What modern ideas? :sarcastic The article explains the Islamic law on divorce. Thanks, we don't need the so called "modern ideas" to fit the Qur'an with them.I have to agree. Reading the article from Islamweb, it seems that there are unfair differences in the rights of men and women to divorce in Islam. For women:In the case that the husband is at fault and the woman is interested in divorce, she can petition a judge for divorce, with cause. She would be required to offer proof that her husband had not fulfilled his marital responsibilities. If the woman had specified certain conditions that are Islamically accepted in her marriage contract, which were not met by the husband, she could obtain a conditional divorce.But the man is not required to petition a judge or provide proof, apparently. All he has to do is declare his intentions to divorce and abstain from sexual relations for 3 months. The article admits men have greater divorce rights than women, but says this is because men are leaders, not because women are inferior:
Thus, it is clear that there is a 'degree' of difference with regards to the rights of men and women in divorce, and that the greater right that men were given is due to their being the leaders and financial supporters of the household. This, however, does not mean that women are inferior to men or that they are second-class human beings.Men have greater rights, and they are the financial supporters, and they are the leaders. Women have fewer rights, and they are not the leaders, but that doesn't mean they are second-class human beings .... hmmm ....
It seems to me like the article wants fairness and equality, but it is constrained by the verses from the Qur'an. So the article tries as hard as it can to fit the Qur'an and modern ideas of equality together, like a man trying to squeeze into an old suit that no longer fits him, but it's bursting at the seams.
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The qur'an
- Thread starter Autodidact
- Start date
I agree with you and in this case I believe ignoring is the best policy, Starsoul...or we can report her (countless) posts of trolling.
I had similar feelings when I was Christian. But I guess it is how you look at it. The greatest theme I find in the Quran is God's mersy and forgivness. We say it several times a day in our prayers; ALLAH most forgiving, most merciful. And that Allah has said from the begining His mercy will be far greater than his wrath. I know how forgiving I am. I am just a person. I can't imagine how forgiving Allah must be considering He must be greater in forgiveness and mercy than I am.And there are people far greater in forgiveness than me...
In eastern philosophy aren't you supposed to try to give up the "self"? Isn't that submission? Isn't submission acceptance? Isn't that the path to peace within our selves?
No. Actually what makes many women seek the judge's verdict is that their husbands refuse to divorce them...which indicates that they are basically bad men, anyway so these women obtain divorce by the court. Note the difference if the husband is at fault or not. And what makes other women seek khul' over Talaq is that they get exhausted of the Talaq cases (that seek to prove that the husband is at fault which takes long time)), so they usually shift it to khul' case which is much easier but they have to give up the dowry.
So the woman doesn't need the husband's consent at all, on the contrary, he is forced on divorce by the court.
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kai
ragamuffin
Then is what you are describing different than a Khul agreement?
see here:
Questions on Islam | Unable to accept the khula from wife.
Kai, this is the case when it's done in a friendly way...however the wife can get divorce/khul' by the court when the husband refuses...
From Islamonline:
“Yes, Khul` has to be resorted to at the consent and agreement of both spouses because the wife is supposed to pay money back to the husband in return for the dissolution of marriage. Thus the spouses have to agree on that sum of money, when it will be paid, etc.
However, the wife has another option should the husband does not agree to go for Khul’, that is to file a case in the court and resort to the Muslim Qadi (judge). If she has an excuse then she releases herself by paying back the dowry to her husband and the Qadi compels him to let her go. Or she might have the Islamic ground for divorce without paying him back the money, in which case the Qadi will separate them. Or she might not have any reason for separation, in which case the Qadi is supposed to try to solve the problem and bring peace and reconciliation between the couple. If all possible means to bring about reconciliation prove to be of no avail, then the Qadi should compel him to divorce her or release her after taking his money back.”
Allaah provides general guidelines for the process of divorce with emphasis on both parties upholding the values of justice and kindness in formalising the end to their marriage (see [Quran 2: 224-237] for general guidelines regarding divorce).
Allaah encourages the husband and wife to appoint arbitrators as the first step to aid in reconciliation in the process of divorce. If the reconciliation step fails, both the man and woman are guaranteed the right to divorce as established in the Quran, but the difference lies in the procedure for each one. When a divorce is initiated by the man, it is known as Talaaq.
The pronouncement by the husband may be verbal or written, but once made, there is to be a waiting period of three months ('Iddah) during which there can be no sexual relations, even though the two are living under the same roof.
The waiting period helps to prevent hasty terminations due to anger and allows both parties time to reconsider as well as to see if the wife is pregnant. If the wife is pregnant, the waiting period is lengthened until she delivers. At any point during this time, the husband and wife are free to resume their conjugal relationship, thereby ending the divorce process. During this waiting period, the husband remains financially responsible for the support of his wife.
The divorce initiated by the wife is known as Khul' (if the husband is not at fault) and requires that the wife return her dowry to end the marriage because she is the 'contract-breaker'. In the instance of Talaaq, where the husband is the 'contract-breaker', he must pay the dowry in full in cases where all or part of it was deferred, or allow the wife to keep all of it if she has already been given it in full.
In the case that the husband is at fault and the woman is interested in divorce, she can petition a judge for divorce, with cause. She would be required to offer proof that her husband had not fulfilled his marital responsibilities. If the woman had specified certain conditions that are Islamically accepted in her marriage contract, which were not met by the husband, she could obtain a conditional divorce.
This is from the link I posted before...just to make sure you didn't miss it. Divorce in Islam-Islamweb.net -English
From Islamonline:
“Yes, Khul` has to be resorted to at the consent and agreement of both spouses because the wife is supposed to pay money back to the husband in return for the dissolution of marriage. Thus the spouses have to agree on that sum of money, when it will be paid, etc.
However, the wife has another option should the husband does not agree to go for Khul’, that is to file a case in the court and resort to the Muslim Qadi (judge). If she has an excuse then she releases herself by paying back the dowry to her husband and the Qadi compels him to let her go. Or she might have the Islamic ground for divorce without paying him back the money, in which case the Qadi will separate them. Or she might not have any reason for separation, in which case the Qadi is supposed to try to solve the problem and bring peace and reconciliation between the couple. If all possible means to bring about reconciliation prove to be of no avail, then the Qadi should compel him to divorce her or release her after taking his money back.”
Allaah provides general guidelines for the process of divorce with emphasis on both parties upholding the values of justice and kindness in formalising the end to their marriage (see [Quran 2: 224-237] for general guidelines regarding divorce).
Allaah encourages the husband and wife to appoint arbitrators as the first step to aid in reconciliation in the process of divorce. If the reconciliation step fails, both the man and woman are guaranteed the right to divorce as established in the Quran, but the difference lies in the procedure for each one. When a divorce is initiated by the man, it is known as Talaaq.
The pronouncement by the husband may be verbal or written, but once made, there is to be a waiting period of three months ('Iddah) during which there can be no sexual relations, even though the two are living under the same roof.
The waiting period helps to prevent hasty terminations due to anger and allows both parties time to reconsider as well as to see if the wife is pregnant. If the wife is pregnant, the waiting period is lengthened until she delivers. At any point during this time, the husband and wife are free to resume their conjugal relationship, thereby ending the divorce process. During this waiting period, the husband remains financially responsible for the support of his wife.
The divorce initiated by the wife is known as Khul' (if the husband is not at fault) and requires that the wife return her dowry to end the marriage because she is the 'contract-breaker'. In the instance of Talaaq, where the husband is the 'contract-breaker', he must pay the dowry in full in cases where all or part of it was deferred, or allow the wife to keep all of it if she has already been given it in full.
In the case that the husband is at fault and the woman is interested in divorce, she can petition a judge for divorce, with cause. She would be required to offer proof that her husband had not fulfilled his marital responsibilities. If the woman had specified certain conditions that are Islamically accepted in her marriage contract, which were not met by the husband, she could obtain a conditional divorce.
This is from the link I posted before...just to make sure you didn't miss it. Divorce in Islam-Islamweb.net -English
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SLAMH
Active Member
Read the Islamic history carefully and you will find that they have done things Qura'n itself declares clearly the prohibition of it. In this sense, there was no way to use Qura'n to justify it, even though they did it.
Just trying to point that it wasn't Quran in all cases.
Read again, and you will notice that Qura'n itself brought up justice and equality in some situations. Indeed, it wasn't all bad !!!!.
Then, is it Qura'n or Muslims ?
SLAMH
Active Member
Ok, Ms.Idealism. I know that you have a great potential to argue, and equally you are willing to maintain your anti-Islamic attitude by ignoring and jumping over the points. So far I didn't see that you made a coherent and intelligence approach that is worth a response. When you make one, I will be glad to reply to you and refute whatever you claim.
Slavery is only allowed in the warfare, and there are many restrictions and limitation to it and even there are commands by which slaves can free themselves.
For no doubt, you didn't read any thing. GO back and read, then make a good point and then I will be glad to respond to you.
The funny thing that Johnny himself is talking to me now.
Please infidels lived with Muslims for centuries and they weren't slaves, you better have back up for this.
savethedreams
Active Member
Sense you all guys are Muslim I just quoted all of you, in the Bibe it speak of 'god is love' 1.7 million times, not only that it gaves stories of horrible people who were forgave in Gods eyes. Look at David (peace be on to him).
Saying Allah is merciful is good, but mercy is not always loving, mercy is sympathy not empathy. But is Allah really merciful? is there any example to show how merciful he is in the Koran .... all I see is how quickly he will throw your *** in hell (not the jewish hell).
No, in eastern philosophy you do 'good things' expecting to die and that it. You DO NOT do it 'because god says so', its all comes from what I see, respecting nature and being part of it as much as possible. Some eastern philosophy does give up 'self' but not the way you see it, you need a little more study, NO PUN , if you really feel that, that kinda like trying to compare the 'submission' to islam which is totally different.
In the powerful words of a wise man "you will know the truth by the works of the people" praying 5 times and day and killing/cursing/lying to 2 people a day make the 5 ritual mundane prayers absolute.
Are muslims allowed to poor out there heart in prayer, or is there a routine all the time which doesn't allow them room for that? I haven't heard of a muslim tell another muslim who was going through a hard time 'pray to allah he will help you' I have heard a christian tell a non-muslim, atheist, buddhist, etc to just pray because god loves them all. ..... then I look in the Koran under non-believers.
SLAMH
Active Member
What is the point of this ?
Have you read the entire Qura'n ?
That is an opinion.
I don't understand.
So all Muslims are Killer !!!, thanks.
How many Muslims do you know ?
savethedreams
Active Member
I have read the entire Koran, Yes, I don't understand coming from the background I am from. The religions I study is so similar but Muslims seem more restrictive and ritual. I don't question most of the similarities, which is most of them. Maybe there is something I don't understand and NO i didn't say muslims are killers that is a stereotype that is wrong, I'm saying it aggressive and not humanitarian enough. Yes I know muslims.
SLAMH
Active Member
Then, you should have come across the story of prophet Moses with his folk, and how many faults they done and how Allah was patient, giving them chances and forgiving them many times.
You should have noticed that Qura'n always talks about the eternity of the heaven, and never reveal the eternity of hell which give a sense that hell could be just a purifying stage for believers and non-believers and then it might go into extinction.
I believe it is just because it is different.
No, I'm not an aggressive.
I think this justifies your generalization.
savethedreams
Active Member
I just seen a video that someone send me, it was a muslim speaker, i have respect now. I do believe in 'keep testing the faith as it befits you' , We both agree on christ, idolatry etc. We disagree on 'sexuality' but everything besides that Judaism and muslims agree, as well as myself.
i still don't get the difference between Judaism and Islam, only one I seen is 2 1.)dualisc view of satan, heaven and hell. 2.) Prophet mohammed as being a messenger.
I am wowed at your religious beliefs, sorry for anything I have to attack it, but I do 'keep testing the faith as it befits you'.
So I have a questions, If a man who doesn't accept Islam, but accepts God, He doesn't accept muslims faith nor Mohammed, his good deeds outweigh his bad deeds tremendously, he has not violated a 'sin' or 'commandment' in christian faith, judaism faith (noahic) or islam. He not a thief, liar, etc. Does he get into Paradise? I have heard that no matter what good you do, if you don't become muslim you will go to hell, i don't believe in hell personally, but I believe in paradise.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
therefore my claim remains unrefuted.
Yeah, I'm idealistic. I think slavery is wrong. Call me crazy.
Slavery is allowed in warfare, which Muslims are supposed to carry to every infidel nation until they are conquered and submit to Islam. Slaves may be captured in war. However, their children remain slaves, and may be bought and sold.
Do you think that is right or wrong? In your view?
Or allow my points to go unrefuted; it's up to you.
You're claiming that slavery is legal in the U.S. today?
You are denying that Muslim slave traders captured human beings from every surrounding country for centuries and sold them to each other as well as to foreigners? Do you honestly need me to document the horrible, tragic history of the Arab/Muslim slave trade? Because I am happy to do so, if you denying that it happened.
kai
ragamuffin
good question a little like what came first the chicken or the egg?
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
What does the qur'an say about women?
First, the qur'an is written to men. It does not even address women as people who need to hear God's word.
When discussing women, what does it say?
2:223 Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like.
2:228 Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status.
4:11 The share of the male shall be twice that of a female.
4:24 And also forbidden married women, except for those you have taken in war as slaves.
4:3 you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession.
4:34 If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them.
65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waitingperiod and count the waitingperiod accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. [you may marry pre-pubescent girls.]
2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed.
4:43 O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith).
12:28 Lo! this is of the guile of you women. Lo! the guile of you is very great.
Those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, such are owners of the Fire; they will abide therein - a hapless journey's end!--64:10
64:14 O ye who believe! Lo! among your wives and your children there are enemies for you, therefor beware of them.
First, the qur'an is written to men. It does not even address women as people who need to hear God's word.
When discussing women, what does it say?
2:223 Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like.
2:228 Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status.
4:11 The share of the male shall be twice that of a female.
4:24 And also forbidden married women, except for those you have taken in war as slaves.
4:3 you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession.
4:34 If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them.
65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waitingperiod and count the waitingperiod accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. [you may marry pre-pubescent girls.]
2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed.
4:43 O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith).
12:28 Lo! this is of the guile of you women. Lo! the guile of you is very great.
Those who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, such are owners of the Fire; they will abide therein - a hapless journey's end!--64:10
64:14 O ye who believe! Lo! among your wives and your children there are enemies for you, therefor beware of them.
savethedreams
Active Member
I hate when people say "your taking it out of context" and don't fully explain the entire context.
The Quran is sent to all people, and it addresses both men and women.
35. For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah.s praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
71. The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.
195. And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards."
97. Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.
26. Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honorable.
The Holy Quran - Yusuf Ali Translation
That of course is aside from other verses which are directed to people in general.
35. For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah.s praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
71. The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.
195. And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards."
97. Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.
26. Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honorable.
The Holy Quran - Yusuf Ali Translation
That of course is aside from other verses which are directed to people in general.
savethedreams
Active Member
66:5 "If he [Muhammad] divorce you, will give him in your stead wives better than you, submissive (to Allah), believing, pious, penitent, devout, inclined to fasting, widows and maids."
4:11 "To the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half."
4:15 "As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them."
40:20 "And if ye wish to exchange one wife for another...."
4:34 "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them."
If its out of context put it back into context (peace be onto him)
4:11 "To the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half."
4:15 "As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them."
40:20 "And if ye wish to exchange one wife for another...."
4:34 "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them."
If its out of context put it back into context (peace be onto him)