The Rapture

[Muffled]

The rapture does not have biblical roots.The scriptures that people use to try and show that it's biblical take those scriptures out of context

You can't prove the null hypothesis. You can attempt to show how scripture is taken out of context but I doubt you will be successful.

 

[Muffled]

1. If I understand the statement correctly, are you saying God is merely giving off the impression he is not attempting to save everyone??



2. Never said or implied God controlled Job's thinking: Here it is again:

"The book of Job and other verses plainly refute this premise. God is in complete control of and not in a battle with satan and his demons (Job 1:12; 2:6;1Ki 22:20-22)."
​

The statement clearly implies God is in control of satan and his demons--- not Job's thoughts. I'm sure the misunderstanding was inadvertent. You do not strike me as the type to twist statements to justify yourself.

3. I just proved to you from the scriptures in point #2 there is no contest. In the book of Job, God gave satan restrictions and he obeyed. How can you compete with someone who dictates what you can or cannot do? It's like saying my supervisor and I are competing for customers in the same territory but I cannot acquire one unless he authorizes it. Grossly illogical, wouldn't you agree?

4. Not so sure about that Muffled. Let's take another look: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." According to the original Greek, the phrase "will or shall be saved" is used as a verb in the future passive indicative tense indicating a future condition--not past or present! The same Greek word is used in Mat 10:22.. In addition, "saved" is used as a verb in both verses. Yet you twist the phrase to imply the word "saved" as being the subject. I take back the last sentence in reply #2.

5. Evidence? I've given you verses, analogies, and tense interpretation. The only thing left to do is to put aside pride and everything you've learned about salvation and pray for understanding.

No. God does not give the impression that He isn't trying. He simply says that laying down His life is the ultimate attempt that He can make.

3. The limitations do not eliminate the contest. For instance if there is a joust and the king says your shield can only be three feet high both contestants would have to adhere to that arestriction but that would not keep it from being a contest. Satan has more power than Job over material posessions. The contest is to see whether Job can suffer the loss of posessions and still keep his faith in God. Satan claims that Job will discard his faith.

4. Lol. I can see where you might view it that way if all you werre looking at is this one scripture. However IMHO the enduring is not done by an unsaved person who would be incapable. The concept of endurance is to hold on to what you have. If you don't lose your salvation you will still have it at the end.

 

[james2ko]

No. God does not give the impression that He isn't trying. He simply says that laying down His life is the ultimate attempt that He can make.

1. But how does Christ laying down His life save those who never even got an opportunity to know the only name under heaven by which men can be saved? (Acts 4:12)

The limitations do not eliminate the contest.

2. There is no contest. A contest is a competition between contestants who have knowledge of the rules, which apply equally to each contestant, along with a referee or judge to ensure they are followed. This is hardly the relationship between God and satan.

For instance if there is a joust and the king says your shield can only be three feet high both contestants would have to adhere to that arestriction but that would not keep it from being a contest. Satan has more power than Job over material posessions.

3. A false analogy. You are attempting to create an analogous relationship between two non-competing beings (satan and God) with three beings (two jousters competing against each other and a judge--the king). Not going to work.

However IMHO the enduring is not done by an unsaved person who would be incapable. The concept of endurance is to hold on to what you have. If you don't lose your salvation you will still have it at the end

4. Ok so you do believe we can lose our salvation before Christ returns and if we do, we will not be saved (inherit eternal life).

4. Lol. I can see where you might view it that way if all you werre looking at is this one scripture.

5. let's talk about the rest of them.

 

[Muffled]

1. But how does Christ laying down His life save those who never even got an opportunity to know the only name under heaven by which men can be saved? (Acts 4:12)

He can't save people by this act. All He can do is try to save people by this act.
Everyone will have the opportunity to hear the Gospel before the Rapture.

2. There is no contest. A contest is a competition between contestants who have knowledge of the rules, which apply equally to each contestant, along with a referee or judge to ensure they are followed. This is hardly the relationship between God and satan.

Satan knows the rules. God makes the rules. Not all contests are fair contests. Sometimes a big bruiser takes on a wimp. Not all contests have referees. However even if Satan were removed, there is no guarantee tha God would win a person's soul since Satan has already damaged the souls of so many.


3. A false analogy. You are attempting to create an analogous relationship between two non-competing beings (satan and God) with three beings (two jousters competing against each other and a judge--the king). Not going to work.

You can't prove your argument by stating a conclusion without proof.
Granted there are only two beings. God is jouster and king.

4. Ok so you do believe we can lose our salvation before Christ returns and if we do, we will not be saved (inherit eternal life).

People have free will and can change their minds. Otherwise there would be no hope of saving those who are not saved.

5. let's talk about the rest of them.

Mt 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.

Where is the endurance here? The unsaved person has decided that salvation is foolisness. Enduring in that state only guarantees an encounter with Hell.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Mt 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.
Where is the endurance here? The unsaved person has decided that salvation is foolisness. Enduring in that state only guarantees an encounter with Hell.

There is a difference between the Bible hell [sheol/hades] and the pagan hell.

'All' in the 'Bible hell' are 'delivered up' [resurrected]. -Rev 20vs13,14

'Gehenna' is a different word from sheol or hades.
Gehenna has been translated as hell fire.
Gehenna was actually a garbage dump where things were destroyed not kept burning forever.

The danger was Gehenna meaning the punishment of everlasting destruction.
-2nd Thess 1v9; Psalm 92v7; Proverbs 2vs21,22; 10v30; 21v18

The Bible definition of the lake of fire is : second death.
'Fire' being the symbol of everlasting destruction in second death meaning
no further existence anywhere in heaven or on earth.

The 'Bible hell' [gravedom] gets cast into second death only after all in the 'Bible hell' are resurrected, then emptied-out, vacant hell dies that symbolic second death out of existence.

Except for those of Matthew 12v32 and Hebrews 6vs4-6, all the rest of mankind will be resurrected to either reign in heaven with Christ [Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10], or will be resurrected back to life right here on a paradisaic earth during Jesus thousand-year reign over earth. -Daniel 12 vs2,13

 

[james2ko]

He can't save people by this act. All He can do is try to save people by this act.

1. You didn't answer the question: What does the bible say will happen to the millions, perhaps billions, who never even got an opportunity to hear the only name which could save them? Are they condemned to hell? After all, according to your theology, at death, one is either saved or not, right?

Everyone will have the opportunity to hear the Gospel before the Rapture.

2. Everyone? Including those who lived and died before Christ was born?

Not all contests are fair contests. Sometimes a big bruiser takes on a wimp.

3. A weak and cowardly person (wimp) would never even dream of getting into a contest with a big bruiser. Since satan is neither weak nor cowardly and neither is God a big bruiser, this is simply just another invalid analogy.

Not all contests have referees.

4. Then it's not a contest. Show me a contest or competition without someone or entity to ensure the rules are followed and a winner determined.

Satan knows the rules. God makes the rules.

6. Satan also knows who is in charge and can only do what God allows. This classifies satan as an unwitting servant--not God's competitor.

You can't prove your argument by stating a conclusion without proof. Granted there are only two beings. God is jouster and king.

7. The conclusion was that your analogy is invalid based on the proof which was inherent in the analogy itself. Now it seems you are making illogical statements [God is jouster and king] to make the analogy work.

Mt 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.

Where is the endurance here? The unsaved person has decided that salvation is foolisness. Enduring in that state only guarantees an encounter with Hell.

8. Although there were many folks there, the context seems to indicate this was being directly addressed to His disciples (vs 13). Christ was expounding on the sixth commandment to include extreme anger. If a Christian has an anger problem, it would be equal to them breaking the command. They must overcome it or be in "danger" of losing their salvation. Other passages indicate God will send tests, trials, tribulations, and hardships along the way, which Christians will have to endure, to prove their obedience to God:

Act_14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

1Th 2:4 But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.

Heb 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?​

And if we endure these trials, tests, hardships, chastening and tribulations until death or Christ's return, which ever comes first, we shall be saved:

Mat 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mat_24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

2Ti_2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny
​

 

[Muffled]

There is a difference between the Bible hell [sheol/hades] and the pagan hell.

'All' in the 'Bible hell' are 'delivered up' [resurrected]. -Rev 20vs13,14

'Gehenna' is a different word from sheol or hades.
Gehenna has been translated as hell fire.
Gehenna was actually a garbage dump where things were destroyed not kept burning forever.

The danger was Gehenna meaning the punishment of everlasting destruction.
-2nd Thess 1v9; Psalm 92v7; Proverbs 2vs21,22; 10v30; 21v18

The Bible definition of the lake of fire is : second death.
'Fire' being the symbol of everlasting destruction in second death meaning
no further existence anywhere in heaven or on earth.

The 'Bible hell' [gravedom] gets cast into second death only after all in the 'Bible hell' are resurrected, then emptied-out, vacant hell dies that symbolic second death out of existence.

Except for those of Matthew 12v32 and Hebrews 6vs4-6, all the rest of mankind will be resurrected to either reign in heaven with Christ [Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10], or will be resurrected back to life right here on a paradisaic earth during Jesus thousand-year reign over earth. -Daniel 12 vs2,13

The context quite clearly refers to earth: Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The context here is also earth: Rev 5:10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.

This is not the best source for this subject but there is no doubt that the text does not refer to a place where people are resurrected.

Do you have any evidence to support that?

This is incorrect. Hades refers to the grave. The lake of fire is the reference to biblical Hell.

Death quite obviously is a temporary state as resurrection attests. Therfore a second death is not an extinction but a temporary state aslo.

There is no doubt that the grave goes into Hell. That does not mean that it goes in wholesale. Any survivors of the Holocaust would go into a grave when they die.

 

[Muffled]

1. You didn't answer the question: What does the bible say will happen to the millions, perhaps billions, who never even got an opportunity to hear the only name which could save them? Are they condemned to hell? After all, according to your theology, at death, one is either saved or not, right?

2. Everyone? Including those who lived and died before Christ was born?

Everyone.

You should do your own post on this because it is off topic.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The context quite clearly refers to earth: Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
The context here is also earth: Rev 5:10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth.
This is not the best source for this subject but there is no doubt that the text does not refer to a place where people are resurrected.
Do you have any evidence to support that?
This is incorrect. Hades refers to the grave. The lake of fire is the reference to biblical Hell.
Death quite obviously is a temporary state as resurrection attests. Therfore a second death is not an extinction but a temporary state aslo.
There is no doubt that the grave goes into Hell. That does not mean that it goes in wholesale. Any survivors of the Holocaust would go into a grave when they die.

Yes, hades and sheol are hell the common grave of mankind.

Lake of fire is Not hell, Gehenna [hellfire] is: second death.

'Inherited death' is the death we inherit from father Adam.
'Second death' is for those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6; 10vs26,27

'All' in the Bible hell are resurrected 'delivered up' from the biblical hell according to Rev 20vs13,14. Emptied-out, vacant hell [gravedom] is cast into: second death. -Jeremiah 51vs39,57

Isn't Satan destroyed according to Hebrews 2v14 B?
Satan is destroyed in second death. Rev 21v8.
Those of Psalm 92v7 are annihilated or destroyed forever.
-2nd Thess 1v9.
Those that are executed [Rev 19v15; Isaiah 11v4] by Christ at Armageddon will not have a resurrection anywhere to heaven or on earth.

Please notice the nations are cured or healed according to Rev 22v2.
Isn't that in fulfillment to the promise to Abraham that all families of the 'earth' will be blessed, and all nations of the 'earth' will be blessed? Gen 22vs17,18
Didn't Isaiah write about the time when No one would say, "I am sick"?
No one is sick in heaven, and no one goes to heaven to die in heaven.
The no sickness and no death [Rev 21vs4,5] is to be on earth.
Who makes wars to stop on earth according to Psalm 46v9 ?
Where are Jesus subjects according to Psalm 72v8; Zech 9v10 B ?

Those of Rev [5vs9,10] are also those of Rev [20v6] that reign with Christ in the heavens for one-thousand years. Reign over earthly subjects of God's kingdom. Soon the kingdom 'stone' of Daniel [2vs 34,35,45] will strike down present-day rulers [kings] according to verse 44 that are enemies of God's kingdom rule. We are at the time of the statue's toes [verse 42], or should I say time of the toe nails when Jesus will soon act as Daniel [7vs13,14,18,27] says. Jesus as crowned king of God's kingdom will provide mankind's greatest needs which includes good government free from affliction. -Micah 4vs3,4.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1. You didn't answer the question: What does the bible say will happen to the millions, perhaps billions, who never even got an opportunity to hear the only name which could save them? Are they condemned to hell? After all, according to your theology, at death, one is either saved or not, right?
2. Everyone? Including those who lived and died before Christ was born?

No one is condemned to the biblical hell because the Bible hell is the common grave of mankind where Jesus slept in death until God resurrected Jesus.
[Ecc. 9v5; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; John 11vs11-14; Acts 2vs27,31,32]

The Bible hell ends according to Rev 20 vs13,14.
Emptied-out hell [gravedom] is cast into: second death.

Jesus ransom according to Matthew [20v28] covers: 'Many".[not all]
Those that are Not covered commit the unforgivable sin such as the wicked religious leaders of Jesus day.- Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6; 10vs26,27

The majority [back to Abel] of those that lived and died before Jesus died will have an earthly resurrection such as John the Baptist, King David and Daniel.
Matt 11v11 and Acts 2v34 and Daniel 12vs2,13

Jesus death and resurrection opened up the way for those of Rev [5vs9,10; 20v6; 1st Cor 15v50; Matt 25v40] to be resurrected to heaven.

The rest of mankind will be resurrected from 'inherited death' [Rom 6vs23,7] 'inherited from Adam' during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.

 

[Firstborner]

I also include the harvest of wheat (Righteous people) in the Rapture coming before the harvest of tares (un-righteous people) that comes with fire:

As to your first post, all the verses you had shown fit in with a resurrection at Christ's return, which is also the last day.

The parable of the wheat and tares actually speaks against all the rapture theories.

Matthew 13

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

A few verses later Jesus interprets the parable for his disciples and us.

36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice that this harvest is the end of the world, the last day, and that the gathering of both the wicked and righteous occur on the same day. If any thing the harvest of the tares is before that of the wheat!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

As to your first post, all the verses you had shown fit in with a resurrection at Christ's return, which is also the last day.

Yes, resurrection. A first or earlier resurrection to heaven.
The last day or meaning Jesus 'millennial-long day' of reigning over earth.
Those of Rev [20v6;5vs9,10] reign with Christ for that 'thousand-year day'.
Reign over earthly subjects of Psalm [72v8].
Starting at the harvest time or time of separation of Matthew 25 vs31,32.

 

[Firstborner]

Yes, resurrection. A first or earlier resurrection to heaven.
The last day or meaning Jesus 'millennial-long day' of reigning over earth.
Those of Rev [20v6;5vs9,10] reign with Christ for that 'thousand-year day'.
Reign over earthly subjects of Psalm [72v8].
Starting at the harvest time or time of separation of Matthew 25 vs31,32.

Not following you. The parable of the Wheat and tares leaves it that the tares are gathered FIRST. I believe on the same day, but either way first. Job says the same thing in Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

The gathering of the wheat could be interpreted as happening simultaneously, but not 1000 years BEFORE the tares, that would be a contradictory interpretation.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Only the 'sheep' of Matthew [25v32] will be part of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.

The weed/tares, and goats of Matthew [25v32], are destroyed 'before' Jesus ushers in global peace on earth toward men of goodwill.

 

[WALL]

Are there any scriptures that actually say when 1Cor.15 takes place we go off to heaven?

 

[james2ko]

No one is condemned to the biblical hell because the Bible hell is the common grave of mankind where Jesus slept in death until God resurrected Jesus.
[Ecc. 9v5; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; John 11vs11-14; Acts 2vs27,31,32]

The Bible hell ends according to Rev 20 vs13,14.
Emptied-out hell [gravedom] is cast into: second death.

Jesus ransom according to Matthew [20v28] covers: 'Many".[not all]
Those that are Not covered commit the unforgivable sin such as the wicked religious leaders of Jesus day.- Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6; 10vs26,27

The majority [back to Abel] of those that lived and died before Jesus died will have an earthly resurrection such as John the Baptist, King David and Daniel.
Matt 11v11 and Acts 2v34 and Daniel 12vs2,13

Jesus death and resurrection opened up the way for those of Rev [5vs9,10; 20v6; 1st Cor 15v50; Matt 25v40] to be resurrected to heaven.

The rest of mankind will be resurrected from 'inherited death' [Rom 6vs23,7] 'inherited from Adam' during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.

I was hoping to get Muffled's response. You and I have already discussed this in another thread here. A few of the points are biblical but there are others which are not. Especially your interpretation of Rom 6 which I'm afraid has absolutely nothing to do with a physical resurrection as explained in point 4 here

 

[Firstborner]

Only the 'sheep' of Matthew [25v32] will be part of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.

The weed/tares, and goats of Matthew [25v32], are destroyed 'before' Jesus ushers in global peace on earth toward men of goodwill.

The problem with that interpretation is when you compare all the scriptures together where Jesus speaks on the subject, he gives no hint of a separate time framed resurrection, always speaking of the resurrection of both the good and bad as occurring on the "last day". Your interpretation requires him to have 2 second comings.

Are there any scriptures that actually say when 1Cor.15 takes place we go off to heaven?

Not really. It is concerning the resurrection, but does not indicate anything about where we spend it.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

I am Dispensational Prewrathist. Simply put, I believe that Israel and the Church are two separate entities, that Jesus will Rapture His Church at the Second coming after the wrath of Satan is cut short and before the wrath of God begins, and that the destination of the Raptured elect is in heaven.

 

[Awoon]

I am Dispensational Prewrathist. Simply put, I believe that Israel and the Church are two separate entities, that Jesus will Rapture His Church at the Second coming after the wrath of Satan is cut short and before the wrath of God begins, and that the destination of the Raptured elect is in heaven.

"the wrath of God"

God is Love. What "wrath" can Love possibly have?

 

[Falcon]

No Rapture as some believe since the 1850s because of the wild imagination of an itinerant Scottish preacher by the name of John Darby.
Catholics believe the Bible as found in 1 Thess. 4: 16-17 - "The dead in Christ will rise first; then we whoare alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord . '
It is true that the word " rapiemur " does appear in Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians ,but it in no ways means as Darby promoted, but it caught like wildfire amongst the Evangelical/ Fundamentalists . It does mean 'caught up " or 'rasied up ' but nothing like the invention of John Darby.