The ressurrection of you!

[Heneni]

ressurrection, in my mind, refers not to a reconstituting of the body but a totally new reality, like waking up from the dream of this life into a completely new one. only that new life is the real life, whereas this world will be remembered as being just a strange and confusing dream.

I dont see the reality of God right now to be seperate from the reality of his existance when we are resurrected. The new reality i will concede is the truth about all things which will greatly affect the way we see things and percieve things in the resurrected body.

The resurrected body being different to the one we have now, a body that can operate and move in heaven.What is the benefit of a resurrected body if it is not to be able to enter into the realm of the new reality?


Love
Heneni

 

[Heneni]

Hello scuba

The ONLY instance where the spirit died was with Jesus on the cross, even then we could not make it die ourselves.

So once again our spirits are eternal and cannot die again.

It is also noteworthy, that only IF you were in christ, did your spirit die. But then he resurrected it again.

Were all spirits in him?

Love
Heneni

 

[Katzpur]

I don't think the scriptures agree with this:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. NIV

What died here? What did we crucify in baptism? You didn't physically die! It was your sinful nature: your spirit!

Now, how did Jesus consider the flesh? Let's look:

John 6:62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. NIV

I would have to respond, Pete, by saying that I believe in both a physical death and a spiritual death. Likewise, I believe in a spiritual rebirth and a physical rebirth. Had Jesus not gone to the trouble of pointing out that He was a physical being after His resurrection (in other words that His spirit had given His previously lifeless body new life), you might have a point. But He appeared to His Apostles and others with this new, physical body. He ate and drank with them. He ascended into Heaven with that same body. I can't simply dismiss these things!

I agree that the spirit is what gives life. Without it, the flesh is useless. With it, the flesh becomes a living soul, and in the case of a resurrected being, an eternally living soul.

 

[Katzpur]

I have hope for everyone. How god does that is entirely a mystery.

I do, too. I don't think it's so much a matter of it being a mystery (although I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to believe I have all the answers). It probably is, however, a subject best left to a thread all its own.

The spirit being eternal, and it can not die, but only sleep, I would say that there are many instances in the bible where Jesus refers to someone sleeping, and when he does, he means the spirit is not active somewhere, but is instead I believe, sleeping somewhere.

I guess I'm unaware of those verses. Could you help me out there? I don't know why a spirit would require sleep, since that seems to be something related to a physical need. You also said, "But I also believe that the spirit continues to grow in wisdom and understanding." Did you stop to consider how it could do that if it was sleeping?

That would mean, that the spirit is NOT here on earth.

Why would it mean that?

The bible does say that those who believe never come up for judgement. What do you make of this?

Again, I'm not aware of that. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've just never heard that before.

Could it be that the resurrected body is for the purpose of a wedding and not judgement?

Or maybe both? Judged worthy of the Bridegroom perhaps?

 

[Katzpur]

ressurrection, in my mind, refers not to a reconstituting of the body but a totally new reality, like waking up from the dream of this life into a completely new one. only that new life is the real life, whereas this world will be remembered as being just a strange and confusing dream.

In your view, Troublemane, is there ever an end to this cycle? Or does it go on forever? If it goes on forever, what is the purpose of our existance?

 

[Katzpur]

nope, i am afraid i dont...
where we come from....well for me since matter can neither be created nor destroyed i will turn the question back to you...where did God come from, and from what did he supposedly make us from

Okay, well since you don't believe in God, I'm not quite sure how we can approach the subject of the value of our physical bodies in a way that will make sense to both of us. But, to answer your question, it is also a basic tenet of my faith that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. It's my belief that we were created from the light of truth that was co-eternal with God. Where He came from I'm afraid I can't say.

By the way, +Xausted, have you noticed how much we look alike? I just look like I've had a great night's sleep and you look like you're trying to shake a hangover. Other than that...

 

[Heneni]

Hello katzpur

Lazarus was said to be asleep, but he was dead, his spirit therefore not on this earth, and not active somewhere else.

I consider spiritual sleep as a time where the spirit does not actively exist on this planet, and/or the spirit is not active in paradise either.

I think that God wakes people from their spiritual sleep and then sends them back to earth do do some things. John the Baptist was said to have 'risen', or 'raised up'. I believe this means he was woken up and sent to this earth.

Pharaoh was 'raised up' for a certain purpose as well.

Like god who rested on the seventh day, so spirits work and then rest.
There is a time to work and a time to rest.

There are spirits that are said to have fallen asleep in Christ. They are not dead, they are just not active on this planet or active in paradise.

There are two different types of resurrections as you have said. The physical resurrection of the body, and the resurrection of the spirit which happened on calvary, but then there is another resurrection, which isnt about life or death of the spirit or body, but the awakening from a spiritual sleep, and the spirit is raised up, woken up to come to earth.

Love
Heneni

(PS: ill get the scriptures about sleeping for you and give them to you asap)

 

[Troublemane]

In your view, Troublemane, is there ever an end to this cycle? Or does it go on forever? If it goes on forever, what is the purpose of our existance?

It may not go on forever, but I think its more probable than a literal reading of revelations. I just cant believe in a bloodthirsty God that would create the world just to destroy it and everyone in it. Then rule it with only his favorite few for all eternity. What would be the point of that?
However, reincarnation (which i have come to believe more in lately, due to personal experiences with it), seems a more plausible explaination for the concept of ressurrection. That we would be brought back in the flesh but with renewed spirits, for having been on the other side for a time (which may be years or decades or centuries...) It seems more likely for immortal souls to be re-incarnated, since being immortal they cant be created or destroyed, but only grow a little more with each life.

Perhaps we come here to learn something specific. I think the more experienced souls will likely try out challenging lives like being handicapped, or paralyzed maybe. Being successful and rich and beautiful may seem like the ideal life for someone to have, but I think those who have been around for a few lives would think it boring!

No i think each lifetime is as if we are sleeping, and the time between lives is when we wake up. Thats why heaven is described as being our true home. Its this world thats the dream. :angel2:

 

[Heneni]

:yeso you want to start a thread on reincarnation troublemane? Perhaps we can start a thread on who gets saved and who doesnt too.


I consider the body to be what the bible refers to as clothes. A covering so to speak of the spirit. This body can therefore be taken off the spirit and replaced by another garment or body. This is also what i think happens during reincarnation, the next body a different set of clothes or different body on the same spirit.

But for the purpose of this thread..

Do you think it is possible to be clothed so to speak with a resurrected body, if the spirit inside has not learnt to overcome the nature of the old garment, the old flesh or natural body?

At first it would seem like the body is only a garment to put on in order to move around on this earth, but it is more far more...it is constantly at war with our spirits.

Love
Heneni

 

[Katzpur]

Hi, Heneni.

Lazarus was said to be asleep, but he was dead, his spirit therefore not on this earth, and not active somewhere else.

The second definition for the word "sleep" in Webster's Unabridged Dictionary is "any condition resembling sleep, as that of death." I have heard the word used poetically as referring specifically to death. For instance, if you've seen "Les Miz," you may recall the words sung by Fantine to Jean Valjean moments before she dies. She says, "For God's sake, please stay till I am sleeping." Later in the play, as Eponine is dying, Marius says to her, "I will stay with you till you are sleeping." Perhaps I'm seeing a connection where there isn't one, but I have often seen the word "sleep" used as a euphemism for "death." I clearly seems much less final.

I consider spiritual sleep as a time where the spirit does not actively exist on this planet, and/or the spirit is not active in paradise either.

I think that God wakes people from their spiritual sleep and then sends them back to earth do do some things. John the Baptist was said to have 'risen', or 'raised up'. I believe this means he was woken up and sent to this earth.

So would it be accurate to say that you believe that most of the time after the body dies, the spirit is more or less unconscious?

There are two different types of resurrections as you have said. The physical resurrection of the body, and the resurrection of the spirit which happened on calvary, but then there is another resurrection, which isnt about life or death of the spirit or body, but the awakening from a spiritual sleep, and the spirit is raised up, woken up to come to earth.

Let's talk more about this. You kind of lost me. I actually didn't say I believe in two resurrections, although I can see how it would have come across that way. I believe that we are spiritually "reborn" when we are baptized and enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. We are "resurrected" when our spirit re-enters into our newly perfected body. I see Christ as having died on Calvary and having been resurrected in the Garden Tomb. I guess I didn't explain myself very well.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Hello scuba

The ONLY instance where the spirit died was with Jesus on the cross, even then we could not make it die ourselves.

What evidence do you have of that? What scripture reference?

You never did answer my question though. What dies in Baptism. It's surely not our physical self.[/quote]

 

[Katzpur]

It may not go on forever, but I think its more probable than a literal reading of revelations. I just cant believe in a bloodthirsty God that would create the world just to destroy it and everyone in it. Then rule it with only his favorite few for all eternity. What would be the point of that?

Yikes! I don't believe in a God like that myself! Of course, my beliefs about salvation are admittedly pretty different from those of traditional Christianity.

However, reincarnation (which i have come to believe more in lately, due to personal experiences with it), seems a more plausible explaination for the concept of ressurrection. That we would be brought back in the flesh but with renewed spirits, for having been on the other side for a time (which may be years or decades or centuries...) It seems more likely for immortal souls to be re-incarnated, since being immortal they cant be created or destroyed, but only grow a little more with each life.

I see resurrection as being a one-time thing, but I believe we have the ability to continue to grow and progress eternally -- just not as a different person, but as the same person we started out as. In other words, I've always been me and I will always be me. I don't believe I will become someone new in the next life but that I will continue to become more knowledgable and more perfect all the time.

No i think each lifetime is as if we are sleeping, and the time between lives is when we wake up. Thats why heaven is described as being our true home. Its this world thats the dream. :angel2:

That's really interesting! So you belief that when we think we're alive, we're really doing something more like dreaming? Do you believe you've had other lives before this one? Do you believe it's possible to remember your past lives? It seems like it would be almost essential if you are to be able to learn with each new one. Otherwise, you'd kind of have to start over from scratch each time. Like you, though, I believe that Heaven is our true home. I think that's where we started out and that we existed there before we came to Earth.

 

[Scuba Pete]

He ascended into Heaven with that same body. I can't simply dismiss these things!

Would you say this ascension was miraculous? If it was miraculous, would it matter to us what form that body appeared in?

Who did Jesus leave to be our counselor? Not the Pope! And surely not any other religious "authority". He left his SPIRIT. But we eschew the Spirit's guidance for man's guidance. Sad really.

II Corinthians 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV

Who is the LORD here? None other than the Spirit. But we spend so much time denying the Spirit by focusing on the physical. Again, this is incredibly sad.

 

[Katzpur]

Would you say this ascension was miraculous?

Absolutely!

If it was miraculous, would it matter to us what form that body appeared in?

Uh... I'm not sure I get what you're driving at. Whether it would matter to us or not, the fact is, He ascended in bodily form. A number of people witnessed the event.

Who did Jesus leave to be our counselor? Not the Pope! And surely not any other religious "authority". He left his SPIRIT.

Yes, He left His spirit (i.e. the Holy Ghost).

But we eschew the Spirit's guidance for man's guidance. Sad really.

I agree, it is.

Who is the LORD here? None other than the Spirit. But we spend so much time denying the Spirit by focusing on the physical. Again, this is incredibly sad.

Well, I guess this is just something we will probably never see eye-to-eye on, Pete. You don't understand my focus on the physical and I can't understand why you seem to have such a disdain for it. God created a world filled with physical beauty. You see it every time you go diving. I see it on top of the water. He created men and women and gave them the blessing of being able to enjoy all of the physical pleasures of the world -- to look at a beautiful sunset or a baby's smile, to smell freshly baked bread or the fragrance of a lilac tree, to hug our spouse, to cuddle up with a kitten or puppy and feel its warm fur. All of these things are physical. You seem to have such an aversion to the concept that everything God created is eternal. I don't see us having to choose between focusing on the physical and the spiritual. Both are God-given and are equally essential to true happiness in my opinion.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Uh... I'm not sure I get what you're driving at. Whether it would matter to us or not, the fact is, He ascended in bodily form. A number of people witnessed the event.

The point is, as God, Jesus could ascend however he pleased. As a body, as a dove as whatever he wanted to. It has little bearing how WE will be resurrected.

Yes, He left His spirit (i.e. the Holy Ghost).

I agree, it is.

We agree on more than we disagree on.

Well, I guess this is just something we will probably never see eye-to-eye on, Pete. You don't understand my focus on the physical

No, I fully understand it. I just don't do it.

God created a world filled with physical beauty.

And this beauty will be eclipsed by the coming glory.

 

[Katzpur]

The point is, as God, Jesus could ascend however he pleased. As a body, as a dove as whatever he wanted to. It has little bearing how WE will be resurrected. We agree on more than we disagree on. No, I fully understand it. I just don't do it. And this beauty will be eclipsed by the coming glory.

Well, I'll tell you what, then. You be a spirit and I will be a resurrected, immortal body. Personally, I like the idea of seeing my father's face again, having my husband hold me in his arms, and watching as all my pets come running to greet me. I don't think I'm going to have to sacrifice the physical for the spiritual. If you do, that's fine. As long as we're both happy, that's all that matters, huh? I mean, it's all about us, isn't it?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Otay then... I think I will just leave my happiness up to God. He knows me better than I do.

 

[Heneni]

A spirit needs a body. That body must be suitable for the environment the spirit finds itself in.

The body is the clothes or garment of the spirit.

When the environment changes, so does the clothes that the spirit has on. The body of the spirit must change to accomadate the new environment.

So the resurrected body is a garment, wrapped around the spirit to make it suitable to live in heaven.

Angles, when they are on this earth, take on the form of a human body, the human body being the garment needed to adapt to the environment.

A spirit can enter a donkey or anything really.

You are born naked in this world, your body the garment of the spirit inside of you, but then you put on clothes. This should be enough for us to realise, that like the natural body needs to be clothed, so the natural body is the garment of the spirit.

The resurrected body will therefore be a body that is suitable for the new environment it is going to.

Heneni

 

[Heneni]

Here are scriptures that show that there are times that our spirits are sleeping. A sleeping spirit is a spirit that is not on this earth doing whatever it was sent here to do.

A sleeping spirit is a spirit that is not active on this earth, but that exists in either sheol or paradise.

But at any time god can wake the spirit up from its sleep and send it back to earth. I also believe that if you go to paradise, you dont sleep all the time, you learn and grow in wisdom and understanding, so that when you re-enter this world, you can do as your master had taught you to do.

1 Thess 4: 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

1 Tess 5:. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 Cor 15: 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

 

[Muffled]

Here are scriptures that show that there are times that our spirits are sleeping. A sleeping spirit is a spirit that is not on this earth doing whatever it was sent here to do.

A sleeping spirit is a spirit that is not active on this earth, but that exists in either sheol or paradise.

But at any time god can wake the spirit up from its sleep and send it back to earth. I also believe that if you go to paradise, you dont sleep all the time, you learn and grow in wisdom and understanding, so that when you re-enter this world, you can do as your master had taught you to do.

1 Thess 4: 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

1 Tess 5:. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

1 Cor 15: 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

I tend to view this sleep as simply a metaphor for death. Certainly it appears that a body is sleeping when it is dead and people could think that way when every once in a while a dead person revives. That is why Jesus and Lazarus had to be dead three days so that it would not be construed as a revival but as a resurrection.

I have never read anywhere in the Bible about a spirit sleeping. Sleep is something the body requires.