So let me get this straight: You use the Xtian scripture to claim him Messiah yet you discount the lineage that you use to claim his title? You can't have it both ways. Either the lineage matters or it doesn't.
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The real Messiah!!!
- Thread starter David69
- Start date
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
I'm certain the mashiach must be Jewish... and THAT passes through the female.
However, identification with a particular tribal heritage goes strictly from father to son. Read through the book of Numbers, I'm sure you'll find something.
It's still around. One notably famous/recent person who was from David and Solomon's messianic heritage is Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
There are plenty of potential candidates running around today.
I don't know, and I don't care.
It's not about sexism. Jacob had 12 sons, and the Mashiach will come from the tribe of Judah. Tribal identification happens from father to son. It's not a slight against women... it just happens that way.
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your excellent and informed answers
A few comments on the above quotes:
1- Pharaoh's magicians did not perform miracles. What they did was magic. And there is a big difference between a miracle and between magic
Moses, peace be upon him, performed a miracle, by God's permission, when he and his followers reached the sea followed by Pharaoh and his soldiers. God commanded water to change its physical laws so the Israelites could get safe to the other side. That was a miracle, something real taking place opposing the natural physical laws. As for magic, it's an illusion, it's not real.
What Jesus, peace be upon him, performed by God's permission, were miracles. Speaking in the cradle a few hours after being born to deffend his mother and announce who he was, is not magic: it's a clear miracle. So were all the other miracles he performed, which are recorded in the Qur'an
2- The Jews at the time who followed him were following God's Messenger. Whether they knew him as Messiah or not was not the point. The point is Jesus was God's Prophet and Messenger, and believers since the time of Noah are commanded to follow the latest Prophet sent by God, in this case Jesus, peace be upon him
I'm speaking from a Muslim perspective, as we believe that the message of Jesus supercedes that of Moses, and that the final revelation from God to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, supercedes all previous Divine Scriptures ...
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. For some reason I thought the Egyptian magicians were an example of a particular passage I have in mind, and apparently I was wrong about that. The passage of scripture will follow shortly.
Deuteronomy 13:1-4
The entire word that I command you, that you shall observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it.
If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying, "Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!" - do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for the Lord, your God, is testing you to know whether you love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
A bit from a footnote from the text I refer to:
Anyone, even someone who had been acknowledged as a prophet, is automatically shown to be false if he claims to have been sent by God to advocate any form of idolatry. The same applies if he claims that any precept of the Torah should be abrogated permanently. As codified in Maimonides' Thirteen Principles, it is a principle of our faith that none of the Torah can be abrogated, no matter how many miracles a prophet may perform. Our faith is not based on miracles and is impervious to them.
Speaking from a Jewish perspective, nothing supercedes Moses' message, and any prophet that either tries to lead people to idolatry or to abrogate God's law as communicated to the children of Israel by Moses is indeed a false prophet.
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
This is what God says in The Qur'an:
And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allāh took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him."
[Allāh] said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?"
They said, "We have acknowledged it."
He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses." (3:81)
And [recall, O People of the Scripture], when Allāh took the covenant of the prophets, [saying], "Whatever I give you of the Scripture and wisdom and then there comes to you a messenger confirming what is with you, you [must] believe in him and support him."
[Allāh] said, "Have you acknowledged and taken upon that My commitment?"
They said, "We have acknowledged it."
He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses." (3:81)
David69
Angel Of The North
No you didnt get it straight! Please someone show me the true lineage?
David69
Angel Of The North
Your avoiding a question...
Has the jewish royal line been broken because not all kings have sons!!!!? please answer and explain... who is the jewish royal family??? Where are they?
David69
Angel Of The North
Majick is communication. it is from the piniel gland and the chemical dmt that is produced ffrom there to allow us to communicate on a higher level and that include projecting ghosts/memorys and so called magic/paranormal activety etc etc!!!!
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
"If a king arises from the House of David who meditates on the Torah, occupies himself with the commandments as did his ancestor King David, observes the commandments of the Written and Oral Law, prevails upon all Israel to walk in the way of the Torah and to follow its direction, and fights the wars of God, it may be assumed that he is the Messiah.
If he does these things and is fully successful, rebuilds the Third Temple on its location, and gathers the exiled Jews, he is beyond doubt the Messiah. But if he is not fully successful, or if he is killed, he is not the Messiah."
Mishna Torah Kings 11:4
Seeing as how non-Jews are not bound to the Torah, we obviously cannot be talking about a non-Jew.
Numbers 1:2 "Take a census of the entire assembly of the Children of Israel according to their families, according to their fathers' household, by number of the names, every male according to their head count.
Look throughout the book, and you'll see emphasis placed on the father's household.
A footnote regarding the Hebrew phrase L'vait Avotam (According to their fathers' household)
A person's tribal affiliation is patrilineal. Thus, for example, a Jew with a father from Judah and a mother from Asher belonged to the tribe of Judah. Nationality, however, is matrilineal, so that the child of a Jewish father and a gentile mother is a gentile.
Davidic Dynasty is dedicated to uniting the Jewish descendants of King David (David Hamelech) at a gathering in Jerusalem 3000 years in the making, June 5-7, 2007.
No. The Jewish royal bloodline has not been broken, as there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of legitimate blood descendants of David and Solomon around today.
If he does these things and is fully successful, rebuilds the Third Temple on its location, and gathers the exiled Jews, he is beyond doubt the Messiah. But if he is not fully successful, or if he is killed, he is not the Messiah."
Mishna Torah Kings 11:4
Seeing as how non-Jews are not bound to the Torah, we obviously cannot be talking about a non-Jew.
Numbers 1:2 "Take a census of the entire assembly of the Children of Israel according to their families, according to their fathers' household, by number of the names, every male according to their head count.
Look throughout the book, and you'll see emphasis placed on the father's household.
A footnote regarding the Hebrew phrase L'vait Avotam (According to their fathers' household)
A person's tribal affiliation is patrilineal. Thus, for example, a Jew with a father from Judah and a mother from Asher belonged to the tribe of Judah. Nationality, however, is matrilineal, so that the child of a Jewish father and a gentile mother is a gentile.
Davidic Dynasty is dedicated to uniting the Jewish descendants of King David (David Hamelech) at a gathering in Jerusalem 3000 years in the making, June 5-7, 2007.
No. The Jewish royal bloodline has not been broken, as there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of legitimate blood descendants of David and Solomon around today.
It's obvious you're not of it, otherwise you wouldn't be asking. You can't be Moshiach due to the fact that you aren't Jewish, period. That's requirement 1. Also, Yoshke couldn't be Moshiach since he...failed.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
can you walk on water, heal the sick and raise the dead? If you can do that, then im sure you are someone special.
Even that doesn't make one the Messiah. Nor does it fulfill any requirements that a Messiah is required to meet.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
no imperfect human can be the messiah
anyone who has a human father cannot be the messiah as that does not fulfill the requirement that the Messiah be the son of God.
Actually, no demigod can be the Messiah, the requirements are clear. The Moshiach will be human. You're free to stop worshipping Zeus and Heracles any time now.no imperfect human can be the messiah
anyone who has a human father cannot be the messiah as that does not fulfill the requirement that the Messiah be the son of God.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
really the messiah can be anyone that God chooses him to be. We dont annoint the messiah, God does. If he wants to make one of his angels the messiah, he can.
Actually, HaShem has made it clear what the Moshiach would and wouldn't be, so even though it is his decision, he has given us clues on how to recognize and what to require of the one he chooses. Also, we aren't supposed to worship anyone, Moshiach or not. Shemot Kaf is absolutely clear as to what we will or will not worship.
David69
Angel Of The North
No and neither did Jesus! Only those with eyes that see know the true meaning of the words!
David69
Angel Of The North
So you dont know then? The bloodline!
My orthodox doctor would disagree with you! I think most jews are racist.
Just imagine a non jewish mashiach, builds the temple, gathers the jews from exile, brings the world together and does everything else! The whole world accept him as Messiah, apart from the Jews because he is not a jew.... Get a grip!!!
Mashiach doesnt have to be Jewish but he must have jewish anscestors!!!
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David69
Angel Of The North
David69
Angel Of The North
KADURI'S PORTRAYAL OF THE MESSIAH
Kaduri’s grandson, Rabbi Yosef Kaduri, said his grandfather spoke many times during his last days about the coming of the Messiah and redemption through the Messiah.
His spiritual portrayals of the Messiah—reminiscent of New Testament accounts—were published on the websites Kaduri.net and Nfc:
"It is hard for many good people in society to understand the person of the Messiah. The leadership and order of a Messiah of flesh and blood is hard to accept for many in the nation. As leader, the Messiah will not hold any office, but will be among the people and use the media to communicate. His reign will be pure and without personal or political desire. During his dominion, only righteousness and truth will reign.
"Will all believe in the Messiah right away? No, in the beginning some of us will believe in him and some not. It will be easier for non-religious people to follow the Messiah than for Orthodox people.
"The revelation of the Messiah will be fullled in two stages: First, he will actively confirm his position as Messiah without knowing himself that he is the Messiah. Then he will reveal himself to some Jews, not necessarily to wise Torah scholars. It can be even simple people. Only then he will reveal himself to the whole nation. -The people will wonder and say: ‘What, that’s the Messiah?’ Many have known his name but have not believed that he is the Messiah."
Put this in your pipe and toke real hard!!!! Not your veiws eh!
Kaduri’s grandson, Rabbi Yosef Kaduri, said his grandfather spoke many times during his last days about the coming of the Messiah and redemption through the Messiah.
His spiritual portrayals of the Messiah—reminiscent of New Testament accounts—were published on the websites Kaduri.net and Nfc:
"It is hard for many good people in society to understand the person of the Messiah. The leadership and order of a Messiah of flesh and blood is hard to accept for many in the nation. As leader, the Messiah will not hold any office, but will be among the people and use the media to communicate. His reign will be pure and without personal or political desire. During his dominion, only righteousness and truth will reign.
"Will all believe in the Messiah right away? No, in the beginning some of us will believe in him and some not. It will be easier for non-religious people to follow the Messiah than for Orthodox people.
"The revelation of the Messiah will be fullled in two stages: First, he will actively confirm his position as Messiah without knowing himself that he is the Messiah. Then he will reveal himself to some Jews, not necessarily to wise Torah scholars. It can be even simple people. Only then he will reveal himself to the whole nation. -The people will wonder and say: ‘What, that’s the Messiah?’ Many have known his name but have not believed that he is the Messiah."
Put this in your pipe and toke real hard!!!! Not your veiws eh!
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