The qur'an

[TJ73]

I have found that Allah,swt, guides us like children in that you will tell your children the great harm that may befall them when they ignore your advice and guidance. But reminds us constantly that He is most merciful and forgiving.

 

[Looncall]

This is your usual bias showing again. Why dont you quote verses which speak favorably of Jews as well and let the reader read them all and judge for him/herself. I think since verses such as 2:62, 5:69 dont suit your agenda you deliberately dont post them here.

If the vicious verses exist at all, the quran is exposed as evil, no matter how many favourable verses there may be.

 

[TJ73]

If the vicious verses exist at all, the quran is exposed as evil, no matter how many favourable verses there may be.

That is just not the case in Abrahamic faiths. Jew, Christians and Muslims generally view God as good and not evil even when he command something that seems evil to you or me. We generally see Him as all knowing and with a plan that includes some harsh commands, temper with mercy and forgiveness. ASk a Christian or Jew if they see the OT as exposed of evil because of "vicious" verses.

 

[Autodidact]

That is not what Islamic jurisprudence commands. It is what you wrongly think Islam teaches.

Support? You will note that I provided support for my assertions, and will provide more on request. A lot more.

 

[England my lionheart]

I have found that Allah,swt, guides us like children in that you will tell your children the great harm that may befall them when they ignore your advice and guidance. But reminds us constantly that He is most merciful and forgiving.

Doesn't seem to help much does it,1400 years for Islam and over 2000 for Christians and much more for Judaism,makes you wonder if its the Singer or the song

 

[Autodidact]

This is your usual bias showing again. Why dont you quote verses which speak favorably of Jews as well and let the reader read them all and judge for him/herself. I think since verses such as 2:62, 5:69 dont suit your agenda you deliberately dont post them here.

So the noble, perfect, brilliant qur'an is contradictory as well as intolerant? That's what I thought.

 

[Autodidact]

That is just not the case in Abrahamic faiths. Jew, Christians and Muslims generally view God as good and not evil even when he command something that seems evil to you or me. We generally see Him as all knowing and with a plan that includes some harsh commands, temper with mercy and forgiveness. ASk a Christian or Jew if they see the OT as exposed of evil because of "vicious" verses.

This thread is not about Christianity or Judaism (which I oppose on an equal opportunity basis in these forums, as I'm sure you've observed.) It's about the qur'an. How does it make the qur'an more noble or perfect if Christian scripture is gibberish?

 

[A-ManESL]

Support? You will note that I provided support for my assertions, and will provide more on request. A lot more.

What you continuously overlook that Muslims dont understand the Quran in the way you do. I am a Muslim and do not say the Jews are evil. Your opinion of the Quranic verses is what does not concern me or most of the Muslims. Perhaps you may call it your own version. In my understanding of Islam, the Quran does not say that Jews are any more good or evil then an average Muslim is.

I fail to understand what relevance your opinion has in the Muslim world as this is not standard Muslim opinion. The only purpose it serves is the glorification of your massive ego and the spread of hatred among non-Muslims and Muslims. I do not hold you essentially different from other fundamentalists which you seem keen to condemn.

 

[Autodidact]

What you continuously overlook that Muslims dont understand the Quran in the way you do.

Some do, some don't. They understand it all kinds of contradictory ways, because it is a confusing, impenetrable, contradictory accumulation of various religious traditions and ideas that makes no coherent sense. That is my point.

I am a Muslim and do not say the Jews are evil.

On the other hand, the qur'an, hadith, many Imams and millions of Muslims do. Do you deny this?

Your opinion of the Quranic verses is what does not concern me or most of the Muslims.

Of course not. I'm one of those untrustworthy, evil Jews, as well as an atheist. I am outside the Ummah, and my opinion, however correct, is entitled to no consideration.

Perhaps you may call it your own version. In my understanding of Islam, the Quran does not say that Jews are any more good or evil then an average Muslim is.

then perhaps you'd like to respond to the many verses that say different.

I fail to understand what relevance your opinion has in the Muslim world as this is not standard Muslim opinion.

What on earth is a "standard Muslim opinion? There is no such thing. There are only the many contradictory opinions of millions of Muslims. Would you like some Jew-hating quotes from some prominent ones?

The only purpose it serves is the glorification of your massive ego and the spread of hatred among non-Muslims and Muslims. I do not hold you essentially different from other fundamentalists which you seem keen to condemn.

Well anytime you advance past ad hominem attacks to address the actual verses that I quoted, we can begin a discussion to see whether I am right or wrong.

Apparently, quoting the qur'an is Islamophobic.

 

[YmirGF]

Apparently, quoting the qur'an is Islamophobic.

The troubling part about the Qur'an is that so many believe that it is the unerring word of God. The thing is drawing the line between literal interpretation and metaphorical interpretation and how much rose-tinting one has on their spectacles.

 

[astarath]

I find it interesting that the claim of NT theology to be the same as Islam or OT theology. What parallel does love your enemy in the NT have with death to the infidels in the Koran

 

[Autodidact]

A-Man assures me not to worry, actual Muslims don't read or don't believe the qur'an, so they don't actually hate Jews, despite the qur'an's many Jew-hating verses. I beg to differ:

Hadith:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).Sahih Muslim, 41:6985

Jews under a Caliphate can live as dhimmis:
The restrictions on dhimmis included: payment of higher taxes; at some locations, being forced to wear clothing or some othe insignia distinguishing them from Muslims; sometimes barred from holding public office, bearing arms or riding a horse; disqualified as witnesses in litigation involving Muslims; at some locations and times, dhimmis were prevented from repairing existing or erecting new places of worship. Proselytizing on behalf of any faith but Islam was barred. [wiki]

Following the Damascus affair, (1840) Pogroms spread through the Middle East and North Africa. Pogroms occurred in: Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jerusalem (1847), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901–02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901–07), Port Said (1903, 1908), Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891), Istanbul (1870, 1874), Buyukdere (1864), Kuzguncuk (1866), Eyub (1868), Edirne (1872), Izmir (1872, 1874).[82] There was a massacre of Jews in Baghdad in 1828.[83] There was another massacre in Barfurush in 1867.[83] In 1839, in the eastern Persian city of Meshed, a mob burst into the Jewish Quarter, burned the synagogue, and destroyed the Torah scrolls. Known as the Allahdad incident. It was only by forcible conversion that a massacre was averted. [wiki]

The Jewish quarter in Fez was almost destroyed by a Muslim mob in 1912.[83] There were Nazi-inspired pogroms in Algeria in the 1930s, and massive attacks on the Jews in Iraq and Libya in the 1940s (see Farhud). Pro-Nazi Muslims slaughtered dozens of Jews in Baghdad in 1941.[83] Standard antisemitic themes have become commonplace in the propaganda of Arab Islamic movements such as Hizbullah and Hamas, in the pronouncements of various agencies of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and even in the newspapers and other publications of Refah Partisi, the Turkish Islamic party whose head served as prime minister in 1996-97."[78]
The language of abuse is often quite strong. For example, the conventional epithets for Jews and Christians are apes and pigs, respectively. [wiki]

So, yeah, other than a few thousand dead Jews, Muslim anti-Semitism hasn't really been a problem.

Here's some recent quotes for you:

Egyptian daily Al-Arab Al-Yom, June 9, 1998
(article by Al-Sid Ali Al-Sid)

"As for the Jews today, there is no difference between rigid or flexible. They are all the same, the difference being whether they kill a person with a thick, hard-bladed knife or by placing him on the electric chair... it is possible to deter these swindlers and tricksters and foil their schemes..."

* Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, May 27, 1998
(article by retired Ambassador Muhammad Said al-Sayeed calling for the establishment of a Museum of the Crimes of Zionism) "The crimes of the Jews are worse than the crimes of the Nazis

Egyptian daily Al-Ahram, May 13, 1998
(article by Salama Ahmed Salama quoting a saying from the book of Dr. Abed Wahab Masiri regarding Israel's jubilee celebrations)

"There is a great Jewish plot to gain control of the world."

(That's all from one country in one year. Let's go find some more recent stuff from some other places.)

​

In an LBC television interview during the visit, Syrian Defence Minister Mustafa Talas made such remarks as: 'I want to stand in one place and kill the Jew standing before me. If every Arab kills a Jew, there won't be any Jews left at all. We will fight like the Hizballah fights against them in South Lebanon. From the Golan Front, of course - from any front where they (the Jews) are situated'. [2001]
The recently deceased grand sheikh of Al-Azhar, Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, who was the most respected cleric in the world among Sunni Muslims, called Jews "the enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs." Saudi sheikh Abd al-Rahman al-Sudayyis, imam of the principal mosque in the holiest city in Islam, Mecca, said in a sermon that Jews are "the scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs." Another Saudi sheikh, Ba'd bin Abdallah al-Ajameh al-Ghamidi, made the connection explicit: "The current behavior of the brothers of apes and pigs, their treachery, violation of agreements, and defiling of holy places ... is connected with the deeds of their forefathers during the early period of Islam--which proves the great similarity between all the Jews living today and the Jews who lived at the dawn of Islam." A 1996 Hamas publication says that today's Jews are bestial in spirit, and this is a manifestation of the punishment of their forefathers. In January 2007, Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas stated, "The sons of Israel are mentioned as those who are corrupting humanity on earth," referring to Qur'an 5:64.

from here.


​

In a poem he published in the Saudi daily Al-Jazirah , Saudi poet Sa'd Al-Bawardi portrays Hitler as merciful compared to the Jews, who are described as "apes" and "wild pigs."(8)

"You were merciful, oh Hitler.
"[That is my conclusion] when I see around me
"The cruel acts
"Of the descendants of apes.
"You were wise, oh Hitler
"To rid the world
"Of some of these wild pigs.
"[But] they have spawned a gang
"[Whose heart] is filled with blind hatred…
"Oh Hitler,
"The descendents of apes –
"None are more cruel and horrifying than they are…
"Their wars of destruction
"Are worse than the 'Holocaust.'
"Destruction of the world is their motto,
"And they are implementing it in practice
"In Gaza, in the Golan and in Lebanon.
"The descendents of apes are the cruelest creatures
"That mankind has ever known…

​

One of the 2002 Bali bombers, Amrozi bin Nurhasin, on trial in an Indonesian courtroom and headed toward execution, shouted out the message he wanted his crime to convey: “Jews: Remember Khaibar. The army of Muhammad is coming back to defeat you.” Khaibar, as I'm sure the Muslims here know, is a Muslim slaughter of Jews that was perpetrated 1,375 years ago.

"Sanabel, what do you want to do to help the Al-Aqsa Mosque?" Farfur asks on the children's program of Hamas's Al-Aqsa television station. "We want to fight." "And what else?" "Wipe out the Jews." Now Farfur, the cartoon character on Hamas's children's television program, is satisfied. Farfur is a carbon copy of Walt Disney's Mickey Mouse, but the Hamas version does something that Mickey would never do: He entertains children while propagating the murder of Jews.

Mahdi Amir Kamali appeared on an Iranian TV program on June 7,
2007, where he stated that the State of Israel had been founded on the
principles appearing in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. He added that
Zionism was based on the idea of Jewish racial superiority and on the
Jews’ desire to control world resources. He also said that The
Protocols were formerly a top-secret document written by the
founders of Zionism to control the world.

In a comedy broadcast on Iranian Channel 1 TV on March 23, 2007,
a stereotyped Jew appeared as a murderer and as Satan, representing
the forces of evil.
(This is pretty much daily fare there, and I can give you dozens of examples of this sort of thing.)

Better pause here before the post gets too long. I can supply as you as much contemporary Muslim Jew-hating propaganda as you can stomach.

​

​

 

[astarath]

If Islam doesn't believe it's teachings then what makes it Islam?

 

[Autodidact]

So, to summarize the thread so far:

The qur'an, hadith and actions of the prophet all permit slavery, direct Muslims how to get slaves and how to treat them. This was Allah's way of paving the way to prohibit slavery. Muslim slave traders dominated the world slave market for centuries and persist in some Muslim countries to this day, but this has nothing to do with the qur'an, hadith and prophet.

The qur'an creates a second-class status for women. Today, millions of Muslim women live as second-class citizens, even in some places as chattel, suffering physical mutilation, child marriage, denial of basic human rights. These two facts are completely unrelated.

The qur'an condemns Jews. Today Jew-hating is prevalent throughout the Muslim world. These two facts are completely unrelated.

In fact, there is no relationship between Islam and Muslims at all.

 

[astarath]

Don't forget the hadiths and koran teach death to the infidels and hundreds of Jews, Christians and other faiths face death at the hands of Islam every year but this is completely unrelated.

 

[croak]

So, to summarize the thread so far:

The qur'an, hadith and actions of the prophet all permit slavery, direct Muslims how to get slaves and how to treat them. This was Allah's way of paving the way to prohibit slavery. Muslim slave traders dominated the world slave market for centuries and persist in some Muslim countries to this day, but this has nothing to do with the qur'an, hadith and prophet.

As if nobody knew how to get a slave; of course they did. Except now there were more restrictions. And assuming wars against enemies of Islam ended and slaves earned their freedom or had no children, slavery would not exist. I don't think people expected that they would have enemies forever. That's the logic behind the argument that slavery would eventually die out as a result.

If you replaced the religion of Muslim slave traders with say, Christianity, or a pagan faith, the odds are they would have continued trading slaves. Slave trading by Arabs and others didn't start with Islam. There is a possibility that they were slightly more humane because they somewhat adhered to the Qur'an's limitations, or they might have been as brutal as everyone else.

And if you assume the world slave market has died out, you would be mistaken. It goes by the name 'human trafficking' nowadays, but it's still slavery. People of all faiths can be involved in it.

The only reason slavery can take place out in the open in some countries is because that's how the country is set up. It's illegal in Saudi Arabia, for instance, so you would see people buying slaves at the market.

The qur'an creates a second-class status for women. Today, millions of Muslim women live as second-class citizens, even in some places as chattel, suffering physical mutilation, child marriage, denial of basic human rights. These two facts are completely unrelated.

The Qur'an didn't create a second-class status for women; it already existed. It can be argued that Islam improved their status, but you could likewise argue that women are still second-class citizens — fair enough

To be honest, you make it sound like only Muslim women live as second-class citizens. I would say most of the women alive today live as second-class citizens, and it would be ludicrous if you attributed that to Islam.

The qur'an condemns Jews. Today Jew-hating is prevalent throughout the Muslim world. These two facts are completely unrelated.

People have mentioned that the condemnation of Jews is in relation to historical events. Also, historically, Jew-hating was not as prevalent, especially compared to Christian Europe. Has the Qur'an magically changed during that time?

I would say that, due to historical events blown out of proportion and the fact that scapegoating a people seems to always be in fashion, and especially due to the fact that prominent members of society espouse the view that, say, Jews in general are apes and pigs, the largely illiterate population would take them at their word.

In fact, there is no relationship between Islam and Muslims at all.

Now how did we get to that?

 

[croak]

Don't forget the hadiths and koran teach death to the infidels and hundreds of Jews, Christians and other faiths face death at the hands of Islam every year but this is completely unrelated.

I don't go around blaming the Bible for the Lord's Resistance Army. And if you argue that, no, they aren't Christians, or no, the Bible speaks of love... well, it would be kind of hypocritical, wouldn't it? According to your reasoning, the words of the Bible are the reason people die at the hands of the LRA.

Oh, and they have slaves as well. I thought only Muslims had slaves.

 

[TJ73]

I don't go around blaming the Bible for the Lord's Resistance Army. And if you argue that, no, they aren't Christians, or no, the Bible speaks of love... well, it would be kind of hypocritical, wouldn't it? According to your reasoning, the words of the Bible are the reason people die at the hands of the LRA.

Oh, and they have slaves as well. I thought only Muslims had slaves.

That's not fair. When other people do bad things there are ways around it. They are fringe groups. And the OT is just there for foreshadowing. There are only 2 kinds of people in this world good decent people and Muslims.

 

[astarath]

Quite to the contrary. The NT is the scripture on which Christianity is based. I am thrilled if you would show me the verses from the NT that condone the LRA.

The work of the LRA is explicitly condemned in Galatians 5. The central tenets of the Spirit are not there. The LRA is a perfect example of people citing OT text as Christian. However, OT is not Christian. It is where the basis of killing comes from for the nation of Israel as well to some degree the Ishmaelites.

I am happy to entertain a single quote from the NT you can provide that allows for the LRA. I am also happy to provide scripture from the Koran and Hadiths that condone the slaughter and killing of infidels.

 

[astarath]

That's not fair. When other people do bad things there are ways around it. They are fringe groups. And the OT is just there for foreshadowing. There are only 2 kinds of people in this world good decent people and Muslims.

Quite to the contrary. Muslims who don't practice the faith in its entirety are quite peaceful but in the top 50 nations for persecution 47 of them are Muslim predominant nations. The 3 that are not are North Korea, China and Cuba