The Reality of Evil

[lunamoth]

The funny thing is, I don't really have a problem conceptualizing what evil is. I can think of several things right now that I consider evil. It's just that it doesn't seem to have an equal, yet opposite force. I can't think of anything that is as good as evil is bad. Am I making any sense at all? For instance, my husband's grandmother was evil...I have no doubt about that and if you want I can give you details as to why I feel this way. I can think of no person who is good enough to right the wrong she's done and I cannot think of a word that would describe such a person either. What is a word for something as powerful as evil, but the antithesis of evil? Good just isn't good enough.

Love?

 

[Ðanisty]

Love?

I don't know a love out there strong enough or good enough to combat the evil that was my hubby's grandmother. I'm glad death finally solved that problem. Besides, is evil the same thing as hate? Is it a stronger word? It seems that way to me. This is something I've been thinking about for a long time...lol.

 

[Random]

I don't know a love out there strong enough or good enough to combat the evil that was my hubby's grandmother. I'm glad death finally solved that problem. Besides, is evil the same thing as hate? Is it a stronger word? It seems that way to me. This is something I've been thinking about for a long time...lol.

You don't need to make a neat little duality out of it, Danisty. Luna was right, Love is the antithesis of all adversities, hate, malice, sin, death and evil.

 

[Ðanisty]

You don't need to make a neat little duality out of it, Danisty. Luna was right, Love is the antithesis of all adversities, hate, malice, sin, death and evil.

If you say so. My reality doesn't work that way. In fact, I don't even put hate, sin, and death in the same category as evil...malice, perhaps.

 

[lunamoth]

I don't know a love out there strong enough or good enough to combat the evil that was my hubby's grandmother. I'm glad death finally solved that problem. Besides, is evil the same thing as hate? Is it a stronger word? It seems that way to me. This is something I've been thinking about for a long time...lol.

I'm not trying to offer platitudes Danisty. The suffering in your family from your husband's Grandmother is all too real I'm sure. I'm not saying that you need to have warm fuzzy feelings toward her. I think there is a relationship between hate and fear and what we call evil. I think it starts in fear.

luna

 

[Ðanisty]

I'm not trying to offer platitudes Danisty. The suffering in your family from your husband's Grandmother is all too real I'm sure. I'm not saying that you need to have warm fuzzy feelings toward her. I think there is a relationship between hate and fear and what we call evil. I think it starts in fear.

luna

I think it starts in sickness. Her evil is her own and it really has nothing to do with my hatred or any fear that her children or grandchildren suffered. Evil, as far as I can see, is a very human thing.

 

[Quiddity]

The problem is not that 'bad people do bad things,' but that good people do bad things.

Why?

Is knowledge the answer? If we know right from wrong can we be good? Will overcoming ignorance make us good and lead us to peace and harmony?

OR...is the opposite true?

What do you think of this summation:

1. Evil is real
2. The good are not as smart as they think they are.
3. The good need all the help they can get; one cannot be good on one's own.

This suggests that we are 'morally weak,' and is illustrated by the lynch mob. They see themselves and each other as good; they do not contemplate evil acts. They may feel they are driven by a sense of offended righteousness. They would argue that is was a sense of justice that motivated them to join with their neighbors in dispensing rough justice. Where others see that what they are doing is evil, they themselves see no evil in their actions.

By not recognizing that we have our own capacity for evil we are ripe to be overtaken by it.

What do you think? Is evil real? If so, how is it overcome?

*the above is paraphrased from The Good Book by Peter Gomes*

Because people don't gravitate toward good and evil. They gravitate toward or against pain and pleasure. Where that may fall varies from person to person.

 

[Faint]

1. Evil is real
2. The good are not as smart as they think they are.
3. The good need all the help they can get; one cannot be good on one's own.

1. Yes, "evil" is real, just as "blurry" is real, or "heavy". All are terms we use to describe something. What is generally regarded as evil is based on human consensus of what is good and bad for us. Evil then is simply an extreme bad. Actions and thoughts are not intrinsically evil. Evil is nothing more than an adjective.
2. Who are the good and how has their intelligence been measured in relation to what they perceive their intelligence to be? Does Gomes provide some correlational analyses or is this book just another example of confirmation bias?
3. This sentence is funny. You write "the good..." as a subject implying that they (as a group) are good...and then say one (individual) "cannot be good". Are you implying that only groups of people can be good, but individuals cannot? And if individuals cannot be good on their own, how then can they be good together? In other words, if one cannot be good alone, an individual is then not good. Therefore your premise is expressed in the following:

1 (not good) + 1x (not good) = good

How does that work exactly?

 

[Ulver]

Evil in terms of being objectively so, depends upon free will and, as I stated in an earlier topic, to me there seems to be no such thing as free will and therefore no Good or Evil. So in Danisty's case of the step-grandmother, I'd say her actions had a cause, they were not rooted in some imaginary entity called her "Will" or "Soul". As I'd say terrorists aren't evil and neither is perhaps someone destined to kill me. Perhaps emotionally I feel the need to call them or label them evil in order to continue with life or inorder to deal with such problems, but in the bigger picture they are not evil. They are a pebble hitting another pebble.

 

[lunamoth]

I think it starts in sickness. Her evil is her own and it really has nothing to do with my hatred or any fear that her children or grandchildren suffered. Evil, as far as I can see, is a very human thing.

That's a good answer I think Danisty.

luna

 

[lunamoth]

Because people don't gravitate toward good and evil. They gravitate toward or against pain and pleasure. Where that may fall varies from person to person.

So you do not think that evil is real?

luna

 

[Gentoo]

People often don't realize they're doing evil things until after the fact. Note I say "often", not "always". Besides, good and evil are just terms to describe an act that will be taken in many different ways. It's all relative. I don't believe that any one act can be described as completely good, or completely evil.

 

[Ðanisty]

That's a good answer I think Danisty.

luna

Thank you.

Now I could use some help defining something positive to the same degree as evil.

 

[Quiddity]

So you do not think that evil is real?

luna

Yes I do.

 

[Ðanisty]

People often don't realize they're doing evil things until after the fact. Note I say "often", not "always". Besides, good and evil are just terms to describe an act that will be taken in many different ways. It's all relative. I don't believe that any one act can be described as completely good, or completely evil.

Then I challenge you in finding the good that can come from locking your child in the room with you and clawing yourself to shreds and screaming for your husband to help save you from your child...the one who is just sitting there crying not knowing why any of this is happening. What good comes from physically and literally destroying yourself and blaming your child?

Now I agree that it is relative to the extent that my husband's grandmother certainly believed her actions were appropriate enough to actually commit them. I also believe she did this intentionally to pass along a sort of twisted legacy. That doesn't exclude it from being evil though as far as I'm concerned. If I believed in the Christian hell and the Christian idea of demons (which I don't because, as I said, I believe evil to be a human trait), I would believe this women to have crept up from hell itself for the sole purpose of committing infernal acts on helpless people. What we really have is a woman who was sick and her sickness overcame her and there is no word strong enough to describe her other than evil.

 

[lunamoth]

1. Yes, "evil" is real, just as "blurry" is real, or "heavy". All are terms we use to describe something. What is generally regarded as evil is based on human consensus of what is good and bad for us. Evil then is simply an extreme bad. Actions and thoughts are not intrinsically evil. Evil is nothing more than an adjective.

OK. I understand what you are saying. Evil is not a force but evil describes a choice or action.

2. Who are the good and how has their intelligence been measured in relation to what they perceive their intelligence to be? Does Gomes provide some correlational analyses or is this book just another example of confirmation bias?

I think the point was not about degree of intelligence, but about the obseration that we can't hope to use our knowledge of what is evil to stop from perpetuating evil or committing evil acts ourselves. For example, the lynch mob probably represents average intelligence among the participants, but they did not view what they were doing as evil. They may have even viewed it as good or righteous or justice.

3. This sentence is funny. You write "the good..." as a subject implying that they (as a group) are good...and then say one (individual) "cannot be good". Are you implying that only groups of people can be good, but individuals cannot? And if individuals cannot be good on their own, how then can they be good together? In other words, if one cannot be good alone, an individual is then not good.

Yes, it is a provocative way of stating it. I think it is pointing out the ambiguity of good. It's easy to point at Hitler or Danisty's husband's grandmother and say they are evil. It's harder to see the evil in ourselves and everyday citizens who for the most part sincerely try to be 'good.'

I think groups are more likely prone to the things I would point to as evil. It's a good question.

Therefore your premise is expressed in the following:

1 (not good) + 1x (not good) = good

How does that work exactly?

I was going to ask you.

Thank you for the reply,
luna

 

[Guitar's Cry]

When it comes to good/evil, I think it's important to look at it from the two perspectives of objective/subjective (I use these a lot, since I see them as useful tools for categorizing what is "probably real," and what "may-as-well-be real.")

Objectively, evil is simply a manifestation of perspective. Something we may see as evil--let's say a murder--is simply a changing and shifting of material. A sharp shard of metal cuts through organic material, causing nerves to fire and eventually die. It becomes part of the neverending process of change that characterizes the material world.

It's when perspective (subjectivity) comes in that the changes gain a sense of good and evil. We see the shard of metal cutting through organic material as an act that causes suffering. The action takes on meaning, and it is that meaning that makes it evil.

Of course, this is subjective relativism, and leads to cultural relativism. If a group attributes evil meaning to an action, then to that group it is evil.

So really, I see evil as existing in a subjective way, but not in an objective way. Personally, I feel that forgiveness offers a nice counter to evil. Look at the recent incident with the Amish. Despite something that few would argue against not being evil, they still forgave, and so from their perspective the evil act was countered. This may not be universally true, but it works for them (and me).

 

[Gentoo]

Then I challenge you in finding the good that can come from locking your child in the room with you and clawing yourself to shreds and screaming for your husband to help save you from your child...the one who is just sitting there crying not knowing why any of this is happening. What good comes from physically and literally destroying yourself and blaming your child?

Now I agree that it is relative to the extent that my husband's grandmother certainly believed her actions were appropriate enough to actually commit them. I also believe she did this intentionally to pass along a sort of twisted legacy. That doesn't exclude it from being evil though as far as I'm concerned. If I believed in the Christian hell and the Christian idea of demons (which I don't because, as I said, I believe evil to be a human trait), I would believe this women to have crept up from hell itself for the sole purpose of committing infernal acts on helpless people. What we really have is a woman who was sick and her sickness overcame her and there is no word strong enough to describe her other than evil.

.... okay, so maybe I didn't think that statement all the way through. Ideally, I like to think that there's good in all people, and time after time I'm proven wrong. But I also know when I'm backed into a corner, and when to cease and desist. I appologize, I don't know what else to say without sounding overly flakey...

 

[lunamoth]

Personally, I feel that forgiveness offers a nice counter to evil. Look at the recent incident with the Amish. Despite something that few would argue against not being evil, they still forgave, and so from their perspective the evil act was countered. This may not be universally true, but it works for them (and me).

Oooh, I like that. Seems to me a lot like...grace.

luna

 

[gnomon]

Don't believe in the concept of evil as far as a supernatural force in this world. Bad and good as qualifying words are enough for me. I'm experienced enough to also know that what someone often calls evil is what I would call bad and the same sentiment is being expressed.

However, the concept of applying the notion of good or evil to people as a general part of their inborn nature is pointless to me. I say this in the sense that it seems to create more problems than it solves.