The Rapture

[smokydot]

"See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand! "
That's because you're in a culture where learning is exclusively literate, and theirs was exclusively illiterate - a teacher would read aloud and the pupils memorized. This is especially true for the poor. Really the only literate people were slaves (teachers), some of the elite (particularly doctors and historians), and family members of literate people.
The really cool thing about all this is that Paul (whether literate or not) had to compose his letters from memory - paper and ink were too precious to waste with drafts. Imagine composing Romans in your head and then dictating it to a scribe. That's pretty amazing.

Thanks for the info.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thanks for the info.

:foryou:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I do expect an apple on my desk. I prefer Braeburn.

 

[smokydot]

I do expect an apple on my desk. I prefer Braeburn.

You got it, Teach!

 

[smokydot]

I do expect an apple on my desk. I prefer Braeburn.

So did the Gospel writers also have scribes?

Were there multiple transcripts of the gospels in those times?

 

[smokydot]

Maybe if you had read hundreds of papyri documents including letters, curses, divorce and marriage certificates, receipts and magical spells that had larger signatures [and poor spelling for that matter] from illiterate people you'd have a different opinion.

Did you have to do that?

Such a signature would be followed with a note from the scribe which goes something like this "wrote with his own hand." Paul only wrote "I, Paul" and the scribe criticized his writing, obsolving himself from the poor writing from the illiterate man.

note: Reading papyri, writing ancient history - Google Books

page 291 - Egyptian Papyri and Papyrus-Hunting - Google Books

An example from a marriage document is P. Tebt. 104 (= P 21 of Geneva, 1900), where the illiterate signed "I, Philiscus" and the scribe wrote for him, "I, Dionysius ... wrote for him as he was illiterate." Page 452 The Tebtunis papyri ... - Google Books

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Did you have to do that?

Yep.....

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So did the Gospel writers also have scribes?

Were there multiple transcripts of the gospels in those times?

Yes and yes.

 

[AK4]

The really cool thing about all this is that Paul (whether literate or not) had to compose his letters from memory - paper and ink were too precious to waste with drafts. Imagine composing Romans in your head and then dictating it to a scribe. That's pretty amazing.

This is not necessarily true or untrue. Paul had to have copies of stuff he wrote and sent out to the churches because you have him saying this

2 Timothy 4:9-15 - 9 Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me: 10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry. 12 And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. 13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. 14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. F7


The parchments has to either be the originals or exact copies of his originals because he knew that what he wrote was going to be scripture and these books and parchments he had sent to Peter to look over and approve. Look

2Peter 3
14 Therefore, R159 beloved, R160 since you look for these things, be diligent to be found R161 by Him in peace, spotless R162 and blameless, 15 and regard the patience R163 of our Lord as salvation; just as also our R164 beloved brother Paul, according R165 to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these R166 things, in R167 which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable R168 distort, as they do also the R169 rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

So i dont think he did all this by memory, plus to add to it Paul admonishes to Timothy to always "study and show thyself approved" which i believe Paul always did himself in studying scriptures.

 

[Muffled]

O the horror!!

Do I detect a tongue in cheek? I will grant you that God is not bound to efficiency.

 

[Muffled]

Where does it say we shall not all die?

When was Jesus ascended or caught up in the clouds?
Wasn't it after his resurrection?

1st Thess 4v17 starts out with the word 'Then' or meaning after.
So they are alive at the time of Jesus 'glory' time Matt 25v31,40 and remain at the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth. This does not mean they never die as the sheep-like ones of verse 32 that have the prospect of never dying but living forever on a paradisaic earth. They go to heaven. In order to go to heaven they need to be caught up as Jesus was caught up after his resurrection.
Remember flesh and blood [physical] can not inherit God's kingdom.
1st Cor 15v50.

I Cor 15:51 ¶ Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Sleep is used as a metaphor for death in this verse.

I trust that you understand that He was alive at the time and not dead?

I don't know what language you speak but I speak English and "then" means at that very moment.

I can see you are having a problem understanding this so I will try to explain it to you. The Kingdom of God is spiritual. As such there is nothing physical about it. However spirits inhabit bodies (that is what I am), so where the body goes the spirit goes with it and the Kingdom of God is present. If the body changes from the aging unto death state that now is the reality into a body that does not age unto death that will be the reality at rapture, then the kingdom of God is not changed by that one bit.

 

[james2ko]

I Cor 15:51 ¶ Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Sleep is used as a metaphor for death in this verse.

I trust that you understand that He was alive at the time and not dead?

I don't know what language you speak but I speak English and "then" means at that very moment.

I can see you are having a problem understanding this so I will try to explain it to you. The Kingdom of God is spiritual. As such there is nothing physical about it. However spirits inhabit bodies (that is what I am), so where the body goes the spirit goes with it and the Kingdom of God is present. If the body changes from the aging unto death state that now is the reality into a body that does not age unto death that will be the reality at rapture, then the kingdom of God is not changed by that one bit.

Please provide scriptural proof of your position.

 

[Muffled]

Think: What is the price that sin pays? Isn't it death? Rom 6v23; 6v7
Since all are sinners all deserve death.
Only 'Death' stamps the price tag of sin as: Paid in Full.

The sheep-like people of Matt 25 v32 do just keep alive as people on earth.
But those 'brothers' of verse 40 can not take their flesh to heaven.
1st Cor 15v50

Everlasting life is offered to all that will live on earth either by salvation though the 'great tribulation' or via earthly resurrection. -Acts 24v15

Jesus 'brothers' are offered immortality.
Immortality means having life from within.
Whereas everlasting life is different.

Eternal life not only depends on obedience but also on continuing to breathe, eat, sleep, etc. like Adam had to do.

So those that are offered immortality in the heaven can only get there by leaving behind a fleshly body. 1 Cor 15v50.
They need to be 'caught up' in the clouds as Jesus was 'caught up'.
Jesus was 'caught up' after his resurrection.

Exactly. So there is also a concurrent removal of sin at the Rapture even though the scripture does not say so. It alludes to it by referring to receiving the robe of righteousness. Do you really think changing clothes will make a person righteous? However a robe is a good metaphor for something that we are given that cloaks us. Those who do not receive the robe are therefore still in their sin and have no part in the Physical Kingdom of God because they have no part in the spiritual Kingdom of God.

I think you are quite muddled on this. Only God is immortal. Everything created can be destroyed. Jesus when referring to everlasting life is referring to a spiritual state. Eternal life is different in that it means life without a definite end (70 years or so for those living now is a definite end).

Your statements here are also very muddled as well. First of all the passage does not have a reference to Heaven. This is your invention. That does not change the truth of how one may go to Heaven but this verse is not the one that references the subject. Jesus was caught up in the clouds bodily but quite obviusly is not there now (Or we would detect his physical presence there). He said He would return. When He returns He is bringing the New Jerusalem with Him that He has prepared for us and we will be caught up to it in the clouds. That has nothing to do with Heaven.

 

[Muffled]

Please provide scriptural proof of your position.

Please excuse me. I was responding to a person who knows his scriptures well. For what in particular do you need a scripture?

When I studied with the JW's i knew through the Holy Spirit that they were wrong but didn't know the scriptures. I had to dig for my answers and learned scripture in the process. It is good exercise but I will be happy to do the work for you. The only thing is that answers you find on your own will have more credibility than answers that I just provide for you.

 

[james2ko]

Please excuse me. I was responding to a person who knows his scriptures well. For what in particular do you need a scripture?

When I studied with the JW's i knew through the Holy Spirit that they were wrong but didn't know the scriptures. I had to dig for my answers and learned scripture in the process. It is good exercise but I will be happy to do the work for you. The only thing is that answers you find on your own will have more credibility than answers that I just provide for you.

There is overwhelming evidence in scripture to support a literal kingdom. Yet you claim that the Kingdom of God is spiritual. I was wondering what scripture(s) do you interpret to support this position?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I Cor 15:51 ¶ Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Sleep is used as a metaphor for death in this verse.
I trust that you understand that He was alive at the time and not dead?
I don't know what language you speak but I speak English and "then" means at that very moment.
I can see you are having a problem understanding this so I will try to explain it to you. The Kingdom of God is spiritual. As such there is nothing physical about it. However spirits inhabit bodies (that is what I am), so where the body goes the spirit goes with it and the Kingdom of God is present. If the body changes from the aging unto death state that now is the reality into a body that does not age unto death that will be the reality at rapture, then the kingdom of God is not changed by that one bit.

Yes, Jesus used 'sleep' as a metaphor for 'death' at John 11vs11-14.
The simple comparison of likening death to sleep is showing how easily God can resurrect the dead as easily as we can awaken someone from sleep.

So all of Jesus 'brothers' [Matt 25v40; 1Cor 15v50] would Not sleep in death.
In other words, they would die but not remain in death.
They would not remain in death's sleep but be resurrected right away.
'In the twinkle of an eye'.

If there is nothing physical or material about the kingdom, then how do you explain the kingdom being likened to a 'stone' that grows into a 'mountain'?
-Daniel 2vs34,35,45? How can a spiritual kingdom have the force to destroy earthly kingdoms of Daniel 2v44? What does Isaiah 9v7 say about God's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus? Was David's kingdom not literal?

How can Jesus have subjects or dominion from sea to sea....to ends of the 'earth' if the messianic kingdom is not literal ?
Psalm 72v8; Zech 9v10; Dan 7vs13,14

The living sheep-like people of Matthew [25v31,32] are the ones that can 'come out' of the great tribulation of Matt 24v21; Rev 7v14.
They 'come out' not go up. Just like we do not pray to go up to the kingdom, or to be taken away to the kingdom, but for God's kingdom 'to come'
and his will be done right here on earth as it is in heaven.
Since God's will for heaven is peace, then we are praying for peace to come to earth. Peace through God's Prince of Peace Jesus Christ who will usher in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

 

[Muffled]

There is overwhelming evidence in scripture to support a literal kingdom. Yet you claim that the Kingdom of God is spiritual. I was wondering what scripture(s) do you interpret to support this position?

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

I agree because a spirit can inhabit a body. The literal Kingdom exists today for that reason. However this world is shared with the kingdom of darkness. Only after the Rapture will there be a definitive Kingdom with borders where there is no kingdom of darkness present. The world is still shared with a kingdom of darkness outside of the borders of the Kingdom of Light for a thousand years, then the World will belong completely to the Kingdom of God.

 

[james2ko]

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

I agree because a spirit can inhabit a body. The literal Kingdom exists today for that reason. However this world is shared with the kingdom of darkness. Only after the Rapture will there be a definitive Kingdom with borders where there is no kingdom of darkness present. The world is still shared with a kingdom of darkness outside of the borders of the Kingdom of Light for a thousand years, then the World will belong completely to the Kingdom of God.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (NKJV)

If you read the verse carefully and in context with verse 6, the meaning will become clear. Verse 5 states that Christians enter God’s kingdom. It does not say that the kingdom enters into Christian's hearts or that the kingdom is here now.

Verse 6 is speaking of someone who is Spirit. Notice the phrase, “and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit,” We will not be "born of the Spirit" until the resurrection at the final trumpet (1 Cor 15:52). At this point in our lives, we are only begotten with the spirit (1 John 5:1; 1 Pet 1:3).

Now notice several other verses, which clarify John 3:5:

James 1:18: God begets His children with the word.

I Peter 1:22-23: God’s truth is obeyed through or with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:26: We are all washed by the water of the word.

In the ceremony of baptism, we are symbolically buried in a watery grave, and then emerge out of the water to walk in newness of life. In John 3:5, Christ referred to the necessity of being born both of water and of the Spirit. In the Bible, water is often used as a type of the Holy Spirit (John 7:38–39). Emerging from the waters of baptism is a symbolic birth—a type of our actual rebirth at the resurrection.

 

[AK4]

FYI, more REAL truth that exposes the rapture theory

We can learn something remarkable from the way that God uses the word "meet" in this Scripture.

"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." (I Thes. 4:17).

In this verse as in three others, God uses the Greek word apatesis which is translated "to meet." It is distinguished from a half dozen other Greek words which are variously translated, "meet,’ "meet with," "meeting," "meeting with," etc. The Greek word apatesis, is, however, used only three other times.
v

Now I am almost sure that I can hear faint protests in the distance from objecting rapturists. Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? That’s right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!
v

Let us be clear, that the "day of the Lord" is the time period of Christ’s return to this earth to punish Babylon the Great and to pour out His righteous indignation on her (and on those nations who follow and worship her) for her evil crimes of inhumanity and blasphemy.
v

"... even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the PRESENCE of the Son of Mankind" (Matt. 24:27).

Nothing is as bright as lightning--not even the sun. No one will know when our Lord comes, but when He appears, everyone on earth will know!

"... then all the tribes of the land shall grieve, and they shall see the Son of Mankind coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much GLORY"! (Mat. 24:30).

"Power," "Glory," and "LIGHTNING" have no fellowship with "darkness," "evil" and "gloom"!
v

Jesus said He was going to His Father IN HEAVEN to prepare a place for His apostles. Peter said that Christ,

"... regenerates us into a living expectation, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead, for the enjoyment of an allotment incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, KEPT IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU ..." (I Pet. 1:4-5).

And yet we know that Christ brings these treasures BACK TO EARTH.

Why do we think it is any different for the Gentiles? It is not different.

"... we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, IN THE HEAVENS." (II Cor. 5:1).

But are we unlike the Jews in that we really GO to heaven to receive our treasures? NO! Next verse: "For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is OUT of heaven ..."

There are so many Scriptures like this that contradict the rapture theory. Look at this one,

"The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s; but the EARTH hath He given to the children of men" (Psalm 115:6). One more, "... for we are your glorying (even as you also are ours) in THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS" (II Cor. 1:14).

Not in the "rapture," but in "the day of our Lord."
v

When Christ returns to set up His kingdom on earth, He brings the place of authority or rulership that He has prepared for the apostles with Him so that "... where I am, YOU ALSO MAY BE" (John 14:3). During Christ’s reign on earth His apostles will be WITH THE LORD.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't know what language you speak but I speak English and "then" means at that very moment.

Originally the Bible was written mostly in Hebrew and Greek.

In Scripture 'then' can mean the next thing to happen in order of events.
So a long range of time can occur between then and now.

For example: the word 'immediately' appears at Matthew 24v29.
There 'immediate' is not at that very moment in time but bridges a long time period before the next [in order] event is to occur or happen.