The qur'an

[A-ManESL]

The overall context is that equality and justice and righteousness must be maintained, both in the absolute sense and in the relative. In the absolute sense, it is in relation to God for he is the only Absolute and in the relative sense it is in context of the society which is not absolute but has varying standards of what is right and what is wrong.

As an aside it is so sad that people like Autodidact always chooses verses that seemingly reinforce their point of view despite knowing that there are verses in the Quran which talk about equality between genders. I previously remember quoting her the verse 3:195 of the Quran "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another" which she doesn't quote because it does not fit in her twisted version of Islam.

Regards

 

[MathewJames]

NO i didn't say muslims are killers that is a stereotype that is wrong, I'm saying it aggressive and not humanitarian enough. Yes I know muslims.

Personally, I have never met an aggressive Muslim. I see them as being very non-aggressive and extrememly forgiving.

IMO, the most pushy and aggressive religious people are Christians.

 

[SLAMH]

] 1.)dualisc view of satan, heaven and hell.

Can you talk a bit about this one ?

sorry for anything I have to attack it, but I do 'keep testing the faith as it befits you'.

As long as you say something valuable and valid, I have no problem with it.

So I have a questions, If a man who doesn't accept Islam, but accepts God, He doesn't accept muslims faith nor Mohammed,

Let me just make a correction .

Since you are looking for an answer from Islam's perspective, then the part I highlighted seems not to be feasible. How can someone accepts God without being commited to god's will which is to be from Islamic view is to accept Islam because Islam is revealed by God and actually accepting it equates accepting God.

I don't, but I don't think it does work.

his good deeds outweigh his bad deeds tremendously, he has not violated a 'sin' or 'commandment' in christian faith, judaism faith (noahic) or islam. He not a thief, liar, etc. Does he get into Paradise? I have heard that no matter what good you do, if you don't become muslim you will go to hell,

The general view in Islam is that everyone who doesn't accept Islam will be punished in hell. However, I can say infidels are subjected to hell, whilst I can't say because A is infidel then we will go to hell. Basically, you can generalize, though you still can't specify.

 

[A-ManESL]

So I have a questions, If a man who doesn't accept Islam, but accepts God, He doesn't accept muslims faith nor Mohammed, his good deeds outweigh his bad deeds tremendously, he has not violated a 'sin' or 'commandment' in christian faith, judaism faith (noahic) or islam. He not a thief, liar, etc. Does he get into Paradise? I have heard that no matter what good you do, if you don't become muslim you will go to hell, i don't believe in hell personally, but I believe in paradise.

Some quotes from the Quran regarding other faiths:

Quote:
Those who believe and those who are Jews, Christians and Sabeans,[in fact] anyone who believes in God and the Last Day, and actshonorably will receive their earnings from their Lord: no fear will lieupon them nor need they feel saddened.-2:62

Quote:
[But] they are not all alike: among the followers of earlier revelation there are upright people, who recite God's messages throughout the night, and prostrate themselves [before Him]. They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and vie with one another in doing good works: and these are among the righteous.-3:113-114

Quote:
Nonetheless, those who believe in- the prophets who dated for back in the past and those who profess Judaism and the various sects of the Sabeites and of the Sabaeans and the Christians and those who fall in line with the prophet Muhammad; whoever believes in Allah, and acknowledges the truth of Resurrection and Judgement and imprints his deeds with wisdom and piety, shall Heaven reward them for their homage thereto, and no fear nor dread shall fall upon them nor shall they come to grief.-5:69

Regarding faiths not mentioned in the Quran:

1. "Further he (the scholar Shariati quoting Hazrat Ali RA, the cousin and son in law of the Prophet) makes a mention that Prophet of Islam (i.e. Prophet Muhammad pbuh) allowed to take Jaziah from the Zoroastrian and treated them as people of the book." From the book: Sociology of religions: perspectives of Ali Shariati By Mir Mohammed Ibrahim.

2."...once the Moslems had grasped that Hinduism was not equivalent to the paganism of the Arabs; Hindus were then assimilated to the "people of the book", that is to the monotheists of the Western Semitic traditions." From the book: Understanding Islam By Frithjof Schuon.

3. "Not only have some of the most authoritative Muslim scholars during the Mughal period called the Hindus Ahl-e-Kitab, belonging to the chain of prophets preceding Islam and begining with Adam, but also some of the Muslim Indian commentators have considered the prophet Dhu'l-i-Kifl mentioned in the Quran to be the Buddha of Kifl (Kapilavastu) and the Fig tree of Surah 95 to be the Bodhi tree under which the Buddha recieved his illumination."- From the book: Sufi essays by Seyyed Hossein Nasr. SUNY Press, 1972. Pg 132

In essence, it is not a question of which religion is better then which. (Thats a silly question anyway, I feel). If you are a righteous person who is doing good and living in peace and harmony with God, in a certain sense you are already following the path, call it dharma or Islam.

Quote:
Tell them, "It is all the same whether you call Him God or the Beneficent. All the good names belong to Him." - 17:110

 

[Sahar]

Regardless kai I absolutely agree, the leaders of Banu Umayya and later on have absolutely nothing to do with Islam. They took Shariah and spat on it. They are innovators and despots who changed the ideas of Islam to its very core.

May Allah forgive you!! How come you say this about people who were the reason for millions of people to become Muslims and the Islamic history witnessed bright flourishing in their age! Maybe there were mistakes made by some, but it's extremely grave and unjust to say "they have absolutely nothing to do with Islam"...I can't believe seeing such claim coming from you!!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The greatest theme I find in the Quran is God's mersy and forgivness. We say it several times a day in our prayers; ALLAH most forgiving, most merciful. And that Allah has said from the begining His mercy will be far greater than his wrath. I know how forgiving I am. I am just a person. I can't imagine how forgiving Allah must be considering He must be greater in forgiveness and mercy than I am.

Well this is actually a very interesting point, TJ73. But does the Qur'an really describe a God who is more merciful and forgiving than you, in every respect?

Consider what the Qur'an says about unbelievers / disbelievers. I don't have time at the moment but I'm sure you can read for yourself many verses which talk about how if a person dies as a disbeliever, he/she will be punished in Hell with "fire" and "shackles" and so forth, and they will not receive forgiveness. Hell is also the punishment for a person who believes in Islam, but then no longer believes due to an opening of their "heart" to disbelief. The Qur'an also says that God causes some people to question the Qur'an, and those people will be put on trial for the crime of questioning in the next life.

If it was your decision, would you really put me in shackles and send me to fire, and not forgive me even if I asked for forgiveness, for eternity, because I do not believe in the Qur'an? I am sure that you have shortcomings as a human being, but I think you are probably much more merciful, more forgiving -- indeed, more reasonable -- than that.

 

[SLAMH]

therefore my claim remains unrefuted.

No matter how loud you speak, a deaf one will still not be able to hear you.

Yeah, I'm idealistic. I think slavery is wrong. Call me crazy.

No I can't call you crazy.

Slavery is allowed in warfare, which Muslims are supposed to carry to every infidel nation until they are conquered and submit to Islam.

explain the part I highlighted.

Slaves may be captured in war. However, their children remain slaves, and may be bought and sold.

If the true rules of Islam are implemented, they won't be slaves by the time they get children.

Anyway, I will try to look for the part of their children.

Do you think that is right or wrong? In your view?

Wrong.

Or allow my points to go unrefuted; it's up to you.

I don't see the connection between this

and

For no doubt, you didn't read any thing. GO back and read, then make a good point and then I will be glad to respond to you.

this !!!.

You're claiming that slavery is legal in the U.S. today?

Slavery still exist today, call it slavery or choose not to call it, and it is even worse than slavery.

I'll be glad to make some sort of comparison.

You are denying that Muslim slave traders captured human beings from every surrounding country for centuries and sold them to each other as well as to foreigners? Do you honestly need me to document the horrible, tragic history of the Arab/Muslim slave trade? Because I am happy to do so, if you denying that it happened.

First, do you want to talk about Islam or Muslims ?

Secondly, I'm not from Arabs.

thirdly, you can also and honestly document the horrible, tragic history of the European or .... or .Atlantic.... slave trade?

 

[savethedreams]

Some quotes from the Quran regarding other faiths:

Quote:
Those who believe and those who are Jews, Christians and Sabeans,[in fact] anyone who believes in God and the Last Day, and actshonorably will receive their earnings from their Lord: no fear will lieupon them nor need they feel saddened.-2:62

Quote:
[But] they are not all alike: among the followers of earlier revelation there are upright people, who recite God's messages throughout the night, and prostrate themselves [before Him]. They believe in God and the Last Day, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and vie with one another in doing good works: and these are among the righteous.-3:113-114

Quote:
Nonetheless, those who believe in- the prophets who dated for back in the past and those who profess Judaism and the various sects of the Sabeites and of the Sabaeans and the Christians and those who fall in line with the prophet Muhammad; whoever believes in Allah, and acknowledges the truth of Resurrection and Judgement and imprints his deeds with wisdom and piety, shall Heaven reward them for their homage thereto, and no fear nor dread shall fall upon them nor shall they come to grief.-5:69

Regarding faiths not mentioned in the Quran:

1. "Further he (the scholar Shariati quoting Hazrat Ali RA, the cousin and son in law of the Prophet) makes a mention that Prophet of Islam (i.e. Prophet Muhammad pbuh) allowed to take Jaziah from the Zoroastrian and treated them as people of the book." From the book: Sociology of religions: perspectives of Ali Shariati By Mir Mohammed Ibrahim.

2."...once the Moslems had grasped that Hinduism was not equivalent to the paganism of the Arabs; Hindus were then assimilated to the "people of the book", that is to the monotheists of the Western Semitic traditions." From the book: Understanding Islam By Frithjof Schuon.

3. "Not only have some of the most authoritative Muslim scholars during the Mughal period called the Hindus Ahl-e-Kitab, belonging to the chain of prophets preceding Islam and begining with Adam, but also some of the Muslim Indian commentators have considered the prophet Dhu'l-i-Kifl mentioned in the Quran to be the Buddha of Kifl (Kapilavastu) and the Fig tree of Surah 95 to be the Bodhi tree under which the Buddha recieved his illumination."- From the book: Sufi essays by Seyyed Hossein Nasr. SUNY Press, 1972. Pg 132

In essence, it is not a question of which religion is better then which. (Thats a silly question anyway, I feel). If you are a righteous person who is doing good and living in peace and harmony with God, in a certain sense you are already following the path, call it dharma or Islam.

Quote:
Tell them, "It is all the same whether you call Him God or the Beneficent. All the good names belong to Him." - 17:110

Well honestly, I have read many scriptures about 'unbelievers' I don't need to quote them all i just ask to explain, from what i READ those who NOT believe or unbelievers will go to 'hell' , so i'm an unbeliever of Islam..

 

[SLAMH]

good question a little like what came first the chicken or the egg?

Kinda of disagree.

Suppose we have two people, one is A and another is defined to be C.

A killed C, though to defend himself and to justify what he did, he says,

" I killed C because ........"whatever stupid reasons to be given here".

By this reasoning he gave, C actually turned to be the offender after being the victim or no one would be able to determine who is the victim and who is the offender.

Does this sound reasonable ?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

SLAMH can you quote a verse from the Qur'an which actually demonstrates your claim that slavery was only allowed in warfare? I quoted verses in post #250 that do not lend themselves to this interpretation, at all.

 

[Autodidact]

The overall context is that equality and justice and righteousness must be maintained, both in the absolute sense and in the relative. In the absolute sense, it is in relation to God for he is the only Absolute and in the relative sense it is in context of the society which is not absolute but has varying standards of what is right and what is wrong.

Please provide this context then.

As an aside it is so sad that people like Autodidact always chooses verses that seemingly reinforce their point of view despite knowing that there are verses in the Quran which talk about equality between genders. I previously remember quoting her the verse 3:195 of the Quran "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another" which she doesn't quote because it does not fit in her twisted version of Islam.

Regards

Is that the only one you can fine? That's it?
No response to the numerous verses about how to oppress women that I posted?

 

[astarath]

The slaughtering of the infidels and the verses on apostasy are the ones I would love to hear an explanation on.

 

[YmirGF]

thirdly, you can also and honestly document the horrible, tragic history of the European or .... or .Atlantic.... slave trade?

A novel approach but one that simply doesn't work. Muslims are supposed to be the best of mankind. The favored of Allah. You do not do yourself any favors by comparing the much longer history of slavery practiced by Muslims to the shorter period of slavery practiced by non-Muslims.

Propagators of Islam in Africa often revealed a cautious attitude towards proselytizing because of its effect in reducing the potential reservoir of slaves.[86] The author Ronald Segal[87] distinguishes the Islamic slave trade from that of the Atlantic or European slave trade by highlighting the aspects of its duration and nature: "It began in the middle of the seventh century and survives today in Mauritania and Sudan. With the Islamic slave trade, we're talking of 14 centuries rather than four." Further, "whereas the gender ratio of slaves in the Atlantic trade was two males to every female, in the Islamic trade, it was two females to every male."

 

[Vendetta]

I think its somewhat unfair to use terrorist activiies and associate it with Islam. Quite obviously people take scriptural literally. Look at christian fanatics who shoort doctors at abortion clinics. Jesus didn't carry a gun or sword but christians did all in the nameof God. What makes the Quran problematic to others is we read it with modern thought without acknowledging that the Quran is an old text that may not be applicable in all of our lives.

 

[Sahar]

Ah, I see. I hope I don't win the lottery, then. I wouldn't want to "gain" too much "responsibility".

I don't know you are sarcastic to the idea of financial support of the family which is indeed a huge responsibility or to my choice of words. On the other hand, women have another huge responsibility, their biology and physiology prepare them for this responsibility every month since their puberty. It's completely unfair to overburden women by asking them to get pregnant, go through labour, and breastfeeding and at the same time to be responsible for providing a financial support for her husband :areyoucra and family. The woman shouldn't feel pressured or stressed to go through all this or to bear an additional overburdening responsibility. If she wants to go out and work, then this should be whenever she can and without any stress, unlike the husband who must search here and there to find a means of living. Secondly, no-one can deny the very unique and close emotional bond between the mother and her baby. She should be given the space to enjoy such bonding moments with her baby. Her child need her and she need to be close to him. Thus anything that can pressure her to give up such moments should be minimized as much as possible.
At the same time, Islam doesn't deny the woman's wish to be a doctor, a teacher, a scholar, a warrior :yes:, a minister or a business woman. Sometimes, it's necessary to excel in jobs like medicine, teaching, etc. My Islamic heritage showed us how Lady Khadija was a successful business woman, great wife and mother. How Lady Aisha was a scholar, a political activist, a poet and a physician. Rufayda; she practiced medicine during the prophet's time and later on, it's said she was provided with a special tent in the mosque of the prophet to treat the diseased and the wounded. Ash-Shifa' bint Abdullah was appointed by Umar Ibnil-Khattab as an administrator of the market in Madinah. The one who built the first world's university was a woman; Fatima Al-Fihr. Look at this great strong woman Khawla bint Al-Azwar:

Her name remained greatly unknown, until the battle of Ajnadin, not far from Jerusalem, where Derar (her brother) lost his spear, fell from his horse, and was taken prisoner. She donned a male knight's attire, took her arms and rode her mare through the Roman ranks, using her sword skillfully against whoever tried to stop her. The Muslim soldiers, and their leader Khalid, watched her with great admiration, presuming that she was a man.

The Arab Historian, Al Waqidi, tells us in his book "The conquering of Al Sham (greater Syria)" that: "In a battle that took place in Beit Lahia near Ajnadin, Khalid watched a knight, in black attire, with a big green shawl wrapped around his waist and covering his bust. That knight broke through the Roman ranks as an arrow. Khalid and the others followed him and joined battle, while the leader was wondering about the identity of the unknown knight."

Rafe' Bin Omeirah Al Taei was one of the fighters. He described how that knight scattered the enemy ranks, disappeared in their midst, reappeared after a while with blood dripping from his spear. He swerved again and repeated the deed fearlessly, several times. All the Muslim army was worried about him and prayed for his safety. Rafe' and others thought that he was Khalid, who had won great fame for his bravery and genius military plans. But suddenly Khalid appeared with a number of knights. Rafe' asked the leader: “Who is that knight? By God, he has no regard for his safety!"

Khalid answered that he didn't know the man, though he greatly admired his courage. He called on the arm to attack as one man and to make sure that they protect their hero(ine). They were fascinated as they watched the knight appear with a number of Roman knights chasing him. Then he would turn around and kill the nearest before resuming his attacks.

The Romans eventually lost the battle and fled, leaving many dead and wounded in the battlefield. Khalid looked for the knight until he found him. By then he was covered in blood. He praised his bravery and asked him to remove his veil. But the knight did not answer, and tried to break away. The soldiers wouldn't let him do that. And everyone asked him to reveal his identity.

When the knight found that there was no way to avoid that, he replied in a feminine voice: "My prince, I did not answer because I am shy. You are a great leader, and I am only a woman whose heart is burning."

"Who are you?" Khalid insisted.

"I am Khawla Bint Al Azwar. I was with the women accompanying the army, and when I learnt that the enemy captured my brother, I did what I did."

Khalid ordered his army to chase the fleeing Roman army, with Khawla leading the attack, looking in all directions for her brother...

In another battle in Ajnadin, Khawla's spear broke, and her mare was killed, and she found herself a prisoner. But she was astonished to find that the Romans attacked the women camp and captured several of them. Their leader gave the prisoners to his commanders, and order Khawla to be moved into his tent. She was furious, and decided that to die is more honorable than living in disgrace. She stood among the other women, and called them to fight for their freedom and honor or die. The others were enthusiastic to her plan. They took the tents' poles and pegs and attacked the Roman guards, keeping a formation of a tight circle, as she told them.

Khawla led the attack, killed the first guard with her pole, with the other women following her. According to Al Waqidi, they managed to kill 30 Roman knights, while Khawla was encouraging them with her verses, which in fact caused their blood to boil.

The Roman leader was infuriated by what happened, and led a detachment of his knights against the women, though he tried first to tempt them with many promises. He told Khawla that he planned to marry her and make her the first lady of Damascus. But she answered him calmly and with great contempt: "I wouldn't even accept you to be a shepherd of my camels! How do you expect me to degrade myself and live with you? I swear that I'll be the one to cut off your head for your insolence."

In the ensuing battle, the ladies proved their mettle, kept their grounds for some time, encouraging each other and driving off the attackers with their long poles. Suddenly, Khalid and the army reached the battlefield. In the ensuing fight, over 3.000 Romans were killed. The women who took part in the fighting were proud to say that Khawla killed five knights, including the leader that insulted her.

The women in my Islamic heritage were indeed strong and these women are my example. It's all about balance and priorities.

We can call this "subservience" or not, either way, it is clearly different from a philosophy which simply says that family duties should be divided based on talent and compromise, and wealth should be divided based on need and seniority, whether or not these principles correspond to traditional gender roles.

How would you divide wealth inheritance based on need? By this logic, inheritance would never be divided in an even manner because the sons' needs will vary much. You may give a son all the inheritance and deprive the other based on the logic of "need". But the Qur'an set a fixed standard as I said earlier to prevent any fights, any problems or any grudge.

I totally agree, it's about completing and helping each other. But, why is it necessary for men to receive twice as much as women in order to complete and help each other? I will probably receive the same inheritance as my sister, not twice as much. Will this interfere with me and my sister, and me and my wife, completing and helping each other? How?

And she can make her own money if she wants, as you said. So why not give this strong, independent woman her rightful share of the inheritance?

She already has her share but her responsibility to financially support her family members is much less than men.

I have no doubt at all that many people are quite happy being in (what I view as) "traditional" gender roles. All I am saying is, it's also possible to be happy in non-traditional situations as well. I have seen this firsthand. If a wife has a good job with a high salary, and she has expert knowledge in finance, and the husband is happy being a "full-time dad" then what is the problem?

We have a proverb that says every one shall sleep on the side that makes him comfortable. If you want to be a "full time dad", you are free but the Islamic law is not going to be formed based on exceptions.

I asked: Are you saying that it is always fair for parents to leave twice as much to male children? You cannot imagine a situation where this would be unfair?

Insha' Allah, there won't be unfairness.

 

[Autodidact]

The Quran is sent to all people, and it addresses both men and women.

35. For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah.s praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.

71. The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.

195. And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards."

97. Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.

26. Women impure are for men impure, and men impure for women impure and women of purity are for men of purity, and men of purity are for women of purity: these are not affected by what people say: for them there is forgiveness, and a provision honorable.

The Holy Quran - Yusuf Ali Translation

That of course is aside from other verses which are directed to people in general.

All people can have up to four wives? All people can have sex with their wives whenever they want? All people can take slaves a concubines? How would that work?

 

[Autodidact]

The overall context is that equality and justice and righteousness must be maintained, both in the absolute sense and in the relative.

Do you consider female inequality and slavery to be equal and just? If not, where do you get this "context."

As an aside it is so sad that people like Autodidact always chooses verses that seemingly reinforce their point of view despite knowing that there are verses in the Quran which talk about equality between genders. I previously remember quoting her the verse 3:195 of the Quran "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another" which she doesn't quote because it does not fit in her twisted version of Islam.

Regards

Sounds like all are equally rewarded in the afterlife, but meanwhile, in real life (the one we live in) there is no equality.

 

[SLAMH]

SLAMH can you quote a verse from the Qur'an which actually demonstrates your claim that slavery was only allowed in warfare? I quoted verses in post #250 that do not lend themselves to this interpretation, at all.

First, sorry for not reading your post before.

Anyway, I'd like to point first that the interpretation you made there is actually flawed for being a literal interpretation without any consider to the context in which these verses are put in. I'll show you how....

First,

16.75] Allah sets forth a parable: (consider) a slave, the property of another, (who) has no power over anything, and one whom We have granted from Ourselves a goodly sustenance so he spends from it secretly and openly; are the two alike? [emphasis added]

Here Allah talks about himself as the free and referring to the humankind as being slaves for him and not having the ability to control the events around them. Allah is the one who spend secretly and openly, and humankind they can't and if they do it is because Allah granted them with that.

One thing to note, Islam views all Humankind as being slaves for Allah, so we all slaves in this sense. We aren't slaves for each others.

Read the verse just after this one to see that Allah gave another example to distinguish between believers and non-believers.

[24.33] ... and do not compel yourslave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life;

This verse was revealed because Arabs before Islam used to force slave girls to do prostitution so that they earn money of that. SO it is actually the order by which Muslims aren't allowed anymore to force slave girls to do prostitution.

[90.12] And what will make you comprehend what the uphill road is?
[90.13] (It is) the setting free of a slave,
[90.14] Or the giving of food in a day of hunger

It could be an act of generosity if you do it without any force of commands that by which you have no choice other than to free them.

Regards.

 

[Autodidact]

Slavery is allowed in warfare, which Muslims are supposed to carry to every infidel nation until they are conquered and submit to Islam.

explain the part I highlighted.

Muslims should make war against non-Muslim countries and conquer them, in order to force Islam on the entire country. Those who do not convert (if they are "people of the book") may accept dhimmitude, submit to Muslim authority and pay the jizzya. Muslim conquerors may kill their opponents or enslave them, at their option. They usually chose to kill the men and enslave the women. If a person who is already a slave converts to Islam, this does not emancipate them.

 

[Autodidact]

If the true rules of Islam are implemented, they won't be slaves by the time they get children.

What rule is that? This is not correct. Slavery is permissible, and their is no rule that requires slaves to be freed. So what are you talking about? Also, their children are slaves as well.