims who follow the qur'an that has an effect on the world.

A holy book is never the problem, it is the people who misunderstand it that is the problem

I believe I never saw that in the Qu'ran. It does mention the end times but I doubt it gives good enough information there either.

 

[Muffled]

I do not think that is true or that it is the point - I have read enough "Jihadwatch" type sites to know exactly how they go about their business - they take lines out of context and post them as (so called) proof. But that is mainly about perceived intolerance to non Muslims

I don't believe it was the intent to demonize non-Muslims but simply God expecting people to listen to Him when He talks and holding people accountable when they don't.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I believe I never saw that in the Qu'ran. It does mention the end times but I doubt it gives good enough information there either.

The path of Islam also lead to a form of Paradise, Maybe not same as in Christianity, and not same as Nibbana in Buddhism, But they will if they cultivate the path righterous get to a form of Paradise. As far as i have understood that is.

 

[LuisDantas]

What are your thoughts regarding the Qur'an's intentions and its effects globally?

I don't think the Qur'an can be saved.

It is just way too reliant on monotheism for the sake of monotheism, thereby torpedoing its own ability to sustain a true religious faith.

Despite the herculean efforts of Muslims along the centuries, Islaam ultimately has to return to the Qur'an to define itself. That is an utterly self-defeating proposition.

 

[dybmh]

Islaam ultimately has to return to the Qur'an to define itself

Thank you.

I have found that Muslims define the Qur'an dramatically differently than non-Muslims. Have you noticed that?

 

[LuisDantas]

Thank you.

I have found that Muslims define the Qur'an dramatically differently than non-Muslims. Have you noticed that?

I would not put it quite that way, but I have noticed that the Qur'an and the perception of its role are considerably more exotic than I used to assume by extrapolating from Christianity and the Bible.

What do you mean exactly with your statement above?

 

[ManSinha]

I have found that Muslims define the Qur'an dramatically differently than non-Muslims. Have you noticed that?

In what way?

The adherents of any religion would define their holy book somewhat differently than the non adherents - you have to look at the defense of the Bible and the Kitab-i-Aqdas on these very fora to realize the truth about my statement

 

[dybmh]

What do you mean exactly with your statement above?

Yes, I should have been more clear. Sorry. I was speaking about out in the real world. There are many Non-Muslims here on RF who agree with Muslims in their definition of the Qur'an.

I should have said:

"In the real world, I have found that Muslims define the Qur'an dramatically differently than non-Muslims. Have you noticed that?"

I'm a super friendly outgoing person. In work, play, and travel, I talk to a lot of people. And I do my share of people watching and listening in on other conversations at hotels, restaurants, etc... Most of this is in America, but I occasionally travel to South America.

From this, in the real world, I have found that almost all Muslims define the Qur'an dramatically differently than non-Muslims. Non-Muslims seem to have a negative opinion on the Qur'an. I have noticed that Non-Muslims rarely admit complete ignorance. I would say, 50% of them admit a bit of ignorance but also say that they have "heard that" the Qur'an is "bad". The other 50% are quite sure that the Qur'an is "bad" because it allows murder, theft, and instructs Muslims to be intolerant.

Of these people above, from the group who are "quite sure the Qur'an is bad", I would say, half of them are Qur'an critics. These are the ones who have done a little ( or a lot ) of research on their own. On the occasion where I share my point of view, someone who I am identifying as a Qur'an critic will grab their phone, find an article, email, or website online, and proceed to defend their position that the "Qur'an is bad."

Have you noticed that? Out in the real world?

 

[LuisDantas]

Actually, I noticed pretty much the opposite. There is always the odd bird, but for the most part the Qur'an enjoys a far better reputation than it actually deserves, because people assume by default that it must be much like the Bible.

There are horrid passages in the Bible, but they are somewhat circunvened by the claim of the New Covenant in the New Testament and the absence of the self-inflicted promise of eternal and perfect relevance that the Qur'an has.

Islaam and the Qur'an complain a lot about the bias of the media, but both are in fact greatly protected by it, except for a few niche right-wing outlets that are basically insane on their own right.

 

[dybmh]

Actually, I noticed pretty much the opposite. There is always the odd bird, but for the most part the Qur'an enjoys a far better reputation than it actually deserves, because people assume by default that it must be much like the Bible.

There are horrid passages in the Bible, but they are somewhat circunvened by the claim of the New Covenant in the New Testament and the absence of the self-inflicted promise of eternal and perfect relevance that the Qur'an has.

Islaam and the Qur'an complain a lot about the bias of the media, but both are in fact greatly protected by it, except for a few niche right-wing outlets that are basically insane on their own right.

I feel like we are speaking from different perspectives. I am trying to remain objective. Are you speaking objectivley or subjectively?

I am simply paying attention to the number of people who have a positive opinion vs. those who have a negative opinion. Then I am measuring "how negative" based on whether a person claims a little ignorance, claims no ignorance, or pulls out their phone to defend their position.

However, your statement above includes your own assessment of the Qur'an.

You used the word "deserves". Is your statement above objective or subjective?

 

[LuisDantas]

I feel like we are speaking from different perspectives. I am trying to remain objective. Are you speaking objectivley or subjectively?

I would not waste my time failing to try to speak objectively in this matter, @dybmh .

But I have given up, after the longest time, on trying to come from the assumption that Islaam and the Qur'an must have inherent validity by default. I have learned better.

That may well be what is surprising you.

I am simply paying attention to the number of people who have a positive opinion vs. those who have a negative opinion. Then I am measuring "how negative" based on whether a person claims a little ignorance, claims no ignorance, or pulls out there phone to defend their position.

However, your statement above includes your own assessment of the Qur'an.

You used the word "deserves". Is your statement above objective or subjective?

You know I can't call it, pal.

 

[dybmh]

@LuisDantas ,

I am just trying to look at people's opinions of the Qur'an in the real world. I Am not trying to do anything else. If I could find an article that speaks about it or a survey, would that be helpful or interesting in our discussion?

 

[LuisDantas]

Sure, of course you can do that. Although I think that you will be hard pressed to convince anyone that any given take is objective.

Unfortunately, about the most objective one around those that I know of is Bill Warner's.

It would be great if he were being over-alarming. But such isn't the case.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What are your thoughts regarding the Qur'an's intentions and its effects globally?

As the old saying goes....

"The way to Hell is paved with good intentions."

I think all religions are inherently divisive.
I think Islam especially is in a tough spot, due to the status the Quran gets in that religion.

In Christian theology for example, there is the recognition at least that humans are fallible and that the bible was merely "inspired" as opposed to dictated.
There is general recognition that it might include things that aren't entirely accurate and because of that, it is more seen in context of the "spirit" of things.

Whereas the Quran is presented as pure perfection of the highest divine degree. That it was literally dictated and the most perfect text that ever existed or ever will exist. That makes Islamic theology a lot more "all or nothing" then something like Christianity.

This means that it forms a much more solid base for extremist beliefs to surface, which in turn fuels intolerance and division.

And I think we see the effect of that every day around the world. And in the middle east specifically.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I am not saying simply accept the claim it makes. I am saying see what it claims, then investigate if it does what it says.

If it does what it says then that just makes it internally consistent.
Which is nice off course, but not particularly interesting.

Many works of fiction are, after all, internally consistent.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Islam is not evil.
Islam is not the problem.

Why is it, that when the initial news of the lunatic in NZ broke out, everybody's initial assumption was that it was another attack carried out by islamic terrorists?

What is it about Islam that fuels these militant jihadists and extremist theology?

Do you recognise / acknowledge, that the problem of islamic extremism is a lot more serious then the problem of christian or jewish extremism (which most definatly also exists)?

Why is this?
What is the actual problem, if islam itself isn't the thing that fuels it somehow?