The Rapture

[Muffled]

FYI, more REAL truth that exposes the rapture theory

There are so many Scriptures like this that contradict the rapture theory. Look at this one,

"The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s; but the EARTH hath He given to the children of men" (Psalm 115:6). One more, "... for we are your glorying (even as you also are ours) in THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS" (II Cor. 1:14).

Not in the "rapture," but in "the day of our Lord."

I don't believe your conclusion is well reasoned. The Rapture is not a theory it is a Biblical fact. There could be many theories about the Rapture but they don't alter the facts.

I don't see any tie in to the Rapture in these verses. If you are going to claim these verses are relevant then you will have to prove it.

 

[Ben Masada]

This doctrinal concept is probably misconstrued as the Doctrine of the Trinity. However there is scripture to support this where there isn't any for the DOTT.

This is the main supporting scripture: I Thes. 4:13 ¶ But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 6 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I also include:
Mat 22:1 ¶ And Jesus answered and spake again in parables unto them, saying,
2 The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son,
3 and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the marriage feast: and they would not come.
4 Again he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them that are bidden, Behold, I have made ready my dinner; my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come to the marriage feast.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise;
6 and the rest laid hold on his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them.
7 But the king was wroth; and he sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore unto the partings of the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage feast.
10 And those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was filled with guests.
11 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding–garment:
12 and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding–garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

I also include the harvest of wheat (Righteous people) in the Rapture coming before the harvest of tares (un-righteous people) that comes with fire:

Rev 14:15 And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 Another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.

This is all Pauline rhetoric with the purpose to keep his followers in the church. He was building a church and needed a kind of Theological Christology to make it spectacular.
Ben

 

[Muffled]

This is all Pauline rhetoric with the purpose to keep his followers in the church. He was building a church and needed a kind of Theological Christology to make it spectacular.
Ben

Anyone can badmouth a persons spirituality. I could say that Moses never heard from God but just used the concept so he could control people. Of course in the cases of Moses and Paul, the scripture says that they were following God.

It has always been Jesus building His church. Paul is simply a good servant for forming a systematic theology according to God's will. Paul already has the spectacular in Jesus. Jesus has His own agenda and Paul gets to write it.

 

[AK4]

I don't believe your conclusion is well reasoned. The Rapture is not a theory it is a Biblical fact. There could be many theories about the Rapture but they don't alter the facts.

And if there were to be a rapture, as i pointed out before, it would be a rapture of the wicked. Who inherits the earth? The righteous. Who is eradicated from the earth? The wicked. What did Jesus say it would be like when the "coming of the Son of Man" returns? Like the days of Noah. Who was taken from the earth? The wicked. Who was "saved"? Noah and his family. Yet in christianity they teach the righteous are taken away and the wicked inherit the earth. Which do you believe... the Word or christian theology?

I don't see any tie in to the Rapture in these verses. If you are going to claim these verses are relevant then you will have to prove it.

Wow you dont see it? Was it not proven earlier? What else do you need?

 

[Muffled]

And if there were to be a rapture, as i pointed out before, it would be a rapture of the wicked. Who inherits the earth? The righteous. Who is eradicated from the earth? The wicked. What did Jesus say it would be like when the "coming of the Son of Man" returns? Like the days of Noah. Who was taken from the earth? The wicked. Who was "saved"? Noah and his family. Yet in christianity they teach the righteous are taken away and the wicked inherit the earth. Which do you believe... the Word or christian theology?


Wow you dont see it? Was it not proven earlier? What else do you need?

in logic this is called jumping to a conclusion because no proof is given.

premise 1. There is a rapture
premise 2. The righteous inherit the earth
(no proof)
Conclusion. The righteous are not raptured

This is how it should look.

premise 1. There is a rapture of people who are alive
Premise 2. The author states that the people being raptured include us
premise 3. We are righteous
Proof: We can now reason that at least some of the righteous are raptured
Conclusion. The righteous are raptured

Premise 1. The righteous inherit the earth
Premise 2. Inheritors are living people
premise 3. People caught on earth when it is on fire die
Proof: The raptured are the living righteous people and the people on earth are the wicked dead people
Conclusion. The righteous raptured people will inherit the earth from the dead when it becomes livable.

This is a misuderstanding of the Matthew passage. The people taken are not taken from the earth; they are taken from life by drowning just as those caught in the fire will be taken from life by being burned to death. Noah was taken up from the earth on a vessal that soared above the earth and the devastations that were upon it.

That is a rather broad statement. There are Christian teachers that misinterpret the "taken" phrase however true Christianity would correctly interpret it.

I am in Jesus and Jesus is in me. What I have spoken is what I believe.

I am not going to be able to see something that isn't there. Maybe you could draw me a picture with an arrow pointing to it, lol.

 

[Muffled]

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (NKJV)

If you read the verse carefully and in context with verse 6, the meaning will become clear. Verse 5 states that Christians enter God’s kingdom. It does not say that the kingdom enters into Christian's hearts or that the kingdom is here now.

Verse 6 is speaking of someone who is Spirit. Notice the phrase, “and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit,” We will not be "born of the Spirit" until the resurrection at the final trumpet (1 Cor 15:52). At this point in our lives, we are only begotten with the spirit (1 John 5:1; 1 Pet 1:3).

Now notice several other verses, which clarify John 3:5:

James 1:18: God begets His children with the word.

I Peter 1:22-23: God’s truth is obeyed through or with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:26: We are all washed by the water of the word.

In the ceremony of baptism, we are symbolically buried in a watery grave, and then emerge out of the water to walk in newness of life. In John 3:5, Christ referred to the necessity of being born both of water and of the Spirit. In the Bible, water is often used as a type of the Holy Spirit (John 7:38–39). Emerging from the waters of baptism is a symbolic birth—a type of our actual rebirth at the resurrection.

The two can't be separated. If one enters a lighted room the light is on him as well as he being in it. The same is true for the Kingdom of God, entering into that Kingdom means that the Kingdom is within you.

Lu 17:21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

Born and begotten are tantamount to the same thing. The last trumpet does not bring about spiritual rebirth but physical change.

I Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That is living water not just water. Water is a symbol of cleansing in the Bible and John the Baptist represented it as repentance, a spiritual cleansing. A birth of repentance is necessary to enter the kingdom of God. If a person is still holding on to his old sinful ways he will not be able to enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[james2ko]

The two can't be separated. If one enters a lighted room the light is on him as well as he being in it. The same is true for the Kingdom of God, entering into that Kingdom means that the Kingdom is within you.

1. That's a good analogy but I don't think it would work here because it imposes the false premise that everyone has access to the lit room. The door to the room will not be open to all at the time Christ comes to establish the kigndom, (see parable of the 10 virgins--Matt 25:1-13) therefore, we can conclude the kingdom of God is not within each person. Let us not compare an unchanging spiritual truth with an inconsistent physical one.

Lu 17:21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.

2. not necessarily see here

That is living water not just water. Water is a symbol of cleansing in the Bible and John the Baptist represented it as repentance, a spiritual cleansing. A birth of repentance is necessary to enter the kingdom of God. If a person is still holding on to his old sinful ways he will not be able to enter the Kingdom of God. I Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

3. I believe God has a profound sense of irony. He uses the physical birth process to mimic our spiritual birth into His kingdom. At baptism, the Christian is begotten (conceived) with the Holy Spirit by the Father, just as Christ was begotten in Mary's womb by the Father. Once begotten, a Christian takes on the mind of Christ (Phil. 2:5), who now lives in him (Gal. 2:20).

Similarly, physical life begins when the human father's sperm unites with the mother's ovum. In the reproduction process, an egg has to be fertilized by a sperm cell. It then becomes "sealed off," unable to be re-fertilized by another sperm. Like the newly begotten baby grows in its mother's womb, the Christian must also grow before he can leave the "womb" (2 Pe 3:18). The church is described as "Jerusalem above" referred to as the "Mother of us all" (Gal 4:26). Like any good mother, the church nurtures and feeds her unborn children so they may grow within her womb.

This process of growing and developing in the womb will not be complete until the resurrection--when we will finally be born as spirit composed beings and take on the image, nature, and character of our Parent and elder brother (Psa 17:15; Phil 3:21; 1Jn 3:1-2) much in the same way a little fetus is born to look like and take on the characteristics of their physical parents and siblings.

We are currently begotten but not yet born into the kingdom. After all, a Christian (like a human fetus) can "miscarry," if he does not continue in the right path--if he does not "endure to the end" (Matt. 24:13; 10:22). In this way, the parallel between physical and spiritual development in the womb-gestation-expands. It's no coincidence the Holy Spirit inspired the apostle Paul to say:

"For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body." (Rom 8:22-23)​

God has carefully created an unmistakable comparison--a parallel--between human birth and divine birth at the time of the resurrection. That which is "born of the flesh is flesh"-is a physical human being. And that which is "born of the spirit is spirit"-is a divine spirit-composed being.

Born and begotten are tantamount to the same thing. The last trumpet does not bring about spiritual rebirth but physical change.

4. The confusion between the words born and begotten is completely understandable because the Greek uses one word (Gennao) to describe both. Begettal, starts the process--born, depicts its completion. It is natural for English-speaking people to think of conception and begettal as having happened, without yet having a birth.

This would be foreign to a Greek-speaking person of 2,000 years ago. He would think of begettal as the primary meaning, with the entire rest of the process, that culminated in the birth, as the secondary meaning. Those who speak English talk of one's birthdate as when he separated from the womb. This would carry a different meaning for one who spoke Greek, because he would see the birth as part of a nine-month process from begettal, but would still have only the word gennao to represent the whole process.

What's important to understand, however, is that most scholars put primary emphasis on begettal by the Father as the meaning of gennao.

 

[ellenjanuary]

"Rapture theory?!?!"

Back when I knew nothing, I heard about Rapture... the work of some minister taking Thessalonians and other assorted scraps of scripture, stirring up a witch's brew, back in the thirties. It's about as real as... well, creationism.

Now that I know stuff... what is wrong with you people? Muffled, you think this is a good thing?

Ya know, I'm certified; I should understand crazy things... but I ain't understanding.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I Cor 15:51 ¶ Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Sleep is used as a metaphor for death in this verse.
I trust that you understand that He was alive at the time and not dead
I don't know what language you speak but I speak English and "then" means at that very moment.
I can see you are having a problem understanding this so I will try to explain it to you. The Kingdom of God is spiritual. As such there is nothing physical about it. However spirits inhabit bodies (that is what I am), so where the body goes the spirit goes with it and the Kingdom of God is present. If the body changes from the aging unto death state that now is the reality into a body that does not age unto death that will be the reality at rapture, then the kingdom of God is not changed by that one bit.

Was sleep a metaphor for death at John 11vs11-14?
[Psalm 6v5;13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Ecc 9v5]
Was Daniel using a metaphor at Daniel 12vs2,13?

If there is nothing physical/material about God's kingdom then how do you explain the living real 'kings' [political powers] of Daniel 2v44?

The present-day kings [political rulers] are alive at the 'time of the feet' of Daniel 2vs42,43. Aren't we nearing that time?

Who is the crowned King [ruler] of God's kingdom?
True, God's kingdom is heavenly but will effect earth.
Matthew 6vs9,10.

God's spirit is neuter: 'it' or 'itself' [Num 11v17; Rom 8vs16,26 KJV]
Did Adam have an 'invisible personality' inside of him?
Adam did not exist before creation.
From dust, Adam returned to dust.
No part of Adam lived on anywhere in heaven or earth.

 

[Muffled]

"Rapture theory?!?!"

Back when I knew nothing, I heard about Rapture... the work of some minister taking Thessalonians and other assorted scraps of scripture, stirring up a witch's brew, back in the thirties. It's about as real as... well, creationism.

Now that I know stuff... what is wrong with you people? Muffled, you think this is a good thing?

Ya know, I'm certified; I should understand crazy things... but I ain't understanding.

I think you would be hard put to find evidence of this. My guess is that you are applying hyperbole to your imaginations.

I like it better than being crispy crittered.

You are not able to ascertain the reality of either. The proof is in the pudding but by then it is too late.

If you think standing around in a building instead of evacuating when the fire alarm goes off is sane, my perspective is that your understanding of sanity is convoluted.

 

[Muffled]

1. That's a good analogy but I don't think it would work here because it imposes the false premise that everyone has access to the lit room. The door to the room will not be open to all at the time Christ comes to establish the kigndom, (see parable of the 10 virgins--Matt 25:1-13) therefore, we can conclude the kingdom of God is not within each person. Let us not compare an unchanging spiritual truth with an inconsistent physical one.

I find evidence to the contrary. What evidence do you have to support this statement?

This is an interesting passage to use since the virgins are supplying the light by thier lamps. How does one's light go out? Is it a lack of faith? The person is just not prepared to endure until the end.

This is a true statement because a person has to enter the kingdom to have it within. It does not follow from the premises though.

 

[james2ko]

I find evidence to the contrary. What evidence do you have to support this statement?

God is not attempting to save all of mankind in this age. That's the primary reason Jesus spoke to the general public in parables.

Mat 13:10-11 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Mar 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
​

This is an interesting passage to use since the virgins are supplying the light by thier lamps. How does one's light go out? Is it a lack of faith? The person is just not prepared to endure until the end.

I agree.

This is a true statement because a person has to enter the kingdom to have it within. It does not follow from the premises though.

I explained how the term "within you" taken from Luke 17:21 is a mistranslation in post# 287 point 2.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God is not attempting to save all of mankind in this age. That's the primary reason Jesus spoke to the general public in parables. Mat 13:10-11 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.Mar 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
I agree.
I explained how the term "within you" taken from Luke 17:21 is a mistranslation in post# 287 point 2.

If God were not attempting he would not have made his desire known at 2nd Peter 3v9 that God desires none to be destroyed but all to repent.

If God were not attempting he would not be having the good news of God's kingdom proclaimed world wide or on a global scale as it is being done today.
-Matthew 24v14

All chose to be a sheep or a goat [Matt 25v32]
People corrupt themselves. Deut 32v5; 30v19

The kingdom or government was not within the Pharisees of Luke 17vs20,21.
Luke 19vs11-15 shows the kingdom would not appear right away.
Not til the time of Daniel 2v44; 7vs13,14,18

 

[james2ko]

If God were not attempting he would not have made his desire known at 2nd Peter 3v9 that God desires none to be destroyed but all to repent.

If God were not attempting he would not be having the good news of God's kingdom proclaimed world wide or on a global scale as it is being done today.-Matthew 24v14

All chose to be a sheep or a goat [Matt 25v32]
People corrupt themselves. Deut 32v5; 30v19

You and I have discussed this UR, starting here. These arguments were clearly refuted so thanks for barging in on our conversation. This isn't the first time you've rudely interrupted my conversation only to repeat something we've already discussed.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You and I have discussed this UR, starting here. These arguments were clearly refuted so thanks for barging in on our conversation. This isn't the first time you've rudely interrupted my conversation only to repeat something we've already discussed.

Then, instead of a hostile attack attitude so that I stop posting,
why not address the Scriptures I posted?

Please mention when on a public forum you conversation is private.
Thank you.

 

[james2ko]

Then, instead of a hostile attack attitude so that I stop posting, why not address the Scriptures I posted? Please mention when on a public forum you conversation is private.
Thank you.

Hostile? And here I thought I was being polite. You posting a question is not the issue. It is the fact that you are simply repeating verses from a topic we have thoroughly discussed and were clearly refuted. If you want to refresh your memory on how your verses were addressed, take a look at the link provided in post 294.

The proper way to join a conversation is to post a reply without specifically addressing anyone. This provides the option to the individuals engaged in the discussion to address your reply or not. Had you done it this way, I would have simply ignored your reply but perhaps Muffled or someone else would have commented.

 

[Judge_not]

Remember also the parable of the 2 brothers,or rather the Prodigal son. One wasted his Fathers inheritence, the other stayed home and was obidient...when the Prodigal returned his Father greeted him with open Arms and killed his fattest calf for a feast....you know the rest.... Of course the "righteous" son was angered saying, Why do you give him who has wasted everyhing, our best calf, when I have been better and more righteous???? His Father answered him and said "My son was Dead, but now he is alive and come home...." You know Jesus spoke in parables, we are to UNDERSTAND them...diddn't Jesus say "If you do not understand this parable, what can you understand?" So when we call ourselves righteous and worthy and say it "High up in the seats of the synagoges, ect..." Do we have our reward? Our reward on Earth? But is it when we shut our closet and say our prayers in secret, like jesus said, It will be heard. Also considering no man will know the day or hour, No man should judge who is more worthy and who is not, that isn't our place. Some may think they are on the righteous path and the door will be shut to them, "I do not know thee" because....they have had thier reward (on earth)
~peace
Miss Teary

 

[Judge_not]

I find evidence to the contrary. What evidence do you have to support this statement?

This is an interesting passage to use since the virgins are supplying the light by thier lamps. How does one's light go out? Is it a lack of faith? The person is just not prepared to endure until the end.

This is a true statement because a person has to enter the kingdom to have it within. It does not follow from the premises though.

Hiya Muffled,
I Understand the parable as meaning the 5 virgins who did not bring oil could not light thier lamps. They were not prepared. They had no oil to light thier lamps and the door was shut to them. It is written, as you probably know..."Seek first the kingdom of God" Many will think they are prepared, but will be surprised when the door is shut to them.
~Respectfully
Miss teary

 

[ellenjanuary]

I think you would be hard put to find evidence of this. My guess is that you are applying hyperbole to your imaginations.

I like it better than being crispy crittered.

You are not able to ascertain the reality of either. The proof is in the pudding but by then it is too late.

If you think standing around in a building instead of evacuating when the fire alarm goes off is sane, my perspective is that your understanding of sanity is convoluted.

I see NH-USA, I think, Nashua...

"I like it better than being crispy crittered." That's not a good morality, that's Pascal's wager... I think it is dangerous. Just watched Sam Harris tell it - people who believe in a Rapture have no impetuous to create a better world.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Remember also the parable of the 2 brothers,or rather the Prodigal son. One wasted his Fathers inheritence, the other stayed home and was obidient...when the Prodigal returned his Father greeted him with open Arms and killed his fattest calf for a feast....you know the rest.... Of course the "righteous" son was angered saying, Why do you give him who has wasted everyhing, our best calf, when I have been better and more righteous???? His Father answered him and said "My son was Dead, but now he is alive and come home...." You know Jesus spoke in parables, we are to UNDERSTAND them...diddn't Jesus say "If you do not understand this parable, what can you understand?" So when we call ourselves righteous and worthy and say it "High up in the seats of the synagoges, ect..." Do we have our reward? Our reward on Earth? But is it when we shut our closet and say our prayers in secret, like jesus said, It will be heard. Also considering no man will know the day or hour, No man should judge who is more worthy and who is not, that isn't our place. Some may think they are on the righteous path and the door will be shut to them, "I do not know thee" because....they have had thier reward (on earth)

Reward on earth yes, present day earth. But what about the world [earth] to come?
Those that have their reward now [in full] will not be there in the future.
Matthew 12v32 B. 2nd Peter 3v13 says in the new world, new earth, where righteousness will dwell. That reward is still future.

Those faithful non-Christians of Hebrews chapter 11 did not receive their reward or promise.
-Heb 11vs13,39; Acts 24v15

The earthly promise or earthly reward promised to Abraham is still future that all families of the earth will be blessed, and all nations of the earth will be blessed. Blessed with healing or curing. -
Genesis 12v3; 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2.

So besides a heavenly reward for those of Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10, there is also an earthly reward for humble meek ones to inherit earth forever starting during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.

-Matt 5v5; Psalm 37 vs11,29; Matthew 25vs32,46.