The Rapture

[Muffled]

As to your first post, all the verses you had shown fit in with a resurrection at Christ's return, which is also the last day.

The parable of the wheat and tares actually speaks against all the rapture theories.

A few verses later Jesus interprets the parable for his disciples and us.

Notice that this harvest is the end of the world, the last day, and that the gathering of both the wicked and righteous occur on the same day. If any thing the harvest of the tares is before that of the wheat![/quote]

You read a lot into scripture. The verse says "until the harvest." There is no reference to one day

That appears to be correct however it does not say the harvest immediately involves burning. It says "bind them in bundles." This fits in with the separation of sheep and goats.

 

[Muffled]

Are there any scriptures that actually say when 1Cor.15 takes place we go off to heaven?

Yes.

I Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It does not seem incomaptible to me that "the last trump" referred to would be the one from Thess. since both are about resurection. Paul even makes the same dichotomy between the dead and the living.

 

[Muffled]

I am Dispensational Prewrathist. Simply put, I believe that Israel and the Church are two separate entities, that Jesus will Rapture His Church at the Second coming after the wrath of Satan is cut short and before the wrath of God begins, and that the destination of the Raptured elect is in heaven.

That isn't what scripture says:

I Th 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Muffled]

No Rapture as some believe since the 1850s because of the wild imagination of an itinerant Scottish preacher by the name of John Darby.
Catholics believe the Bible as found in 1 Thess. 4: 16-17 - "The dead in Christ will rise first; then we whoare alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord . '
It is true that the word " rapiemur " does appear in Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians ,but it in no ways means as Darby promoted, but it caught like wildfire amongst the Evangelical/ Fundamentalists . It does mean 'caught up " or 'rasied up ' but nothing like the invention of John Darby.

Darby was born in Ireland and was Irish/English. He graduated from college in Ireland and later became active in the Anglican Church. The Scottish preacher was named Irving and one of his disciples had a vision of the Rapture that could be considered imaginiative.

The article that I read is that current Catholic thinking ignores the concept of meeting in the air as being caught up. How that can be justified evades me.

 

[Falcon]

Muffled, thank you for correcting me on John Darby, one thing that I do question and that is, everything that I read about what Catholics believe about the 'rapture " pertains solely to 1 Thess .4: 16-17 including 'to meet the Lord in the air ," where did you read that the Church no longer believes this , or , am I reading wrong that which you wrote ?

 

[javajo]

I believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. It is sometimes referred to as "the blessed hope" of every believer. We should be looking for Jesus Christ, from Titus 2:

11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Some scholars call "that blessed hope" the return of Christ in the air for the church the Rapture, and the "glorious appearing", the 2nd Coming of Christ to the actual earth at the end of the Tribulation. A 2-phased 2nd Coming. There is also a reward, a crown of righteousness for all who "love his appearing", that are anticipating his return, according to 2 Timothy 4:8

 

[Falcon]

How many more times does the Bible tell us that Jesus will be coming back to us at the end of times ?

 

[javajo]

How many more times does the Bible tell us that Jesus will be coming back to us at the end of times ?

1,389,763 times. JK, but a bunch.

 

[Falcon]

javajo, are you on holiday from a sanitarium, or are you upset on hearing the many truths from God's One earthly Church ?

 

[javajo]

javajo, are you on holiday from a sanitarium, or are you upset on hearing the many truths from God's One earthly Church ?

Yes, I finally escaped! No, I'm not upset. You asked, "How many more times does the Bible tell us that Jesus will be coming back to us at the end of times ?" I just said a bunch. I thought I was being in agreement with you. The Bible gives us this wonderful promise over and over that Jesus is coming again. It is a promise that all Christians can find great joy, comfort and hope in. I think all who have trusted Christ are God's one earthly church. Reminds me of the lady who told the Pastor to discipline the children for chewing gum in the tabernacle. He said, lady, they ARE the tabernacle.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

"the wrath of God"

God is Love. What "wrath" can Love possibly have?

Well, to answer your question, I believe that God will execute His just wrath against the the antichrist and his people who persecute the true believers in Jesus. God takes those things personally.

 

[Firstborner]

You read a lot into scripture. The verse says "until the harvest." There is no reference to one day

That appears to be correct however it does not say the harvest immediately involves burning. It says "bind them in bundles." This fits in with the separation of sheep and goats.

Jesus equated the harvest with the end of the world. In his other discourses he refers to the end of the world with the last day. You seem to be reading into the parable too much. It says "bind them into bundles to be burned"...the point is that in the harvest the wicked are gathered first, that contradicts all the rapture theories.

Yes.

I Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How is that a yes to the question? Where is heaven mentioned in this passage?

Well, to answer your question, I believe that God will execute His just wrath against the the antichrist and his people who persecute the true believers in Jesus. God takes those things personally.

Amen to that...still not buying into your pre-wrathist stance though.

 

[WALL]

Yes.

I Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It does not seem incomaptible to me that "the last trump" referred to would be the one from Thess. since both are about resurection. Paul even makes the same dichotomy between the dead and the living.

Hey Muffled
I ask if there was anywhere found in scripture that we are off to heaven when the 1Cor15 event occurs. I dont see anywhere in that scripture that says we are going to heaven.

 

[Awoon]

Well, to answer your question, I believe that God will execute His just wrath against the the antichrist and his people who persecute the true believers in Jesus. God takes those things personally.

But God is Love and can only be Loving.:yes:

 

[javajo]

in the harvest the wicked are gathered first, that contradicts all the rapture theories.

That harvest is much later on. The Rapture ends the Church Age. Next is the 7 yr. Tribulation, the Time of Jacob's Trouble, or 70th Week of Daniel where God is dealing with Israel. During this time many are saved (and martyred). Then there is the 1,000 yr. Reign of Christ, then Satan is loosed again, deceives people again and is beaten yet again. Then the harvest you speak of occurs and the 2nd Ressurection of unbelievers and the Great White Throne Judgement. Then eternity.

Where is heaven mentioned in this passage?

It is not mentioned, however it says we meet the Lord in the air and will be forever with the Lord. Where is the Lord? He is seated at the Right hand of the Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be his name. He said in John 14, In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (v. 2-3) So we see, we will be with Jesus in Heaven for a time shortly before and during the Tribulation, afterwhich he comes with tens of thousand of his saints and defeats the Antichrist, False Prophet and Satan and begins his Millenial Reign.

 

[Falcon]

Jesus only comes back "one " more time, not as some who think ,that Jesus will reappear a couple of extra times, Bible tells us only "one " time.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, to answer your question, I believe that God will execute His just wrath against the the antichrist and his people who persecute the true believers in Jesus. God takes those things personally.

Why say the antichrist as if he is one person?

1st John 2 vs18,21;4v3; 2nd John verse 7 all mention antichrist as anyone against Christ. Not a specific person.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Jesus equated the harvest with the end of the world. In his other discourses he refers to the end of the world with the last day. You seem to be reading into the parable too much. It says "bind them into bundles to be burned"...the point is that in the harvest the wicked are gathered first, that contradicts all the rapture theories.



How is that a yes to the question? Where is heaven mentioned in this passage?



Amen to that...still not buying into your pre-wrathist stance though.

That is okay. I would rather have you research it.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That isn't what scripture says:

I Th 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When was Jesus caught up in the clouds [Acts 1v9]
Wasn't it after he was resurrected at the time he then ascended to heaven?

1st Thess 4 vs 13-16 talks of Jesus 'brothers' asleep in the grave being resurrected first or having an earlier resurrection. -Rev 20v6.
Jesus 'brothers' are the 'we' addressed in verse 17.

The 'then' or the 'afterwards' of verse 17 by saying in the clouds would mean in the same way that Jesus was resurrected first before disappearing in the cloud.

Isn't 1st Cor. 15v50 clear that flesh and blood [physical] can Not inherit the kingdom of God. So, like the rest of Jesus 'brothers' [Matt 25v40] those of 1st Thess 4v17 must also die first to inherit the heavenly kingdom of God.

It's the living humble 'sheep' of Matthew [25vs31,32] that have the opportunity to gain everlasting life on earth without ever having to die at the time of Jesus glory. Whereas, Jesus 'brothers' of verse 40 go to a heavenly reward.
The sheep remain as part of the earthly subjects of Psalm 72v8.

None that lived between Genesis and Malachi were offered heaven.
Jesus said none of them ascended to heaven. -John 3v13; Acts 2v34.

 

[Awoon]

Well, to answer your question, I believe that God will execute His just wrath against the the antichrist and his people who persecute the true believers in Jesus. God takes those things personally.

Loves wrath can only be LOVING.