The Rapture

[smokydot]

Yeah, that's the point. It's something that was in no teaching of the churches until then. And most churches weren't convinced.

Well, prior to that, wasn't it all Catholicism?

Catholicism wasn't into prophecy, Revelation, and the symbolic stuff.

But Paul does clearly refer to a transporting (rapture) of believers from the earth to the air at the second coming of Jesus, in 1 Th 4:13-18.

What do you make of that?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Rapture is the act of transporting.
At Christ's second coming, those in Christ who are in the ground (dead) will rise
and then those in Christ who are on the ground (alive), together with the risen,
will be transported (raptured) from the earth to the air to be with him (1 Th 4:16-17).

Where does it say the living ones on earth will be transported without dying and having a resurrection first?

Where in Scripture are 'clouds' associated with the living?

Acts 1v9 says Jesus was taken up [resurrected] and a cloud received him out of sight.

So by the expression 'caught up in the clouds' at 1st Thess 4v17 is showing 'then' [after] we the living that remain alive will [die]. Die because they can only be 'caught up in the clouds' as Jesus was 'caught up in the clouds' which is by resurrection. No on goes to heaven without dying first because as 1st Cor 15v50 says flesh and blood can Not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. Jn 17:3
Your understanding of eternal life and immortality are not found in the NT.
You are forcing the NT into the meaning of some other system, and are doing it violence in the process.

Yes, John 17v3 says this is everlasting or eternal life.
The verse does Not say: this is immortality

Adam was not immortal.
Adam could be destroyed.
Adam was not death proof.

Someone immortal is death proof or can not be destroyed.
Doesn't the sinning soul die?_______-Ezekiel 18vs4,18
God has life from within and can not be destroyed.
Only God can grant or gift immortality to another.
Once one is immortal, one has life within oneself or self contained
The immortal do not need outside forces to remain alive.

John 5v26 says God gave or granted immortality to Jesus.
[having life from within]
1st Cor 15v50 B corruption does not inherit incorruption.
In order to become death proof mortals [angels and humans]
would need to first 'put on' immortality. 1Cor 15vs53,54
So Jesus faithful 'brothers' [Matt 25v40; 1Cor 15v50] will be changed from mortal to immortal upon their resurrection. Angels still remain as mortal. Otherwise, Satan and his fallen angels could not have fallen away.

Whereas humans on earth, like Adam, are offered everlasting or eternal life.
Humans are Not self contained. We all need to be breathe, eat, drink, sleep, etc. besides obey God in order to go on living. Angels need to obey God to keep on living. According to Scripture most angels are obedient and have everlasting life in the heavens. Only Satan and his demons loose their life.
As Hebrews 2v14 B says Jesus destroys Satan.

Jesus offers the majority everlasting or eternal life because Jesus was talking about living forever on a paradisaic earth as originally offered to Adam.
The healing or curing of nations takes place on earth.
-Rev 22v2; Genesis 12v3; 22vs17,18.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well, prior to that, wasn't it all Catholicism?

Catholicism wasn't into prophecy, Revelation, and the symbolic stuff.

But Paul does clearly refer to a transporting (rapture) of believers from the earth to the air at the second coming of Jesus, in 1 Th 4:13-18.

What do you make of that?

First off, no, the ancient churches aren't all Roman Catholic.... there is the Greek Orthodox [which the Russians adopted], and the Coptic Church.

Secondly, Roman Catholics are into symbolism.

 

[smokydot]

Where does it say the living ones on earth will be transported without dying and having a resurrection first?

". . .we believe that God will bring with Jesus (the spirits of) those who have fallen asleep in him (died). According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the cominng of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep (died). For the Lord himself will come down from heaven. . .and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them (the risen) to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."--1 Thess 4:14-17

Apparently they were concerned that those among them who died would miss their place in the great events when the Lord comes, and Paul assures them this will not be the case. The dead in Christ will rise first, (their physical bodies will reunite with their spirits in the air with Christ) and then those in Christ who are still alive when Christ comes will be caught up together with them in the air.

Where in Scripture are 'clouds' associated with the living?

The truths in Scripture are not imparted by "associations."
They are imparted propositionally.

Well, there is Jesus at his transfiguration. . .and at his second coming where we will see him coming on the clouds.

Acts 1v9 says Jesus was taken up [resurrected] and a cloud received him out of sight.
So by the expression 'caught up in the clouds' at 1st Thess 4v17 is showing 'then' [after] we the living that remain alive will [die]. Die because they can only be 'caught up in the clouds' as Jesus was 'caught up in the clouds' which is by resurrection. No on goes to heaven without dying first because as 1st Cor 15v50 says flesh and blood can Not inherit the kingdom of God.

Oh, dear. . .by that method of interpretation I could show that Scripture says the moon is made of bleu cheese.

Paul was not confused or illiterate. If he meant they would die, he would have said just that.
He did not say that, and that is not what he means.

And as I explained in post #192, you do not understand the term "flesh and blood" as Paul uses it, and you misuse it.
There will be physical bodies at the resurrection, just as Jesus' resurrected body is physical.

 

[smokydot]

First off, no, the ancient churches aren't all Roman Catholic.... there is the Greek Orthodox [which the Russians adopted], and the Coptic Church.

Secondly, Roman Catholics are into symbolism.

But are they into prophetic symbolism. . .in the American church?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Paul was not confused or illiterate.

He certainly could have been... or most likely was. He had an amanuensis write his letters for him, and the letters to the churches and back to him would have been read by the one literate person in the group.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

But are they into prophetic symbolism?

Yep..... which is why they interpret the NT correctly, at least regarding this issue.

 

[AK4]

Actually, he didn't say that. At the second coming of Jesus at the end of time (2 Th 1:7-8), note where Paul locates himself (2 Th 1:7-10).
He does not locate himself coming from heaven with Jesus (1 Th 4:14),** but on earth, waiting for relief when Jesus comes in judgment:

Yes and URAVIP2ME basically states that Paul at that time is in heaven, so my point was proven by the scriptures. And if you are stating that Paul is on earth as in alive [but dead, but somehow alive] when Jesus returns then you are wrong also.

"He. . .will give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well.

To US-- those who are repose and those who are not reposed at that time. Paul is reposed. If the Lord returns now as i am typing then i am in that group who has not reposed, who are troubled who are GOING THROUGH GREAT TRIBULATION, ETC ETC, whether in my lifetime it is the end-time or not.

So. . .both relief and judgment come at the same time. . .and the time is near (Ro 13:11-12).

Agreed. But none of the elect is "raptured" or taken out of tribulation before then. Read all the scriptures. It say "we [those that are the elect} are apointed to ttribulation not taken out of. Thus comes the false doctrine of the rapture that says that they are not put in or to go through great tribulation. Do i need to quote the scriptures that say this.

[**1Th 4:15: "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."]

We who are STILL ALIVE--- Paul and the Apostles are DEAD----DEAD. Not in heaven alive but dead as of right now.Unitl Jesus returns and resurrects them and all those who are dead and CHANGES those who are alive then nothing contradicts the scriptures with what im saying.

And so Paul does not see himself asleep, but alive on earth at the second coming of Jesus Christ at the end of time (1 Th 4:15, 2 Th 1:7),

Oh he doesnt???? Well lets throw out these scriptures then----

2 Tim 4:6 For I am already being poured R179 out as a drink offering, and the time of my R180 departure has come. 7 I R181 have fought the good fight, I have finished the R182 course, I have kept the R183 faith; 8 in the future there is R184 laid up for me the R185 crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that R186 day; and not only to me, but also to all R187 who have loved His appearing. R188

Not to mention how what you said will blatantly contradict his preaching on the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. Think about it.

when God brings with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him (1 Th 4:14).

So you believe he is not "fallen asleep"?

Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Check your bible and not what youve been taught and heard parrotted over and over again and see if that is what he said. I assure it is not. Read it

People think there is a verse in the Bible that says: "To be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord." There is no such verse. It says, "To be absent from the body AND TO BE [future tense] present with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:08). NO ONE meets the Lord before the "Last Trump" as Paul himself declared in I Cor. 15:52.

To nail this in the coffin heres something else

The words "AND to be" puts this presence with the Lord at a time INTO THE FUTURE after Paul's death at a time of resurrection. Paul did not LIE when he taught us that He, like all saints, would be resurrected from the DEAD, not at his death, but AT THE LAST TRUMP (I Cor. 15:52).

No, it DOESN'T say that "...the INSTANT we are way from our bodies we are present with the Lord." Where do you see that word "instant" in Scripture. Paul wrote these verses. Did Paul know when he personally would be "with the Lord?" Yes, of course he did: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye [yes, but WHEN?], AT THE LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we {notice that Paul includes himself, that he will be DEAD, and 'the DEAD shall be raised.' One of those 'dead' will be Paul himself]...." (I Cor. 15:52). So did Paul lie, and mean that he would be changed "instantly" as you suggest AT death, rather than FROM the dead, AT THE LAST TRUMP?

This also answers your other post

 

[smokydot]

He certainly could have been... or most likely was. He had an amanuensis write his letters for him, and the letters to the churches and back to him would have been read by the one literate person in the group.

There is indication that Paul may have had a serious eye illness (Gal 4:13,15), which would account for a stenographer,
and when he did put pen to "paper" his writ was large (Gal 6:11).

But I don't see any indication in the NT that Paul was illiterate.
He was educated (Ac 22:3), spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic (Ac 22:2), was a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee (Ac 23:6).

Do you suggest illiteracy simply because of his stenographer, or do you see other indications in the NT that he may have been illiterate?

 

[smokydot]

Yep..... which is why they interpret the NT correctly, at least regarding this issue.

Interesting. . .then do they tackle Revelation?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

There is indication that Paul may have had a serious eye illness (Gal 4:13,15), which would account for a stenographer,
and when he did put pen to "paper" his writ was large (Gal 6:11).

But I don't see any indication in the NT that Paul was illiterate.
He was educated (Ac 22:3), spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic (Ac 22:2), was a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee (Ac 23:6).

Do you suggest illiteracy simply because of his stenographer, or do you see other indications in the NT that he may have been illiterate?

In the ancient world, you could be well educated and illiterate.

The large writing is indicative of three things:

1) illiterate people could usually write two or three letters, and perhaps their name

2) Paul was not skilled at writing

3) Often, when a letter was written by a scribe, it was authenticated by the author by a signiture [Gal. 6:11] because - like today - many people were skeptical of the written word

 

[smokydot]

Yes and URAVIP2ME basically states that Paul at that time is in heaven, so my point was proven by the scriptures. And if you are stating that Paul is on earth as in alive [but dead, but somehow alive] when Jesus returns then you are wrong also.

I thought I was pretty clear in my post on the rapture. I'll repeat.
1) Paul thought he would be alive when Jesus returns.
2) Paul died before Jesus returns.
3) Paul will be one of those who rises with an immortal physical body when Jesus returns.

To US-- those who are repose and those who are not reposed at that time. Paul is reposed. If the Lord returns now as i am typing then i am in that group who has not reposed, who are troubled who are GOING THROUGH GREAT TRIBULATION, ETC ETC, whether in my lifetime it is the end-time or not.

Paul is now reposed, but he didn't think he would be when Jesus returns because he thought Jesus would return in his lifetime.

Agreed. But none of the elect is "raptured" or taken out of tribulation before then. Read all the scriptures. It say "we [those that are the elect} are apointed to ttribulation not taken out of. Thus comes the false doctrine of the rapture that says that they are not put in or to go through great tribulation. Do i need to quote the scriptures that say this.

Agreed. I don't think Scripture teaches a specific tribulation before the rapture.
That alI comes from (poor) interpretation of symbolic prophecy, and not from specific teaching.
I think the great tribulation is the Church age, between the death of Christ and his second coming.

We who are STILL ALIVE--- Paul and the Apostles are DEAD----DEAD. Not in heaven alive but dead as of right now.Unitl Jesus returns and resurrects them and all those who are dead and CHANGES those who are alive then nothing contradicts the scriptures with what im saying.

Agreed.

Oh he doesnt???? Well lets throw out these scriptures then----

2 Tim 4:6 For I am already being poured R179 out as a drink offering, and the time of my R180 departure has come. 7 I R181 have fought the good fight, I have finished the R182 course, I have kept the R183 faith; 8 in the future there is R184 laid up for me the R185 crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that R186 day; and not only to me, but also to all R187 who have loved His appearing. R188
Not to mention how what you said will blatantly contradict his preaching on the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead. Think about it.
So you believe he is not "fallen asleep"?
Check your bible and not what youve been taught and heard parrotted over and over again and see if that is what he said. I assure it is not. Read it

We are not in disagreement. I think the problem is misunderstanding of my post.
I didn't say Paul would be alive at the second coming, I said Paul thought he would be alive at the second coming because he thought it would occur during his lifetime.

I think this may be where the confusion occurs.
The reason I pointed out Paul's thinking was to address one of the many errors of "pre-tribulationism,"
that the Church will be transported from the earth before the "great tribulation,"
and then will return with Jesus at his second coming.
I am showing that Paul did not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture because he does not see himself coming from heaven at Jesus' second coming,
but sees himself on earth, which means there was no rapture seven years prior to Jesus second coming, or else. . .Paul missed it.

People think there is a verse in the Bible that says: "To be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord." There is no such verse. It says, "To be absent from the body AND TO BE [future tense] present with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:08). NO ONE meets the Lord before the "Last Trump" as Paul himself declared in I Cor. 15:52.

Agreed, there is no verse with "is". . .but if Paul were not going to be with Lord when he becomes absent from the body,
why would he at that moment in time "prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord?"
What would be preferable about an "interim" location away from or without the Lord? It is clearly "with the Lord" that he wants to be.
If he is not going "to be with the Lord" when he is "absent from the body," why then would he want to be "absent from the body" at that time?

In addition, the verse literally says "we. . .think it good rather to go away from home out of the body and to come home to the Lord."
Both "to go" and "to come" are in the same tense.

Also, the translation, "to be away from the body and at home with the Lord,"
and the literal, "to go away from home out of the body and to come home to the Lord,"
are stated as one event occuring at death.

So while there is no statement that links the absence and the presence with "is,"
they are still clearly linked in a manner that means one event.

To nail this in the coffin heres something else

The words "AND to be" puts this presence with the Lord at a time INTO THE FUTURE after Paul's death at a time of resurrection. Paul did not LIE when he taught us that He, like all saints, would be resurrected from the DEAD, not at his death, but AT THE LAST TRUMP (I Cor. 15:52).

Agreed. . .this is all a misunderstanding of my post. I guess I didn't make it clear.

This also answers your other post (#246).

 

[smokydot]

In the ancient world, you could be well educated and illiterate.

The large writing is indicative of three things:

1) illiterate people could usually write two or three letters, and perhaps their name

2) Paul was not skilled at writing

3) Often, when a letter was written by a scribe, it was authenticated by the author by a signiture [Gal. 6:11] because - like today - many people were skeptical of the written word

But I don't see any indication that he was illiterate.

I do see a suggestion that he had an eye illness, which would account for both the use of a scribe and the large writ.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

But I don't see any indication that he was illiterate.

I do see a suggestion that he had an eye illness, which would account for both the use of a scribe and the large writ.

Maybe if you had read hundreds of papyri documents including letters, curses, divorce and marriage certificates, receipts and magical spells that had larger signatures [and poor spelling for that matter] from illiterate people you'd have a different opinion.

Such a signature would be followed with a note from the scribe which goes something like this "wrote with his own hand." Paul only wrote "I, Paul" and the scribe criticized his writing, obsolving himself from the poor writing from the illiterate man.

note: http://books.google.com/books?id=9o...ed=0CC0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=illiterate&f=false

page 291 - http://books.google.com/books?id=hj...esnum=5&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

An example from a marriage document is P. Tebt. 104 (= P 21 of Geneva, 1900), where the illiterate signed "I, Philiscus" and the scribe wrote for him, "I, Dionysius ... wrote for him as he was illiterate." Page 452 http://books.google.com/books?id=Lh1XAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=papyrus+signature&hl=en&ei=N1zATJ7NBcP58AbO84T7Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwATge#v=onepage&q=papyrus%20signature&f=false

 

[smokydot]

According to Scripture the dead really do die.
[Ecc 9v5; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; John 11vs11-14]
Isn't Adam dead?
Adam had no life before he was created on earth.
At death Adam had no life anywhere.

Doesn't Acts 24v15 says future tense there is going to be a resurrection.

Those of Jesus 'brothers' [Matt 25v40; 1Cor 15v50] are called to immortal heavenly life.
Those that died before Jesus do not go to heaven, but await an earthly resurrection as the prophet Daniel looked forward [12vs2,13].

Jesus 'brothers' go to heaven when they are resurrected.
Except for those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6, the rest of mankind is offered by Jesus: 'everlasting life'.

Please notice that Adam was offered, not immortality, but everlasting life.
There is a difference. Everlasting life does not have life from within [immortal] but everlasting life is dependent on besides obedience,

Please see the General Religious Debates section in this Form, in the thread Salvation, my post #268, which shows the clear NT teaching on faith vs. works.
Everlasting (eternal) life does not depend on obedience, as you state above (red script).
It depends only on faith. . .which is evidenced by obedience, but is not the faith itself.

but like Adam to continue to breathe, eat, sleep, etc. So when Jesus says eternal life or everlasting life he not necessarily offering immortality, but the same offer as was originally extended to Adam at the time of his creation.
So the resurrected ones to heaven [Rev 20v6] are part of the earlier of 'first' resurrection and they put on immortality.

You misunderstand the meaning of the "first resurrection."
See post #227 for clarification.

Those that are resurrected later do not put on immortality but can gain eternal or everlasting life in human perfection of sound mind and body with the prospect of living forever right here on a paradisaic earth.

You do not have a NT understanding of "mortal," "immortal," and "eternal (everlasting) life."

Mortal means physical body subject to physical death.
Immortal means physical body not subject to physical death.
Eternal (everlasting) life means the life of God in ones' spirit forever.

Those in the lake of fire will live forever, but according to the NT they do not have eternal or everlasting life.

Adam was created with an immortal physical body and with eternal life in his spirit.
His disobedience resulted in the loss of both.
The resulting mortality of his physical body was the sign of his spiritual death (loss of eternal life).
After the fall, Adam's body was mortal and his spirit was dead in sin.

Adam's spirit was reborn into eternal life with his faith in God's promise (Jesus Christ - Gen 3:15).
Since that time, spiritual rebirth (of one's dead spirit - Eph 2:1,3) has come through faith in God's promise (Jesus Christ).
Since the death of Christ, spiritual rebirth has come through faith in Jesus Christ, God's promise.

Do the sheep-like people of Matthew 25v32 die ?

They have already died In that passage, which refers to the Final Judgment at the end of time after the second coming of Jesus and the general resurrection of mankind.

It seems you are trying to force the Bible into some other system totally foreign to it, and thereby are doing it violence in your contra-Biblical "interpretations."

 

[smokydot]

Maybe if you had read hundreds of papyri documents including letters, curses, divorce and marriage certificates, receipts and magical spells that had larger signatures [and poor spelling for that matter] from illiterate people you'd have a different opinion.

Such a signature would be followed with a note from the scribe which goes something like this "wrote with his own hand." Paul only wrote "I, Paul" and the scribe criticized his writing, obsolving himself from the poor writing from the illiterate man.

What are you specifically referring to in Gal when you say the scribe criticized his writing?

While illiteracy may have been common at the time, it's hard to believe it was so in Israel, at least not among the Pharisees.

note: Reading papyri, writing ancient history - Google Books

page 291 - Egyptian Papyri and Papyrus-Hunting - Google Books

An example from a marriage document is P. Tebt. 104 (= P 21 of Geneva, 1900), where the illiterate signed "I, Philiscus" and the scribe wrote for him, "I, Dionysius ... wrote for him as he was illiterate." Page 452 The Tebtunis papyri ... - Google Books

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What are you specifically referring to in Gal when you say the scribe criticized his writing?

"See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand! "

While illiteracy may have been common at the time, it's hard to believe it was so in Israel, at least not among the Pharisees.

That's because you're in a culture where learning is exclusively literate, and theirs was exclusively illiterate - a teacher would read aloud and the pupils memorized. This is especially true for the poor. Really the only literate people were slaves (teachers), some of the elite (particularly doctors and historians), and family members of literate people.

The really cool thing about all this is that Paul (whether literate or not) had to compose his letters from memory - paper and ink were too precious to waste with drafts. Imagine composing Romans in your head and then dictating it to a scribe. That's pretty amazing.

 

[AK4]

I thought I was pretty clear in my post on the rapture. I'll repeat.
1) Paul thought he would be alive when Jesus returns.
2) Paul died before Jesus returns.
3) Paul will be one of those who rises with an immortal physical body when Jesus returns.



Paul is now reposed, but he didn't think he would be when Jesus returns because he thought Jesus would return in his lifetime.



Agreed. I don't think Scripture teaches a specific tribulation before the rapture.
That alI comes from (poor) interpretation of symbolic prophecy, and not from specific teaching.
I think the great tribulation is the Church age, between the death of Christ and his second coming.

Agreed.



We are not in disagreement. I think the problem is misunderstanding of my post.
I didn't say Paul would be alive at the second coming, I said Paul thought he would be alive at the second coming because he thought it would occur during his lifetime.

I think this may be where the confusion occurs.
The reason I pointed out Paul's thinking was to address one of the many errors of "pre-tribulationism,"
that the Church will be transported from the earth before the "great tribulation,"
and then will return with Jesus at his second coming.
I am showing that Paul did not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture because he does not see himself coming from heaven at Jesus' second coming,
but sees himself on earth, which means there was no rapture seven years prior to Jesus second coming, or else. . .Paul missed it.



Agreed, there is no verse with "is". . .but if Paul were not going to be with Lord when he becomes absent from the body,
why would he at that moment in time "prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord?"
What would be preferable about an "interim" location away from or without the Lord? It is clearly "with the Lord" that he wants to be.
If he is not going "to be with the Lord" when he is "absent from the body," why then would he want to be "absent from the body" at that time?

In addition, the verse literally says "we. . .think it good rather to go away from home out of the body and to come home to the Lord."
Both "to go" and "to come" are in the same tense.

Also, the translation, "to be away from the body and at home with the Lord,"
and the literal, "to go away from home out of the body and to come home to the Lord,"
are stated as one event occuring at death.

So while there is no statement that links the absence and the presence with "is,"
they are still clearly linked in a manner that means one event.



Agreed. . .this is all a misunderstanding of my post. I guess I didn't make it clear.

Sorry for my confusion. I am glad there is at least someone who can see through false doctrines. May God bless you with even more knowledge of the truth.

 

[smokydot]

Sorry for my confusion. I am glad there is at least someone who can see through false doctrines. May God bless you with even more knowledge of the truth.

Let's do it together. . .