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The Rapture
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
Firstborner
Active Member
Then how did the Comforter arrive?
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7
And why all the questions by his disciples concerning his return?
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo I am with you always even until the end of the world. Matt. 28: 20
He never left.
Firstborner
Active Member
You can stay with some one and not be in their physical reach. The disciples were asking about his physical return.
Jesus is now a spirit person.
When Jesus 'returns', so to speak, he comes with the armies of heaven [angels] according to Rev [19 vs11,14,15]. That is not a physical return, but notice the effect on earth. Jesus words are like a sharp executioner's sword.
-Isaiah 11v4; Jeremiah 25vs 31-33
Firstborner
Active Member
The scripture does not declare him to be a spirit person, but a physical being with a spiritual body. He is not returning only with angels, but also with ten thousands of the resurrected saints.
Agree besides the army of angels his holy ones or saints will also be involved.
Daniel 7 vs 13,14,18,21,22,27; Rev 14 vs3,4; 20v6
Before Jesus came to earth Jesus had a spirit body.
Only while on earth did Jesus have a physical body.
Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. -1st Cor 15v50.
God resurrected Jesus out of hell in a spirit body. -Acts 2v32.
After God resurrected Jesus, then Jesus used different materialized bodies before the resurrected spirit Jesus ascended up to heaven.
Firstborner
Active Member
I do not follow this train of reasoning.
Yes he was a Spirit, much like the angels, in the form of God, who also is a Spirit.
That is when he was granted his physical body, if your 'only' is tied to your 'granted' then I agree, if your 'only' is attached to 'on earth' then not.
That is a common used phrase, letting scripture compare to scripture we see that 'flesh and blood' is symbolic to the human endeavor in obtaining a resurrection, not at all about the form our body takes. He also stated "corruption can not inherit incorruption" in the same verse, then goes on to say in verse 53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption , and this mortal must put on immortality." Another comparable passage is John 1:12,13. Also note that Paul uses the same term in Galatians 1:16 and Ephesians 6:12 and to stay consistent with how he uses the phrase simply does not conclude he was speaking of literal flesh and literal blood not being what was resurrected.
Sorry, this verse says nothing about "in a spirit body", it only says God raised him up.
Where is this in any of the scriptures? It is highly interpretative at best, as there are no scriptures speaking of "materialized bodies". There are verses that are explicit that Christ was raised physically from the dead, with others, and that he remained physically upon the earth, and that even now in heaven he is referred to as a man, and that his future return will be a physical as well as a spiritual event.
Yes he was a Spirit, much like the angels, in the form of God, who also is a Spirit.
That is when he was granted his physical body, if your 'only' is tied to your 'granted' then I agree, if your 'only' is attached to 'on earth' then not.
That is a common used phrase, letting scripture compare to scripture we see that 'flesh and blood' is symbolic to the human endeavor in obtaining a resurrection, not at all about the form our body takes. He also stated "corruption can not inherit incorruption" in the same verse, then goes on to say in verse 53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption , and this mortal must put on immortality." Another comparable passage is John 1:12,13. Also note that Paul uses the same term in Galatians 1:16 and Ephesians 6:12 and to stay consistent with how he uses the phrase simply does not conclude he was speaking of literal flesh and literal blood not being what was resurrected.
Sorry, this verse says nothing about "in a spirit body", it only says God raised him up.
Where is this in any of the scriptures? It is highly interpretative at best, as there are no scriptures speaking of "materialized bodies". There are verses that are explicit that Christ was raised physically from the dead, with others, and that he remained physically upon the earth, and that even now in heaven he is referred to as a man, and that his future return will be a physical as well as a spiritual event.
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Firstborner-
If you read the resurrection accounts please notice Mary Magdalene remains behind wondering where is Jesus. She sees the caretaker who asks who is she looking for.
Imagining the person was the actual caretaker of the garden she starts talking with him.
It is not until the caretaker says her name that Mary recognizes it is Jesus.
If Jesus was not in a materialized body Mary would have immediately recognized him.
-Matthew 28vs3-15; Mark 16vs5-8; Luke 24vs4-12; John 20vs2-18.
Further along disciples leave Jerusalem for Emmaus [7 mile walk] and enroute a stranger joins them. When they reach Emmaus they realize the stranger is Jesus in materialized human body.
Others relate how Jesus appeared to them.
So four times during the day Jesus appears to different ones of his disciples.
The fifth appearance is through locked doors.
-Luke 24vs11,13-48; John 20vs19-29
After the apostles return to Galilee the disciples go fishing.
Jesus is on the beach but they do not recognize Jesus.
Not until they draw in all the fish they recognize it was Jesus.
-John 21vs1-25; Matthew 26v32; 28vs7,10
So the resurrected Jesus shows himself alive by materializing in different human bodies to his disciples for 40 days following his resurrection.
To 'put on' means leaving behind the material/physical body and 'put on' a spirit body.
1st Cor 15v40.
Paul uses the illustration of a plant in verse 41-44, 38
We know a plant must give up the 'seed' in order to turn into a plant. [verse 36]
So those that go to heaven leave flesh and blood [physical] behind.
Those that are resurrected on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth are resurrected in a healthy physical body as Daniel looked forward. [12vs2,13]
If you read the resurrection accounts please notice Mary Magdalene remains behind wondering where is Jesus. She sees the caretaker who asks who is she looking for.
Imagining the person was the actual caretaker of the garden she starts talking with him.
It is not until the caretaker says her name that Mary recognizes it is Jesus.
If Jesus was not in a materialized body Mary would have immediately recognized him.
-Matthew 28vs3-15; Mark 16vs5-8; Luke 24vs4-12; John 20vs2-18.
Further along disciples leave Jerusalem for Emmaus [7 mile walk] and enroute a stranger joins them. When they reach Emmaus they realize the stranger is Jesus in materialized human body.
Others relate how Jesus appeared to them.
So four times during the day Jesus appears to different ones of his disciples.
The fifth appearance is through locked doors.
-Luke 24vs11,13-48; John 20vs19-29
After the apostles return to Galilee the disciples go fishing.
Jesus is on the beach but they do not recognize Jesus.
Not until they draw in all the fish they recognize it was Jesus.
-John 21vs1-25; Matthew 26v32; 28vs7,10
So the resurrected Jesus shows himself alive by materializing in different human bodies to his disciples for 40 days following his resurrection.
To 'put on' means leaving behind the material/physical body and 'put on' a spirit body.
1st Cor 15v40.
Paul uses the illustration of a plant in verse 41-44, 38
We know a plant must give up the 'seed' in order to turn into a plant. [verse 36]
So those that go to heaven leave flesh and blood [physical] behind.
Those that are resurrected on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth are resurrected in a healthy physical body as Daniel looked forward. [12vs2,13]
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
It's remarkable how disinterested Christians are in any relationship with orthodoxy.
I don't think that one has to follow the teachings of the Church, but to show utter contempt for it is a little odd.
I don't think that one has to follow the teachings of the Church, but to show utter contempt for it is a little odd.
Jesus followed the teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures and taught how they applied to him. Whereas, the teachings of the church [Pharisees] Jesus showed his feelings by pronouncing many 'woes' along with his reasons why for each 'woe' at Matthew chapter 23 against them.
They were following oral tradition or customs instead of Scripture.
-Mark 7v7,13; Matt 15v9
The religious leaders often act as if they are some sort of holy ventriloquist because they 'put' words in Jesus mouth, so to speak, words that were never in his mouth.
Like the Pharisees they often follow their own agenda not Christ's agenda.
Luke wrote that false wolf-like clergy dressed in sheep's clothing would fleece the flock of God. -Acts 20vs29,30
The clergy sit in the temple [houses of worship] as if he is God.
When in reality he is anti-God. -2nd Thess 2vs2-8
They often teach people that God burns people in endless flames.
When it is so easy to see the word translated in English as hellfire really is from the word 'Gehenna' which was a garbage pit where things were destroyed not kept burning forever.
Hell [sheol] is simply the common grave of mankind where the dead sleep.
-Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 136v4; Ecclesiastes 9v5; John 11vs11-14.
Jesus did not put down the religious leaders for doing good deeds.
Anyone can be a neighborly good Samaritan and widen out in doing food for others, but putting first the material/physical patching up of this bad system under Satan, who is the god of this world of badness, is actually giving Satan a helping hand to perpetuate the last days of this old system of things.
-2nd Tim 3vs1-5,13; 2nd Cor 4v4; 1st John 5v19; Rev. 12vs9,12
Jesus main theme was to proclaim the good news of God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus as to what is the solution to mankind's problems.
Luke 4v43; Matthew 24v14; Daniel 7vs13,14; 2v44
Only Jesus, as prince of peace, can and will usher in global peace on earth toward men of goodwill. Whereas the clergy mainly focus only on a heavenly reward or a torture in eternal flames instead of teaching the hope that God's kingdom is the government in the hands of Christ Jesus who will soon separate peoples, and those on his right hand of favor, so to speak, can continue to live on earth right into the start of Jesus millennial reign over earth.
Matthew 25vs31,32
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Firstborner
Active Member
I really think you are reading way too much into these accounts, you are simply giving an interpretation to the events that is not supportable in the passages. There is not one scripture which says anything at all about a "materialized body". That is simply a construct used to glue scriptures together to form an idea that is contrary to others.
For example:
First of all there is no indication of a "materialized body" in these passages, in fact there are several reasons given within these passages that offer a more satisfactory reason as to why she did not recognize Jesus, for example, she was weeping, it was early morning hours and not in the full light of day, she had her back to him, and just as importantly she was caught off guard psychologically as she was distressed about Jesus' missing body.
How many times in our lives have we been distracted enough not to recognize something or someone in front of our own eyes?
Now according to John 20:14 the onus of not recognizing him was on herself, when it said, "she turned herself back...and knew not that it was Jesus." If the scripture places the burden square on her shoulders, we should not invent "materialized" bodies that happened in her presence, but she didn't notice until spoken to...I don't know about you but I think I would recognize someone shape shifting in front of me.
Once more there is a key sentence to that passage, it says, "but their eyes were held that they should not know him." They did not recognize him because Jesus did not want it so, I am sure so his walk with them was more fruitful. It says he held their eyes and nothing about changing his own form. Later the passage even says, "And their eyes were opened, and they knew him." Once again, no "materialized body".
And where are is the evidence of a "materialized body" in those events?
No doubt a miracle, should we marvel that the Christ who fed thousands miraculously and healed diseases before his resurrection could still produce miracles afterwards? Still no evidence of a "materialized body".
I wonder if 300 feet off shore in the early morning hours had anything whatsoever to do with not recognizing him?
In different human bodies? Where is your Scriptural proof? There is not one explicit example or scriptural assertion that he had a stockpile of random bodies he was meeting the disciples in. How would it even be possible for persons to be witnesses of his resurrection, unless they knew him both before and after and he was recognized by them? Jesus declared clearly that he was raised to life in the same body he had previously, and that he was NOT a spirit. Luke 24:39.
Since when does putting on a shirt mean your upper torso gets left behind?
So let me ask you, is Paul being resurrected into the earthly realm or heavenly?
Are those resurrected left on earth still part of the Kingdom of god?
Was Daniel looking forward to the Kingdom of God?
Explain John 2:19-22.
For example:
First of all there is no indication of a "materialized body" in these passages, in fact there are several reasons given within these passages that offer a more satisfactory reason as to why she did not recognize Jesus, for example, she was weeping, it was early morning hours and not in the full light of day, she had her back to him, and just as importantly she was caught off guard psychologically as she was distressed about Jesus' missing body.
How many times in our lives have we been distracted enough not to recognize something or someone in front of our own eyes?
Now according to John 20:14 the onus of not recognizing him was on herself, when it said, "she turned herself back...and knew not that it was Jesus." If the scripture places the burden square on her shoulders, we should not invent "materialized" bodies that happened in her presence, but she didn't notice until spoken to...I don't know about you but I think I would recognize someone shape shifting in front of me.
Once more there is a key sentence to that passage, it says, "but their eyes were held that they should not know him." They did not recognize him because Jesus did not want it so, I am sure so his walk with them was more fruitful. It says he held their eyes and nothing about changing his own form. Later the passage even says, "And their eyes were opened, and they knew him." Once again, no "materialized body".
And where are is the evidence of a "materialized body" in those events?
No doubt a miracle, should we marvel that the Christ who fed thousands miraculously and healed diseases before his resurrection could still produce miracles afterwards? Still no evidence of a "materialized body".
I wonder if 300 feet off shore in the early morning hours had anything whatsoever to do with not recognizing him?
In different human bodies? Where is your Scriptural proof? There is not one explicit example or scriptural assertion that he had a stockpile of random bodies he was meeting the disciples in. How would it even be possible for persons to be witnesses of his resurrection, unless they knew him both before and after and he was recognized by them? Jesus declared clearly that he was raised to life in the same body he had previously, and that he was NOT a spirit. Luke 24:39.
Since when does putting on a shirt mean your upper torso gets left behind?
So let me ask you, is Paul being resurrected into the earthly realm or heavenly?
Are those resurrected left on earth still part of the Kingdom of god?
Was Daniel looking forward to the Kingdom of God?
Explain John 2:19-22.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Muffled
Jesus in me
The point is that the wicked are not gathered to the air. There is no burning in the air only on earth. If Christians were not raptured before the burning it would not be a rapture of people "alive" as Paul puts it because they would be all burned up. I don't go by Rapture theories. I go by what the Bible and Jesus say.
Heaven is not mentioned in the Corinthian passage and it is not mentioned in the Rapture passage. The verse mentions the "last trumpet". The Rapture passage also mentions resurrection and a trumpet.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Your answer to this question is incorrect. Jesus is pictured in Heaven but that doesn't mean that he is physically present there. There aren't any physical places for people in Heaven so Jesus is preparing a physical place to which the rapture occurs. After all, what sense does it make to Rapture people off the earth only to have them die because they can't breathe. I believe the Rapture and the prepared place is the New Jerusalem, a physical city with totally surrounding walls that will descend to earth after the earth has recovered from its conflagration and there Jesus will rule the earth with Christians as his subjects.
What are you talking about putting on a shirt means your torso gets left behind?
Paul is part of the 'little flock' [smaller group] of Luke [12v32] who are part of the first or earlier resurrection of Rev [20v6] who will reign in heaven with Jesus.
'Thy kingdom come' and 'God's will be done' where ? on earth as heaven.
There is no war, crime, violence, pollution, sickness or death in heaven.
No body goes to heaven to dies in heaven.
So, 'God's will being done on earth' as it is in heaven would mean global Peace on Earth when Jesus, as king of God's kingdom, ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of good will such as the living humble sheep-like ones of Matt 25v32; John 10v16 [larger group]
Absolutely Daniel was looking forward to the kingdom of God as he recorded at: Daniel 7 vs13,14; 2v44.
All that died before Jesus died did Not ascend to heaven.- John 3v13
John 2vs19-22
Verse 21 explains Jesus was talking about the temple of his body.
It says: 'of his' body Not his body.
The Jews thought Jesus was talking about the temple building itself.
When Jesus was resurrected by God the disciples understood that Jesus was Not resurrected in a fleshly body. Jesus gave his body as a ransom sacrifice [Matt 20v28] . Like Moses body, God disposed of Jesus fleshly body.
The disciples [John 21v12] none of the disciples had the courage to ask Jesus " Who are you?" If they had recognized Jesus in his own fleshy body there would have been no reason for the question: Who are you.
Doesn't a stranger join the disciples on the road from Emmaus to Jerusalem
[7 mile walk] ? Luke 24v11 Peter only finds bandages, No body.
Verse 16 the reason their eyes were kept from recognizing Jesus is because Jesus was in a materialized body. Jesus was resurrected in the spirit so in order for humans to see the resurrected Jesus he put on a different fleshy or materialized body for them to see and talk with.
John [20v14] ...'saw' Jesus standing, and knew Not that it was Jesus.
John [21vs4,5] Jesus stood on the shore but the disciples knew Not that it was Jesus, then Jesus said to them.......they answered him, "No'.
They were in close proximity at that point.
Matthew [12v6] says:... That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Matthew [27v40] says: Thou that destroys [throws down] the temple, and builds it up in three days.
Mark [14v58] We heard him say, I will destroy [throw down] this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
'Made without hands' or without physical. So a materialized body would be needed because the 'made without hands' spirit body would not be visible to humans.
Peter believed [1st Pt 3v18] Jesus was put to death in the flesh but make alive in the spirit.
javajo
Well-Known Member
Well, I believe Jesus is in Heaven.
javajo-
Yes, Jesus is in heaven because as Hebrews [9vs24-28] mentions:
Jesus appears before the presence or person of God in heaven itself.
[A heavenly realm independent of the material universe.]
Flesh and blood [physical] can not inherit the heavenly realm [1st Cor 15v50]
So, Jesus is back in heaven in his original spirit body that Jesus had before being sent to earth.
Yes, heaven is God home.
-1st Kings 8 vs23,30,34,36,39,42,49; Deut 26v15
Yes, Jesus is in heaven because as Hebrews [9vs24-28] mentions:
Jesus appears before the presence or person of God in heaven itself.
[A heavenly realm independent of the material universe.]
Flesh and blood [physical] can not inherit the heavenly realm [1st Cor 15v50]
So, Jesus is back in heaven in his original spirit body that Jesus had before being sent to earth.
Yes, heaven is God home.
-1st Kings 8 vs23,30,34,36,39,42,49; Deut 26v15
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The New Jerusalem is indeed a splendid city.
The dimensions of New Jerusalem with its foursquare base is: 345 miles.
Each side being 1,379 miles completely around [12,000 furlongs]
New Jerusalem being a cube or meaning high as it is wide,
means no earthly city could reach that far into outer space.
One wall being 210 feet high.
On the foundation stones were engraved the names of the 12 apostles.
-Rev 21vs12-21.
The expression New Jerusalem appears twice [Rev 3v12; 21v2]
City prepared as a bride.
So the ID of New Jerusalem is that 'she' is a bride.
-Rev 21vs9-11
New Jerusalem is the bride of whom?
[John 1v29; Rev 5v6,12; 7v14; 12v11; 21v14]
On earth the Christian congregation was likened to a chaste virgin and a wife.
[2nd Cor 11v2; Eph 5 vs23-25,32]
Jesus addresses the congregation at Rev 3v12.
As a bride or wife takes the husband's name, the Lamb's name is theirs.
-Rev 14v1
As back in Zerubbabel's day there was a new heavens and a new earth
[Isaiah 65v17; Haggai 1v1,14]
New Jerusalem [bride or wife] together with Lamb Christ [husband] on his heavenly throne, of this symbolic city, will make up the future new heavens and new earth of 2nd Peter 3v13.
A new 'heavenly rulership' comes down over earth,
and over a new earth-wide righteous society.
Heavenly Jesus, as king of God's kingdom,
will have earthly subjects from one end of earth to the other end.
-Psalm 72v8