The Qur'an: Intentions vs. Effects

[Niblo]

He's on this thread and very anti Muslim.

Whoops.....my bad. Put it down to a Senior Moment (I'm 73 ).

 

[sooda]

Whoops.....my bad. Put it down to a Senior Moment (I'm 73 ).

Well, I think you're with it!

 

[Niblo]

Well, I think you're with it!

You're in the Will (South Wales Valley speak for: 'Thanks very much, that's really great!').

 

[Firemorphic]

I don't know. At this point I'm working on the Qur'an not on Islam. My focus is, What is the Qur'an's role in militant jihadists and extremist theology.

The truth is that it plays very little role. Terrorism is always politically driven, politics, politics, politics. Everything usually has to do with four things: National events (sometimes immigration), intention to force Legislation, Land (and it's problems) and Natural resources. Terrorism serves no use to religion or spirituality, has no role in it.

The idea of the Qur'an having a role in people going out and bombing places is just as absurd to me as some body deciding to take a shotgun into a supermarket after reading the Taittiriya Upanishad.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

The truth is that it plays very little role. Terrorism is always politically driven, politics, politics, politics.

The idea of the Qur'an having a role in people going out and bombing places is just as absurd to me as some body deciding to take a shotgun into a supermarket after reading the Taittiriya Upanishads.

You're exactly half-right. The primary drive of terrorism is seek political control.

However, the Qu'ran does in fact endorse such action. In its own words, lest you say I am persecuting Islam.

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks

Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home).Unto each, Allah has promised good (Paradise), but Allah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement

And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy.

So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them.

Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them

And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction

 

[ManSinha]

Terrorism serves no use to religion or spirituality, has no role in it.

Not entirely correct

Look at the Mughals in India - the earlier ones like Akbar were more tolerant - even tried to start a quasi religion Ain-i-Akbari - but with Aurangzeb - the last and perhaps greatest of the Mughals - he was decidedly more spiritual - now history says he was influenced by his advisors - but that cannot alone drive someone unless there is some inclination to that behavior already.

His excesses where he tried to forcefully convert people to Islam, are legendary. Now it is said he was so devout that he knitted prayer caps and made copies of the Qu'ran to earn money for his own keep but used his political power ruthlessly to spread his faith

How do you square that?

From where I stand - it was driven by his faith that Islam was above all - so differentiating the message from the politics is not easy

In fact I created an entire thread about my perceptions of Muslims being in power and why the middle ages after perhaps Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali have always seen this tension between Muslims in power and those that they deem are not of their faith

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Where did your "expertise" on Islam come from?

Your response leads me to believe that you didn't even read my post.

 

[james dixon]

When it comes to understanding Islam, Christian and Judaism it’s easy to look at them from a collective whole and miss the individual pieces that collectively make up the core intent.

These books of faith cover a long timeline and over this span of time there are parts that in part call for the destruction of non-believers and you can find parts that call for the understanding of others with a mutual sense of respect for differing cultures.

You can find good and bad elements in all three beliefs. You can find reasons to disparage other faiths if it suites your needs and likewise you can find the good parts if you care to look for them.

If you want peace and understanding to control the relationship, it’s there to find; if you look for it.

Israelis have no intention befriending Muslim’s; the Israeli’s consider Islam their mortal enemy and if they could they would wipe them out; if they could. Muslims know this and respond in like-kind towards the Israelis.

What we need to do is find the good in all these faiths and point them out wherever and whenever it is possible to do so. We need to strive for unity of understanding that all faiths can live side by side in peace.

I pray that this approach can create an environment of unified peace; or else doom and gloom awaits the life of our children.


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[The_Fisher_King]

Muslims all 1.7 billion are peace loving people. Terrorists with political motives are not Muslims as a Muslim is forbidden to commit aggression.

Erm, I don't think so. There is such a thing as a bad Muslim.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Despite the herculean efforts of Muslims along the centuries, Islaam ultimately has to return to the Qur'an to define itself.

It's not for Islam to define itself, it's for Muslims to define themselves. Islam arguably only exists in the lives of Muslims. And there are certainly plenty of Muslims who don't primarily define themselves in relation to the Qur'an.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Erm, I don't think so. There is such a thing as a bad Muslim.

I’m not saying there’s not. What I’m saying is that the religion, the Quran teaches them only to be good and do righteous deeds.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I’m not saying there’s not. What I’m saying is that the religion, the Quran teaches them only to be good and do righteous deeds.

So you accept that someone can be a Muslim and yet do bad things, indeed very bad things by the standards of their religion? i.e. one can be a Muslim and a murderer

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you accept that someone can be a Muslim and yet do bad things, indeed very bad things by the standards of their religion? i.e. one can be a Muslim and a murderer

Not a Muslim according to the standards of the Quran and it is the balance and standard to determine a true Muslim.

A black man may call himself white but he fools nobody not even himself. The Quran associates belief and attaining paradise with deeds not just what we call ourselves. So according to the Quran a terrorist is clearly not a Muslim.

(2:62) Whether they are the ones who believe (in the Arabian Prophet), or whether they are Jews, Christians or Sabians – all who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do righteous deeds – their reward is surely secure with their Lord; they need have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

And in the commentary of this verse we read...

Whoever has true faith and good deeds to his credit is bound to receive his reward, since God will judge people on the basis of merit rather than on the grounds that a man's name happens to be listed in the world as a member of one religious community or the other.

Muslims are all well aware that one cannot claim to be a Muslim and commit murder or terrorism. Those who commit these atrocities are nothing but killers and the Quran confirms believers as only those who ‘do righteous deeds’ and that excludes murderers and terrorists.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Not a Muslim according to the standards of the Quran and it is the balance and standard to determine a true Muslim.

A black man may call himself white but he fools nobody not even himself. The Quran associates belief and attaining paradise with deeds not just what we call ourselves. So according to the Quran a terrorist is clearly not a Muslim.

(2:62) Whether they are the ones who believe (in the Arabian Prophet), or whether they are Jews, Christians or Sabians – all who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do righteous deeds – their reward is surely secure with their Lord; they need have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

And in the commentary of this verse we read...

Whoever has true faith and good deeds to his credit is bound to receive his reward, since God will judge people on the basis of merit rather than on the grounds that a man's name happens to be listed in the world as a member of one religious community or the other.

Muslims are all well aware that one cannot claim to be a Muslim and commit murder or terrorism. Those who commit these atrocities are nothing but killers and the Quran confirms believers as only those who ‘do righteous deeds’ and that excludes murderers and terrorists.

To be a Muslim it is sufficient to testify to the Oneness of Allah (that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah) and to the Prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) (the final Messenger of Allah). Some would say that one should also believe in certain other things (e.g. the Angels, Holy Books, Day of Judgment, etc.). Beyond that, it is the Muslim's deeds that determine whether she or he is a good or bad Muslim (in Allah's Sight). And it is for Allah to judge the latter. Indeed, it is for Allah to judge ultimately who is and is not a Muslim.

 

[loverofhumanity]

To be a Muslim it is sufficient to testify to the Oneness of Allah (that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah) and to the Prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) (the final Messenger of Allah). Some would say that one should also believe in certain other things (e.g. the Angels, Holy Books, Day of Judgment, etc.). Beyond that, it is the Muslim's deeds that determine whether she or he is a good or bad Muslim (in Allah's Sight). And it is for Allah to judge the latter.

In the Quran the two conditions for being safe or saved are belief and righteous deeds. One is not acceptable without the other. In the Quran belief is linked with good deeds. Both are required. So a terrorist may call himself a Muslim but his acts show he is not.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Erm, I don't think so. There is such a thing as a bad Muslim.

A Muslim by definition is one who submits to the law of God. Which law in the Quran is the terrorist submitting to which makes him a Muslim? The Quran stipulates good deeds and belief as the joint requirement not just verbal belief.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

In the Quran the two conditions for being safe or saved are belief and righteous deeds. One is not acceptable without the other. In the Quran belief is linked with good deeds. Both are required. So a terrorist may call himself a Muslim but his acts show he is not.

Islam is not just based on the Qur'an. There are the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh), the Imams, and so on. Not to mention the lived experiences and perspectives of Muslims themselves.

Moreover, there are different perspectives on what counts as a righteous deed in Islam.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

A Muslim by definition is one who submits to the law of God. Which law in the Quran is the terrorist submitting to which makes him a Muslim? The Quran stipulates good deeds and belief as the joint requirement not just verbal belief.

See my response to your other post.

It might also be worth having a discussion about what counts as terrorism.

 

[ManSinha]

Muslims are all well aware that one cannot claim to be a Muslim and commit murder or terrorism. Those who commit these atrocities are nothing but killers and the Quran confirms believers as only those who ‘do righteous deeds’ and that excludes murderers and terrorists.

The leaders of the Caliphate would disagree with you - according to them they are following the tenets

 

[ManSinha]

n the Quran the two conditions for being safe or saved are belief and righteous deeds.

It is all in the definition is it not? "Righteous" by your definition may not be someone else's and vice versa