The Qur'an: Intentions vs. Effects

[loverofhumanity]

Islam is not just based on the Qur'an. There are the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh), the Imams, and so on. Not to mention the lived experiences and perspectives of Muslims themselves.

Moreover, there are different perspectives on what counts as a righteous deed in Islam.

I understand many turn to other voices but the Quran remains the only real,authority in Islam and constitutes the only Word of God for both Sunnis and Shiahs.

The Quran forbids terrorism, murder and aggression so terrorists basically have to rely on, verses taken out of context and Hadiths which are only sayings not the Word of God. So they can only commit acts of terror by disobeying the Quran as the Quran forbids it,,

 

[loverofhumanity]

The leaders of the Caliphate would disagree with you - according to them they are following the tenets

They are just leaders with no authority given to them at all from the Quran who are self appointed and have fooled the people into following them and not the Quran.

So what the problem is as in many religions is the religion of God has been usurped and become the religion of the priests, clergy or Mullahs. The religion of God is the Quran no one and nothing else. Muslims, who are told by the Quran not to worship idols have made idols of their leaders.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It is all in the definition is it not? "Righteous" by your definition may not be someone else's and vice versa

The Quran by its laws defines what is right and wrong. So killing, murder and terrorism are strictly forbidden.

57:25

Indeed We sent Our Messengers with Clear Signs, and sent down with them the Book and the Balance that people may uphold justice.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I understand many turn to other voices but the Quran remains the only real,authority in Islam and constitutes the only Word of God for both Sunnis and Shiahs.

The Quran forbids terrorism, murder and aggression so terrorists basically have to rely on, verses taken out of context and Hadiths which are only sayings not the Word of God. So they can only commit acts of terror by disobeying the Quran as the Qurforbids it,,

The fact of the matter remains, though, that the Hadiths and the sayings of the Imams remain key to understanding Islam as it is understood and practiced by many, perhaps most, Muslims. Only the Qur'an-only Muslims, who are very much in the minority, rely on the Qur'an alone as their authority.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The fact of the matter remains, though, that the Hadiths and the sayings of the Imams remain key to understanding Islam as it is understood and practiced by many, perhaps most, Muslims. Only the Qur'an-only Muslims, who are very much in the minority, rely on the Qur'an alone as their authority.

There are three main problems with Hadiths.

1. The Quran does not approve of them
2. They are not the Word of God
3. They are unreliable

31: 6 Among the people, there are those who accept baseless hadiths to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.

This is where Islam went terribly wrong, relying on Hadiths instead of the Quran only.

Soon after Muhammad's death, thousands of hadiths (words attributed to Muhammad) were fabricated and two centuries later collected, and centuries later compiled and written in the so-called "authentic" hadith books:

to support the teaching of a particular sect against another (such as, what nullifies ablution; which sea food is prohibited);
· to flatter or justify the authority and practice of a particular king against dissidents (such as, Mahdy and Dajjal);
· to promote the interest of a particular tribe or family (such as, favoring the Quraysh tribe or Muhammad's family);
· to justify sexual abuse and misogyny (such as, Aisha's age; barring women from leading Sala prayers);
· to justify violence, oppression and tyranny (such as, torturing members of Urayna and Uqayla tribes; massacring the Jewish population in Yathrib; assassinating a female poet for her critical poems); etc

Hadith and the Corruption of the great religion of Islam | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

Whenever you want to pursue the truth and verify anything you hear about Islam, we urge you to please use the only valid and divine source of Islam, Quran.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

There are three main problems with Hadiths.

1. The Quran does not approve of them
2. They are not the Word of God
3. They are unreliable

31: 6 Among the people, there are those who accept baseless hadiths to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and they take it as entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.

This is where Islam went terribly wrong, relying on Hadiths instead of the Quran only.

Soon after Muhammad's death, thousands of hadiths (words attributed to Muhammad) were fabricated and two centuries later collected, and centuries later compiled and written in the so-called "authentic" hadith books:

to support the teaching of a particular sect against another (such as, what nullifies ablution; which sea food is prohibited);
· to flatter or justify the authority and practice of a particular king against dissidents (such as, Mahdy and Dajjal);
· to promote the interest of a particular tribe or family (such as, favoring the Quraysh tribe or Muhammad's family);
· to justify sexual abuse and misogyny (such as, Aisha's age; barring women from leading Sala prayers);
· to justify violence, oppression and tyranny (such as, torturing members of Urayna and Uqayla tribes; massacring the Jewish population in Yathrib; assassinating a female poet for her critical poems); etc

Hadith and the Corruption of the great religion of Islam | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

Whenever you want to pursue the truth and verify anything you hear about Islam, we urge you to please use the only valid and divine source of Islam, Quran.

I was contending your claim that the Qur'an remains the only real authority in Islam. The above is not the view of the vast majority of Muslims.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I was contending your claim that the Qur'an remains the only real authority in Islam. The above is not the view of the vast majority of Muslims.

Yes I know and that’s caused a heap of problems for Islam by following scholars, Mullas and Hadiths especially when they state things opposite to the Quran.,

The Quran speaks good of the righteous of other religions but Mullas in mosques call for the destruction of Israel, denounce Baha’is Jews and demonise Americans as the ‘great satan’.

You think these incitement’s to hatred doesn’t damage international relations?

And what do these Mullas base such attacks upon? Certainly not the Quran. If they only used the Quran the Israeli and Palestine problem may be able to be solved but they prefer to incite using no authoritative source and people believe them.

Anyway you made many good points and you are right that Islam doesn’t base a lot of what it does anymore on the Quran only which is a real pity and often tragedy.

Thanks for a good discussion. I enjoy discussing with you as you seem very reasonable.

 

[ManSinha]

Whenever you want to pursue the truth and verify anything you hear about Islam, we urge you to please use the only valid and divine source of Islam, Quran.

The Qu'ran was written by humans at the dictation of another human - there is no proof other than say so - that it is the word of the divine

 

[dybmh]

Here is a source i found for information on the Qur'an from what appears to be a reputable source.

The History of the Qur'anic Text From Revelation to Compilation
By Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'zami

The book is available free for download. Link provided below.
https://www.kalamullah.com/history-of-the-quranic-text.html

"A catalogue of ancient and contemporary attacks on the Qur'an, this expansive book provides unique insights into the holy text's immaculate preservation throughout its history, as well as exploring many of the accusations levelled against it."

About the author:

Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'zami received his education successively at Dar al-Ulum Deoband, India (1952), al-Azhar University, Cairo (M.A. 1955), and University of Cambridge (Ph.D. 1966). At the time of writing the book above he was Professor Emeritus at King Sa'ud University (Riyadh) where he also chaired the department of Islamic Studies. He served as curator of the National Public Library of Qatar; Visiting Scholar at University of Michigan (Ann Arbor); Visiting Scholar at St. Cross College (University of Oxford); Visiting Scholar at University of Colorado (Boulder). In 1980 he was the recipient of the prestigous King Faisal International Award for Islamic Studies.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Qu'ran was written by humans at the dictation of another human - there is no proof other than say so - that it is the word of the divine

I believe that the only way we can know God is through His Manifestations and They tell us the Quran is the Word of God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Here is a source i found for information on the Qur'an from what appears to be a reputable source.

The History of the Qur'anic Text From Revelation to Compilation
By Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'zami

The book is available free for download. Link provided below.
https://www.kalamullah.com/history-of-the-quranic-text.html

"A catalogue of ancient and contemporary attacks on the Qur'an, this expansive book provides unique insights into the holy text's immaculate preservation throughout its history, as well as exploring many of the accusations levelled against it."

About the author:

Muhammad Mustafa Al-A'zami received his education successively at Dar al-Ulum Deoband, India (1952), al-Azhar University, Cairo (M.A. 1955), and University of Cambridge (Ph.D. 1966). At the time of writing the book above he was Professor Emeritus at King Sa'ud University (Riyadh) where he also chaired the department of Islamic Studies. He served as curator of the National Public Library of Qatar; Visiting Scholar at University of Michigan (Ann Arbor); Visiting Scholar at St. Cross College (University of Oxford); Visiting Scholar at University of Colorado (Boulder). In 1980 he was the recipient of the prestigous King Faisal International Award for Islamic Studies.

I can’t thank you enough for this book. If you ever come across others like it please let me know even I will buy them. I’m familiar with the story of Islam but I always like to have more sources regarding the accurate history of Islam as there are so many who peddle false information.

Thank you again very much.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It would be helpful whenever the media report a terrorist attack if they include a disclaimer quoting the Quran’s opposition to murder and that all such attacks are directly in violation of the Quran itself.

That would definitely go a long way to isolating these terrorists as not being true Muslims and not representing Islam and making it clear that they act alone. It could also stifle anti Muslim hatred as people need to know these acts are prompted by politics nothing else.

 

[dybmh]

Thank you again very much.

You are very welcome.

whenever the media report a terrorist attack if they include a disclaimer quoting the Quran’s opposition to murder

It's a brilliant idea.

 

[ManSinha]

They tell us the Quran is the Word of God

And therein lies the conundrum for me - if you fail to see the irony in this then fine

I had posted this exact same line of argument in another post

In today's tech world - data transmission is accomplished preferably through interfaces without a human keying it in (eg as temperature, blood pressure is measured in a clinic or hospital - it is transmitted into the electronic record without human touch) simply because human touch is a known proven source of error

God is supposedly all powerful and all knowing

God gave the knowledge to Muhammad who was illiterate

Muhammad then dictated / related the knowledge to other human beings who presumably wrote it down

Why did god not choose a literate messenger or make Muhammad literate with a snap of his godly fingers (if god has fingers)

If you cannot explain that other than to assert "Well it is not so in case of the Qu'ran" then we are done and all you are doing is deluding yourself and attempting to be an apologetic

 

[loverofhumanity]

And therein lies the conundrum for me - if you fail to see the irony in this then fine

I had posted this exact same line of argument in another post

In today's tech world - data transmission is accomplished preferably through interfaces without a human keying it in (eg as temperature, blood pressure is measured in a clinic or hospital - it is transmitted into the electronic record without human touch) simply because human touch is a known proven source of error

God is supposedly all powerful and all knowing

God gave the knowledge to Muhammad who was illiterate

Muhammad then dictated / related the knowledge to other human beings who presumably wrote it down

Why did god not choose a literate messenger or make Muhammad literate with a snap of his godly fingers (if god has fingers)

If you cannot explain that other than to assert "Well it is not so in case of the Qu'ran" then we are done and all you are doing is deluding yourself and attempting to be an apologetic

This is what I believe but I respect that you differ.......

God does as He please. Muhammad was chosen by God as no other was able to bear the Message directly from God. The Prophets of God are pre existent and not born here at conception like we are. Their souls are of a different substance capable of direct revelation from God. No other humans, although they like to claim it are able to receive direct revelations from God except only a very small handful such as Muhammad, Christ, Krishna, Baha’u’llah and so on.

It is not for God’s servants to test God but for a him to test His servants.

The Prophets of God both bodily and spiritually are perfect which is why They were chosen. As you say humans are imperfect. The Prophets were perfect Beings unlike us Who’s Souls were prepared in another world before being born here so as to prepare it to receive revelation direct from God.

No human being is able to receive revelation direct from God. Only the Prophets.

 

[dybmh]

Why did god not choose a literate messenger or make Muhammad literate with a snap of his godly fingers

It's a pefectly logical question. It's a question that has been asked in many forms and in many threads here in this forum. In a few of these threads i have offered my input; sometimes my input has been more elequant than others. If you would like to read the details of my answer, please send me a message and i will send you links to my relevant posts on this topic.

However, since you asked, i will answer eventhough the answer is not at all satisfying.

You asked "why didn't God chose someone who was literate or perform a miracle making Muhammad instantly literate?"

The simple answer is: if God exists; then God chose not to do it that way.

I am sorry that it is not a very helpful or satisfying answer.

 

[ManSinha]

The Prophets were perfect Beings unlike us Who’s Souls were prepared in another world before being born here so as to prepare it to receive revelation direct from God.

Those are some tall claims (souls prepared in another world) - where is the proof of this other than "It must be so because it is so written and they said so" - circular argument as alluded to previously

In Buddhism with the re births of the Bodhisattva - the enlightened soul - a line can be drawn that traces a path to the enlightened birth -

Is there anything similar to support your statement?

 

[ManSinha]

You asked "why didn't God chose someone who was literate or perform a miracle making Muhammad instantly literate?"

The simple answer is: if God exists; then God chose not to do it that way.

@dybmh - I already discounted that from being accepted

If you cannot explain that other than to assert "Well it is not so in case of the Qu'ran" then we are done

As you said

I am sorry that it is not a very helpful or satisfying answer.

 

[dybmh]

@ManSinha , FYI, I don't think everyone shares the concept of Prophets as described in post 135. The prophets in the Old Testament were far from perfect.

 

[ManSinha]

except only a very small handful such as Muhammad, Christ, Krishna, Baha’u’llah and so on.

Here you go - equating Baha'u'llah with Muhammad, Christ and Krishna

Christ, it is said, performed miracles, so that people would know his connection to the lord

Krishna revealed that he and he alone was the all encompassing lord of the Universe - to multiple people on multiple occasions

What did Baha'u'llah do?