The ressurrection of you!

[Scuba Pete]

Matthew 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.NIV

We will be like the angels in heaven... not like men on earth. I like that!

 

[Heneni]

Hello scuba

The scripture you are using was used to illustrate the 'non' marriage arrangements in heaven, not what type of body we will have.

Secondly the latter part of that scripture clearly states that God is the god of the living...implying that abraham was alive, but certainly not an angel.

Heneni

 

[Scuba Pete]

Are you saying that angels are not alive? Interesting concept that.

 

[Katzpur]

Good points. I would like to talk about why you think few are going to hell since I have been wondering abaout that myself. Perhaps a different thread?

Sounds good to me.

What is your view on the order of things:

1. Resurrection of the body and then judgment
2. Or judgement and then the resurrection of the body

Well, I believe that there is a sort of "preliminary" broad-stroke kind of judgment which takes place immediately after death, whereby the spirits of the righteous and the spirits of the wicked are temporarily separated. Luke 16:19-23 seems to be speaking of this state.

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

I believe that the Last/Final Judgment, however, will be when we as resurrected beings stand before God to answer to Him for the way in which we lived our lives.

 

[Heneni]

Certainly angels are alive, but abraham is not an angel.

 

[Heneni]

Sounds good to me.

Well, I believe that there is a sort of "preliminary" broad-stroke kind of judgment which takes place immediately after death, whereby the spirits of the righteous and the spirits of the wicked are temporarily separated. Luke 16:19-23 seems to be speaking of this state.

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

I believe that the Last/Final Judgment, however, will be when we as resurrected beings stand before God to answer to Him for the way in which we lived our lives.

I agree with you that there is a final judgement, and that we will have to take responsiblity for what we have done with our lives. I believe we have to have resurrected bodies in order to come to the place of judgement, and environment where the resurrected body can stand before god.

You know there are people who are of the opinion that sin cannot enter into the presence of god. So then if the 'wicked' is raised or resurrected how then will they be able to come into the presence of god?

Just wondering
Love
Heneni

 

[Katzpur]

You know there are people who are of the opinion that sin cannot enter into the presence of god. So then if the 'wicked' is raised or resurrected how then will they be able to come into the presence of god?

Well, I don't believe that wicked people can dwell in the presence of God, but if the wicked are going to have to account for their lives at all -- whether in resurrected form or not -- it seems to me that they'd have to at least temporarily be in His presence. I'm guessing the experience will not be a particularly pleasant one for them.

Heneni, you've got to tell me what kind of a religious background you have. You say you don't belong to any religion, and yet you have some pretty clearcut views on theology (several of them being pretty similar to mine). What exactly has led you to believe as you do?

 

[Heneni]

I was raised in a protestant home, went to a protestant bible school and was left empty after I realised that little if any of the doctrine was the truth.

I discovered this by living their truth, and it clearly resulted in nothing but bondage.

When i divorced religion, it was then that I actaully started to understand the heart of god better.

Its a journey...im learning as I go along.

If you check how many different religions there are...there are hundreds, i dont know what halve of these mean, all i know is that i go by my instincts, trust god to show me where I am wrong, and listen to others and pay carefull attention to the world around me, and to my life, since god teaches me about himself in these ways.

Love
Heneni

 

[Heneni]

I'm guessing the experience will not be a particularly pleasant one for them.

Well that is just what bothers me about this whole resurrection thing.

The bible says that everyone will bow to Jesus and acknowledge him as Lord of Lords.

I dont think that God requires this type of bowing unless it was truly out of respect and admiration. I dont think he will be sanding there feeling great about the fact that finally the are BOWING!

No i think that everyone, if they bow, will be for the reason that they are convinced that god is good.

And since resurrection of the wicked tradisionally is followed by them packing up for hell, i dont see how that seems ok after bowing to Jesus.

There is something wrong with this teaching wouldnt you agree?

 

[Katzpur]

Well that is just what bothers me about this whole resurrection thing.

The bible says that everyone will bow to Jesus and acknowledge him as Lord of Lords.

I dont think that God requires this type of bowing unless it was truly out of respect and admiration. I dont think he will be sanding there feeling great about the fact that finally the are BOWING!

No i think that everyone, if they bow, will be for the reason that they are convinced that god is good.

And since resurrection of the wicked tradisionally is followed by them packing up for hell, i dont see how that seems ok after bowing to Jesus.

There is something wrong with this teaching wouldnt you agree?

You've raised some good points, and for the most part, I agree with you. When I said that it won't be a particularly pleasant experience for the wicken to stand before God to be held accountable for their sins, I wasn't picturing Jesus looking down on them, gloating, and thinking, "Well, it's about time!" I was thinking more along the lines of how they are going to feel, knowing what He did for them and how it took them so long to finally recognize how much He loved them all along. But, as I said before, I think that very, very few of them will be "packing up for Hell" afterwards. I actually believe that almost all of the people we would label as "wicked" are going to ultimately end up in Heaven. That doesn't mean that I think Heaven is a one-size-fits all kind of place. Jesus said that He would reward every man according to his works. To me, it is only logical to believe that just as there are varying degrees of righteousness, we will be rewarded to varying degrees, based on our righteousness, our obedience to God's commandments and the love we show for our fellow-men.

One thing I've often thought about, which your post reminded me of, was that so many Christians believe that as soon as they die, they will go to either Heaven or Hell. Well, for starters, that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. If the Last Judgment is not going to take place until after we are resurrected, what would be the point if everyone who was going to go to Heaven was already there? Also, what about all of the good people who never had a chance to hear about Jesus Christ? What kind of a God would just condemn them to Hell because they happened to be born at the wrong time or in the wrong place? Not the God I worship, I can tell you that!

 

[Troublemane]

I think instead its a ressurrection in Spirit. It seems to me there must be more to the cosmos than just the world we can see, and if there are multiple heavens there might be an infinity of layers to reality. I think rather than returning to earth we may just keep discovering newer and higher levels to reality, always getting closer to the Divine Godhead but never reaching it, cuz its endless.

 

[Katzpur]

I think instead its a ressurrection in Spirit. It seems to me there must be more to the cosmos than just the world we can see, and if there are multiple heavens there might be an infinity of layers to reality. I think rather than returning to earth we may just keep discovering newer and higher levels to reality, always getting closer to the Divine Godhead but never reaching it, cuz its endless.

But that's not what resurrection means. Resurrection means to be raised from the dead or be brought back to life. If the spirit is eternal (which you kind of seem to believe it is), it doesn't die in the first place. It just leaves the body. In other words, "a resurrection in spirit" is pretty much an impossibility. What you seem to be describing is more on the order of a reincarnation.

 

[+Xausted]

But that's not what resurrection means. Resurrection means to be raised from the dead or be brought back to life. If the spirit is eternal (which you kind of seem to believe it is), it doesn't die in the first place. It just leaves the body. In other words, "a resurrection in spirit" is pretty much an impossibility. What you seem to be describing is more on the order of a reincarnation.

it may be seen as one in the same thing. since it is the spirit that lives on, and it is that which is given life, the body is immaterial

 

[Katzpur]

it may be seen as one in the same thing. since it is the spirit that lives on, and it is that which is given life, the body is immaterial

What do you mean by "immaterial"? Are you saying the body isn't made of matter or that the body has no importance?

 

[+Xausted]

What do you mean by "immaterial"? Are you saying the body isn't made of matter or that the body has no importance?

since the body decays, then yes , that is what i am saying
edit:
the body is matter in the way we perceive it...but perception is relative.

 

[Katzpur]

since the body decays, then yes , that is what i am saying
edit:
the body is matter in the way we perceive it...but perception is relative.

Well, do you believe that a Higher Power created us? If so, what did He create us from?

 

[Scuba Pete]

"a resurrection in spirit" is pretty much an impossibility. What you seem to be describing is more on the order of a reincarnation.

I don't think the scriptures agree with this:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. NIV

What died here? What did we crucify in baptism? You didn't physically die! It was your sinful nature: your spirit!

Now, how did Jesus consider the flesh? Let's look:

John 6:62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. NIV

 

[+Xausted]

Well, do you believe that a Higher Power created us? If so, what did He create us from?

nope, i am afraid i dont...
where we come from....well for me since matter can neither be created nor destroyed i will turn the question back to you...where did God come from, and from what did he supposedly make us from

 

[Heneni]

Hello Katzspur

I agree it doesnt make a whole lot of sense, and it is after I realised that everyone will be bowing to Jesus that i started to rethink my previous idea of who goes to hell and who doesnt.

I have hope for everyone. How god does that is entirely a mystery.

The spirit being eternal, and it can not die, but only sleep, I would say that there are many instances in the bible where Jesus refers to someone sleeping, and when he does, he means the spirit is not active somewhere, but is instead I believe, sleeping somewhere. That would mean, that the spirit is NOT here on earth.

The bible does say that those who believe never come up for judgement. What do you make of this?

Could it be that the resurrected body is for the purpose of a wedding and not judgement?

Whats your idea?

Love
Heneni

 

[Troublemane]

ressurrection, in my mind, refers not to a reconstituting of the body but a totally new reality, like waking up from the dream of this life into a completely new one. only that new life is the real life, whereas this world will be remembered as being just a strange and confusing dream.