The Rapture

[URAVIP2ME]

.

Please accept my apology to you.

 

[Judge_not]

Reward on earth yes, present day earth. But what about the world [earth] to come?...

So besides a heavenly reward for those of Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10, there is also an earthly reward for humble meek ones to inherit earth forever starting during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.....

-Matt 5v5; Psalm 37 vs11,29; Matthew 25vs32,46.

Hiya Vipee,
Thank you for making my point. That is how I understand the parable. Maybe I spoke too plainly
~miss teary:candle:

 

[Judge_not]

There is indication that Paul may have had a serious eye illness (Gal 4:13,15), which would account for a stenographer,
and when he did put pen to "paper" his writ was large (Gal 6:11).

But I don't see any indication in the NT that Paul was illiterate.
He was educated (Ac 22:3), spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic (Ac 22:2), was a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee (Ac 23:6).

Do you suggest illiteracy simply because of his stenographer, or do you see other indications in the NT that he may have been illiterate?

Hiya!!!
Paul diddn't have the internet so he couldn't easily cut and paste scripture This argument is amusing to me... I haven't seen anyone mention Mary Magdalene in all this, she was taken out of the whole thing wasn't she? Paul diddn't seem to like her much... pity. I see alot of people trying to prove who's smarter than who and who has read more apocryphal text or more "ancient" teachings... but who was it who said, "do not pray as the heathens do, for they enjoy in thier MUCH TALKING" If the KJV was good enough for my granny, it's good enough for me.
~All Due respect
Miss Teary, Mary Magdalene's Grandaugter, not the one who stayed at the Cross, but the one who was born in Hazard, KY. 1913:candle:

 

[Muffled]

God is not attempting to save all of mankind in this age. That's the primary reason Jesus spoke to the general public in parables.

Mat 13:10-11 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

Mar 4:11-12 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
​

I explained how the term "within you" taken from Luke 17:21 is a mistranslation in post# 287 point 2.

This sounds like a calvinist concept. I disagree. I believe that the Love of God impels Him to always seek and save all of the lost.

I disagree. I believe parables are word pictures to help people to understand more clearly.

Whatever. Where Jesus is the Kingdom is. I would grant that the kingdom wasn't within the Pharisees because Jesus wasn't within them. However Jesus is within me.

 

[Muffled]

I see NH-USA, I think, Nashua...

"I like it better than being crispy crittered." That's not a good morality, that's Pascal's wager... I think it is dangerous. Just watched Sam Harris tell it - people who believe in a Rapture have no impetuous to create a better world.

Fate has brought me to the state capitol.

On the contrary, the watchword is to keep on working until He comes. However we might have a different idea of what a better world is.

 

[james2ko]

This sounds like a calvinist concept. I disagree. I believe that the Love of God impels Him to always seek and save all of the lost.

And He will, but He is not trying to save all in this age:

2Co 4:3-4 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​

If God is trying to save the world, in this age, why would He allow satan free reign to do this? Remember, satan can do nothing unless permitted by God (Job 1:12; 2:6)

I disagree. I believe parables are word pictures to help people to understand more clearly.

Really? The verses above state the diametric opposite. This was Jesus' response when the disciples asked Him why He speaks to the general public in parables:

Mar 4:12 'SEEING THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND HEARING THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND; LEST THEY SHOULD TURN, AND THEIR SINS BE FORGIVEN THEM.' "

Mat 13:14-16 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND, AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE; 15 FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE GROWN DULL. THEIR EARS ARE HARD OF HEARING, AND THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED, LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEARTS AND TURN, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM.'

Whatever. Where Jesus is the Kingdom is. I would grant that the kingdom wasn't within the Pharisees because Jesus wasn't within them. However Jesus is within me.

That's what my teenage daughter would say when her arguments against why she couldn't do certain things were lovingly refuted

 

[Muffled]

And He will, but He is not trying to save all in this age:

2Co 4:3-4 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
​

If God is trying to save the world, in this age, why would He allow satan free reign to do this? Remember, satan can do nothing unless permitted by God (Job 1:12; 2:6)

Really? The verses above state the diametric opposite. This was Jesus' response when the disciples asked Him why He speaks to the general public in parables:

Mar 4:12 'SEEING THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND HEARING THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND; LEST THEY SHOULD TURN, AND THEIR SINS BE FORGIVEN THEM.' "

Mat 13:14-16 "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND, AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE; 15 FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE GROWN DULL. THEIR EARS ARE HARD OF HEARING, AND THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED, LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEARTS AND TURN, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM.'

That's what my teenage daughter would say when her arguments against why she couldn't do certain things were lovingly refuted

I don't know where you get this. The following verse doesn't support it.

Obviously you are under a misapprehension. The devil is in this world but I am saved anyway.

You will have to explain why you see it that way. I do not see it that way at all.

That isn't a bad thing. She will obey even if she disagrees. I meant something different. I meant that it is a moot point ie that it doesn't matter what the translation is, the meaning is the same.

 

[james2ko]

I don't know where you get this. The following verse doesn't support it.

I believe by combining simple logic with scripture, this premise can be supported. First off, if our Omnipotent God was in some titanic battle with satan over the saving of souls, He is losing miserably. The book of Job and other verses plainly refute this premise. God is in complete control of and not in a battle with satan and his demons ((Job 1:12; 2:6;1Ki 22:20-22).

Scripture tells us satan is the ruler of this world [age] (Jn 12:31; 14:30; 16:11). He has most of humanity deceived (Rev 12:9) and under his influence (1Jn 5:19). With this knowledge, one could easily postulate God is voluntarily allowing this to fulfill His sovereign plan. Based on this premise, we can logically conclude God's plan does not include the saving of all mankind in satan's world.

Obviously you are under a misapprehension. The devil is in this world but I am saved anyway.

No one is saved yet. Christians will finally attain salvation at the second coming or when we die, only if we endure and overcome the trials of life. (Mat 24:13. Mat 10:22; Heb 3:14; Rev 2:10)

You will have to explain why you see it that way. I do not see it that way at all.

I don't blame you. I saw these verses true meaning only after I removed my denominational glasses and put aside everything I was taught about salvation and unless you are willing to do the same, I'm afraid its true meaning will remain hidden.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Fate has brought me to the state capitol.

On the contrary, the watchword is to keep on working until He comes. However we might have a different idea of what a better world is.

Concord's sweet. Leafy, from what I remember... and I bet it ain't gonna be 94 degrees today like this place... yikes.

Keep on working is a good watchword.

 

[Muffled]

Concord's sweet. Leafy, from what I remember... and I bet it ain't gonna be 94 degrees today like this place... yikes.

Keep on working is a good watchword.

When I moved back to New England from Nebraska, I had claustrophobia at first because of all the trees surrounding me. We will be in the hot 50's today and the sun will actually be visible. At least most of the snow is gone, lol.

 

[Muffled]

I believe by combining simple logic with scripture, this premise can be supported. First off, if our Omnipotent God was in some titanic battle with satan over the saving of souls, He is losing miserably. The book of Job and other verses plainly refute this premise. God is in complete control of and not in a battle with satan and his demons ((Job 1:12; 2:6;1Ki 22:20-22).

Scripture tells us satan is the ruler of this world [age] (Jn 12:31; 14:30; 16:11). He has most of humanity deceived (Rev 12:9) and under his influence (1Jn 5:19). With this knowledge, one could easily postulate God is voluntarily allowing this to fulfill His sovereign plan. Based on this premise, we can logically conclude God's plan does not include the saving of all mankind in satan's world.

No one is saved yet. Christians will finally attain salvation at the second coming or when we die, only if we endure and overcome the trials of life. (Mat 24:13. Mat 10:22; Heb 3:14; Rev 2:10)

I don't blame you. I saw these verses true meaning only after I removed my denominational glasses and put aside everything I was taught about salvation and unless you are willing to do the same, I'm afraid its true meaning will remain hidden.

Appearances are deceiving. At least the perception allows for the concept that God is not automatically saving everyone.

Your conclusion about the Book of Job doesn't hold water. Satan thought that he could influence Job's decisions and thinking. God never said that He controlled Job's thinking only that Job was righteous.

Just because God's plan includes a contest does not guarantee that God's plan includes losing the contest or that God won't even try to win.

Mat 24:13 and Mat 10:22 don't say that we will be saved at the end. They say we should endure until the end. For the saved that means not falling away into apostasy. The other two verses fall into the same category.

This is a pretty lame excuse for not providing evidence. I put away my denominational glasses a long time ago also but now I see through the eyes of Jesus.

 

[dan p]

This doctrinal concept is probably misconstrued as the Doctrine of the Trinity. However there is scripture to support this where there isn't any for the DOTT.

This is the main supporting scripture: I Thes. 4:13 ¶ But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 6 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I also include:
Mat 22:1 ¶ And Jesus answered and spake again in parables unto them, saying,
2 The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son,
3 and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the marriage feast: and they would not come.
4 Again he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them that are bidden, Behold, I have made ready my dinner; my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come to the marriage feast.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise;
6 and the rest laid hold on his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them.
7 But the king was wroth; and he sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they that were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore unto the partings of the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage feast.
10 And those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was filled with guests.
11 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding–garment:
12 and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding–garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

I also include the harvest of wheat (Righteous people) in the Rapture coming before the harvest of tares (un-righteous people) that comes with fire:

Rev 14:15 And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 Another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.

Hi Muffled and as A E , HAS SAID " WHAT " .

#1 , There is no such word in the Greek as the Rapture !

#2 , The Greek word is APOSTASIA which means " a Departure " in 2 Thess 2:3 !

#3 , Another word for RAPTURE/DEPARTURE is in Gal 1:4 ! And I have just touched the subject . And when you learn Pauline Dispendationalism , just maybe , you may be more Stable and Learned and learn what context means as 2 Peter 3:15 - 16 says about those who are not Pauline are Unlearned , and Unstable and Twist the scripture to there own destruction .

#4 , Your use of Matt 24 and Rev 14 is talking about the Tribulation , should be a SHOCK , for your mis-use of Context .

#5 , And why attack the Trinity with no supporting verses , like 1 John 5:6 - 8 , and what you have written is all Illusionary , dan p

 

[james2ko]

Appearances are deceiving. At least the perception allows for the concept that God is not automatically saving everyone.

1. If I understand the statement correctly, are you saying God is merely giving off the impression he is not attempting to save everyone??

Your conclusion about the Book of Job doesn't hold water. Satan thought that he could influence Job's decisions and thinking. God never said that He controlled Job's thinking only that Job was righteous.

2. Never said or implied God controlled Job's thinking: Here it is again:

"The book of Job and other verses plainly refute this premise. God is in complete control of and not in a battle with satan and his demons (Job 1:12; 2:6;1Ki 22:20-22)."​

The statement clearly implies God is in control of satan and his demons--- not Job's thoughts. I'm sure the misunderstanding was inadvertent. You do not strike me as the type to twist statements to justify yourself.

Just because God's plan includes a contest does not guarantee that God's plan includes losing the contest or that God won't even try to win.

3. I just proved to you from the scriptures in point #2 there is no contest. In the book of Job, God gave satan restrictions and he obeyed. How can you compete with someone who dictates what you can or cannot do? It's like saying my supervisor and I are competing for customers in the same territory but I cannot acquire one unless he authorizes it. Grossly illogical, wouldn't you agree?

Mat 24:13 and Mat 10:22 don't say that we will be saved at the end. They say we should endure until the end. For the saved that means not falling away into apostasy. The other two verses fall into the same category.

4. Not so sure about that Muffled. Let's take another look: "But the one who endures to the end will be saved." According to the original Greek, the phrase "will or shall be saved" is used as a verb in the future passive indicative tense indicating a future condition--not past or present! The same Greek word is used in Mat 10:22.. In addition, "saved" is used as a verb in both verses. Yet you twist the phrase to imply the word "saved" as being the subject. I take back the last sentence in reply #2.

This is a pretty lame excuse for not providing evidence. I put away my denominational glasses a long time ago also but now I see through the eyes of Jesus.

5. Evidence? I've given you verses, analogies, and tense interpretation. The only thing left to do is to put aside pride and everything you've learned about salvation and pray for understanding.

 

[jtartar]

I haven't time just now to study fully that which you have written here, but you are correct in stateing that the Bible tells us that God did not create the earth for nothing, but created it to be inhabited.

After the fire from heaven has incinerated all physical life forms on this planet, and when, at the sound of the last trumpet, the elect and chosen will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, from bodies of corruptible matter, into glorious bodies of incorruptible light, they will be caught up to heaven to be with their brother Jesus, who was the first of many brothers to be raised from the dead past of "The Son Of Man" to whom all the sins of mankind has been ascribed.

Then, when the earth is once more able to support physical life forms, It is their Lord Jesus, who will renew the earth with the seeds and genetic material that had been prepared through the thousand years of peace, and when the system that is able to support the human race has been put in Place, it is He who will say to his brothers, "And now let us make man in our image and likeness."

And the new light species that had evolved from the body of mankind, "The Son Of Man," which is the new temple of God that replaces his old earthly tabernacle, (The body of Mankind, for the kingdom of God is within you) as the Most High in the creation, in them, God will dwell on earth among a new and more humble race of Mankind.

S-word,
Some of what you say is truth, but you must understand what the WHOLE Bible says about things to get the full understanding. The Bible, both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures are in complete harmony, so if something does not fit with you believe, or what you have been taught, you must search the scriptures to make everything harmonious.
First, you must realize that the Kingdom of God is a GOVERNMENT, that is going to rule over mankind, 1Cor 15:50, says that flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom. 1Pet 3:18-20, explains that Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. Verse 19 tells us that in the spiritual state Jesus went and preached to the wicked spirits in prison. Jesus was resurrected a mighty spirit person, even higher than he was before coming to earth, Phil 2:9. 2Cor 5:16 says that we shall see Jesus in the flesh no more. Remember, Jesus is sitting beside The Almighty God in heaven, and a flesh and blood person cannot live in heaven, Eph 1:20-23. Notice Col 3:1-4, tells us that Jesus is in heaven, and that some of his followers will be with him there. John 14:1-3 says that his brothers will be with him in heaven. So also John 17:24.
It is extremely important to understand that God's purpose is to have a Little Flock of Jesus brothers in haeven with him, Luke 12:32. These are the ones of the UPWARD calling, Phil 3:14, the Heavenly calling, Heb 3:1.
In several places Jesus told his disciples that they would be ruling over the twelve tribes, Luke 22:29,30. Notice Jesus said in the Kingdom. Remember only spirit persons can be in the Heavenly Kingdom, 1Cor 15:50. Verses 51-54 tells us that these will be granted IMMORTALITY, which is why Rev 2:11 says that they cannot be harmed by the SECOND DEATH, and Rev 20:6 says that the Second death has no authority over them.
Now, immortality means that these ones CANNOT die!!! Now, notice what John 5:28,29 says about ones resurrected there. Some will gain everlasting life, and some will get JUDGEMENT, meaning death. These are two groups, a heavenly group, who gets immortality, the other group are on earth and can get either life or death, depending on their actions.
The ones going to heaven will be Kings and Priests over the earth, Rev 20:4-6.
Look at Rom 8:17, which says that these, who are brothers of Jesus are to be CO-Rulers with him. Rom 6:4,5 tells that the ones going to heaven will get the same resurrection as Jesus got.
There are several terms that are used to describe the ones going to heaven; BORN AGAIN, NEW BIRTH, A NEW CREATION, CHILDREN of GOD, John 3:3-8, 1Pet 1:3,4,23, 2Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15,16, 1John 3:1,2.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that some will not go to heaven, to be Kings and Priests, with Jesus. This will be a relatively small group, Rev 7:4, 14:-5, when compared with the Great Crowd, which no man can number, that will go through the Great Tribulation, Rev 7:14, 7:9.
Here is the full explanation of God's purpose, He will have a group in heaven, ruling ove those on earth, both the ones who go through the Great Tribulation and those who will be resurrected.
Consider again God's purpose, Isa 45:18, says that God did not create the earth for nothing, but He formed it even to be inhabited. When God states a purpose it will certainly come true, Isas 55:11. Consider also Ps 37:29 that says that the righteous will live forever on the earth, Rev 21:3,4.
Thius was God's original purpose, and it has not changed, Gen 1:26-28. Man was not created to die. John 3:16, which has been called the Gospel in Miniature, actually says this, succinctly.

 

[Thief]

S-word,
Some of what you say is truth, but you must understand what the WHOLE Bible says about things to get the full understanding. The Bible, both the Hebrew and the Greek Scriptures are in complete harmony, so if something does not fit with you believe, or what you have been taught, you must search the scriptures to make everything harmonious.
First, you must realize that the Kingdom of God is a GOVERNMENT, that is going to rule over mankind, 1Cor 15:50, says that flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom. 1Pet 3:18-20, explains that Jesus was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. Verse 19 tells us that in the spiritual state Jesus went and preached to the wicked spirits in prison. Jesus was resurrected a mighty spirit person, even higher than he was before coming to earth, Phil 2:9. 2Cor 5:16 says that we shall see Jesus in the flesh no more. Remember, Jesus is sitting beside The Almighty God in heaven, and a flesh and blood person cannot live in heaven, Eph 1:20-23. Notice Col 3:1-4, tells us that Jesus is in heaven, and that some of his followers will be with him there. John 14:1-3 says that his brothers will be with him in heaven. So also John 17:24.
It is extremely important to understand that God's purpose is to have a Little Flock of Jesus brothers in haeven with him, Luke 12:32. These are the ones of the UPWARD calling, Phil 3:14, the Heavenly calling, Heb 3:1.
In several places Jesus told his disciples that they would be ruling over the twelve tribes, Luke 22:29,30. Notice Jesus said in the Kingdom. Remember only spirit persons can be in the Heavenly Kingdom, 1Cor 15:50. Verses 51-54 tells us that these will be granted IMMORTALITY, which is why Rev 2:11 says that they cannot be harmed by the SECOND DEATH, and Rev 20:6 says that the Second death has no authority over them.
Now, immortality means that these ones CANNOT die!!! Now, notice what John 5:28,29 says about ones resurrected there. Some will gain everlasting life, and some will get JUDGEMENT, meaning death. These are two groups, a heavenly group, who gets immortality, the other group are on earth and can get either life or death, depending on their actions.
The ones going to heaven will be Kings and Priests over the earth, Rev 20:4-6.
Look at Rom 8:17, which says that these, who are brothers of Jesus are to be CO-Rulers with him. Rom 6:4,5 tells that the ones going to heaven will get the same resurrection as Jesus got.
There are several terms that are used to describe the ones going to heaven; BORN AGAIN, NEW BIRTH, A NEW CREATION, CHILDREN of GOD, John 3:3-8, 1Pet 1:3,4,23, 2Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15,16, 1John 3:1,2.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that some will not go to heaven, to be Kings and Priests, with Jesus. This will be a relatively small group, Rev 7:4, 14:-5, when compared with the Great Crowd, which no man can number, that will go through the Great Tribulation, Rev 7:14, 7:9.
Here is the full explanation of God's purpose, He will have a group in heaven, ruling ove those on earth, both the ones who go through the Great Tribulation and those who will be resurrected.
Consider again God's purpose, Isa 45:18, says that God did not create the earth for nothing, but He formed it even to be inhabited. When God states a purpose it will certainly come true, Isas 55:11. Consider also Ps 37:29 that says that the righteous will live forever on the earth, Rev 21:3,4.
Thius was God's original purpose, and it has not changed, Gen 1:26-28. Man was not created to die. John 3:16, which has been called the Gospel in Miniature, actually says this, succinctly.

And Jesus was a Jew.

Prepared for a Jewish king?....upon a Jewish throne?

Know the language and the scheme of things?....really?

Why not be content?
He said of Himself ...brother and fellow servant.
No crown on His head....and He was resistant to that idea.

But then again....
Would He be willing to lay hand on your shoulder?....and say
My fellow servant....
My brother....

 

[Muffled]

Hi Muffled and as A E , HAS SAID " WHAT " .

#1 , There is no such word in the Greek as the Rapture !

#2 , The Greek word is APOSTASIA which means " a Departure " in 2 Thess 2:3 !

#3 , Another word for RAPTURE/DEPARTURE is in Gal 1:4 ! And I have just touched the subject . And when you learn Pauline Dispendationalism , just maybe , you may be more Stable and Learned and learn what context means as 2 Peter 3:15 - 16 says about those who are not Pauline are Unlearned , and Unstable and Twist the scripture to there own destruction .

#4 , Your use of Matt 24 and Rev 14 is talking about the Tribulation , should be a SHOCK , for your mis-use of Context .

#5 , And why attack the Trinity with no supporting verses , like 1 John 5:6 - 8 , and what you have written is all Illusionary , dan p

1. Duh! That is why it is called a translation. "Rapture" is a translation of the Latin word "rapiemur" which is found in a more definitive translation (defining rapture) in I TH 4:17 as "caught up." The Greek word is Harpazo. If you ask me The Rapture sounds better than "The Catching Up" or "The Harpzure."

2. You aren't even on the right verse or subject.

3. I can't imagine to what you are referring.

4. This is debatable. Just making assertions won't get you very far. Prove it.

5. I am not attacking the Trinity which has supporting scripture but the Doctrine of the Trinity which does not have supporting scripture, only to point out that the Doctrine of the Rapture has more supporting scripture than the Doctrine of the Trinity. I will admit to a misconception on this however because both doctrines have elements that are scripturally viable and elements that are not.

 

[Muffled]

S-word,
Jesus was resurrected a mighty spirit person, even higher than he was before coming to earth, Phil 2:9. 2Cor 5:16 says that we shall see Jesus in the flesh no more. Remember, Jesus is sitting beside The Almighty God in heaven, and a flesh and blood person cannot live in heaven, Eph 1:20-23. Notice Col 3:1-4, tells us that Jesus is in heaven, and that some of his followers will be with him there. John 14:1-3 says that his brothers will be with him in heaven. So also John 17:24.

You left out the word "now". I can say that I no longer go to the theatre and that is true for now but some time in the future I could decide to go back to the theatre. So even though we don't see Jesus in the flesh now there is no preclusion in this verse from seeing Him in the future in the flesh.

You are in error on two counts: 1. God does not sit because he is not material, therefore the sitting by both is clearly representational and not a direct reflection on whether Jesus is in the flesh or not 2. Normally there is nothing in Heaven of a material nature but that does not mean that it can't happen.

Again this is purely representational and does not guarantee that Jesus in His body is in the same place.

I don't find that in this passage.

This is a prayer not a staement of fact. And it does not indicate when people should be with Jesus. It may well be a desire for people to be present with Him in the Kingdom of God.

This is a statement that he is building the New Jerusalem. Obviously people go there at the time of the Rapture.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Resurrection not Rapture.

1st Thess 4v17 is in connection to resurrection because as 1st Cor 15v50 says that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.

Heavenly New Jerusalem is for Jesus 'brothers' resurrected to rule with Christ during his millennial reign over earth. Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10

Jesus was 'caught up into the clouds' at his ascent to heaven.
So Jesus 'brothers' [Matt 25v40] 'caught up in the clouds' would mean not sleeping in death [1st Thess 4vs13,14] or not spending any amount of time in death.
Whereas the rest of the dead wait until the 'last day' [John 11v24; Acts 24v15; 2v34 A]
or Jesus 'millennial-long day' of reigning over earth.
They will have an immediate resurrection to heaven.

 

[Muffled]

Resurrection not Rapture.

1st Thess 4v17 is in connection to resurrection because as 1st Cor 15v50 says that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.

Heavenly New Jerusalem is for Jesus 'brothers' resurrected to rule with Christ during his millennial reign over earth. Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10

Jesus was 'caught up into the clouds' at his ascent to heaven.
So Jesus 'brothers' [Matt 25v40] 'caught up in the clouds' would mean not sleeping in death [1st Thess 4vs13,14] or not spending any amount of time in death.
Whereas the rest of the dead wait until the 'last day' [John 11v24; Acts 24v15; 2v34 A]
or Jesus 'millennial-long day' of reigning over earth.
They will have an immediate resurrection to heaven.

You are in error because your reasoning is false. Flesh and blood accompany the Kingdom of God. The spirit that does inherit the Kingdom of God is joined to a living person and I Th 4:17 definitely refers to living persons: "we that are alive."
However simply inhabiting a body does not guarantee a person that he is in the Kingdom of God because it is necessary for his spirit to be in the Kingdom.

There is nothing about "brothers" in those scriptures. You are jumping to conclusions. There is also nothing about the New Jerusalem in those scriptures either. Even though people are mentioned as resurrected, it is not a preclusion against those who are raptured.

Sleeping in death was something Jews did because that is what they believed. I didn't after my last life. I went to Heaven. I did not sleep there. Perhaps it is due to the fact that Christianity eliminated the concept of sleep in death. A person caught up in the clouds as Jesus was is still alive. Living people don't spend any time in death.

You are in error in this also. The millenial resurrection (second) consists of those who were left living on the earth after the conflagration who were not in the Kingdom of God and died in those thousand years.

For those resurrected after the Millenium, the destination will be the Kingdom of God on earth not Heaven or heaven. People are never resurrected to Heaven because no flesh and blood is there.

 

[barney1956]

I am saying that the doctrine of the Rapture has Biblical roots although as most doctrines go it is sometimes misconstrued. I offered the Bible verses so that you can see that it has Biblical roots. Why are you denying what is right in front of your eyes?

The rapture does not have biblical roots.The scriptures that people use to try and show that it's biblical take those scriptures out of context