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The Resurrection is it provable?

joelr

Well-Known Member
Objective is very subjective.

One could also say that "Cold-case Christianity" atheist Wallace was also very objective.
One could also say that atheist journalist L. Strobel was also very objective.

So, again, a matter of perspective.

But I understand where you are coming from and you have every right to your position.

Ehrman is not anti-Bible? He loves the Bible. He just said in an interview he's read several hundred books on the Bible by scholars. He said NO HISTORIAN shares the opinion of apologists.
His lifes work is on the Bible? He knows everything, original version, vast historical knowledge. HE just knows it's mythology.


L Strobel was a liar. For one he claimed he was an atheist but was caught in the fact he was evangelizing way before the book. He took atheist arguments and parodied them and he was literally lieing?

For example he says the gospels are "harmonious" and so closely related they must be true. Yet he knows full well about the synoptic problem and the idea in scholarship that they were sourcing the same sources - Q and M which is now Mark. But even as someone who is neutral and just doing a report on FACTS you would have to admit, they could be in sync because they all copied Mark and made some changes.
But he didn't even mention the possibility. Fraud. He was writing an apologist book for apologists and fundamentalists and pretending to be doing research.

Same with C.S, Lewis, Jesus is either a lier, crazy or son of God (Mere Christianity). Given those choices you can rule out crazy/lier because it doesn't add up.
But he purposely left out the same thing all the other savior gods who resurrected in 3 days were, myths.

Bart uses facts and historical data? He truly loves his work and the literature. Just like some scholars study the Illiad or The Oddessy or Homer or any mythology.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
People die for their beliefs. People do not lightly die for things they know to be lies that they made up.


None of the writers of the gospels died for their beliefs. In the myth people died but that is a story. People who followed the religion would die, same as Muslims would die or any other people in a religion. Doesn't mean it's true?
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Nobody knows the dates of the writing of the gospels but the evidence, without the naturalistic presumption that prophecy is not true, points to pre 70AD dating.


Cool so let's drop the naturalistic presumption and Mark was before 70. But we also have to do this with the Quran and now we know that Christians have messed up the true message of God and are infidels. An Angel Gabrielle came to Muhammad and he has witnesses. So with no naturalistic presumption we must say thatChristianity is now updated to Islam. Or suffer a painful doom.

I guess we also have to consider Joe Smiths revelations true as well because an angel did come to him fairly recently. So Christianity is now Muslim-Mormonism.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Um, so the author saw a crucifixion because they were common and used it in the story? That doesn't prove anything? If Inana gushed blood and water would that prove she was real?
When is reality real?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
If a whole heap of witnesses had the story of seeing and even speaking with Elvis that would be better.
There are, as I've shown.
These sightings are also much more recent than the supposed sightings of Jesus after his death.

If these people were threatened physically but refused to change their story, that would be even better.
What difference would that make?
Do you think if somebody believes something despite being threatened that makes the belief true?

Also with Jesus there is the witness of the promised Holy Spirit that was given and which brought gifts, some miraculous, to the church.
These are just flowery words that don't really mean much in this conversation as far as I can tell.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Because several reasons. One is Marks theme was "the least shall be first"

The parables of Jesus are also full of the reversal of expectation theme (Mark 4:30-32, 7:15, 8:35, 10:29-30, 10:44, 12:1-11), and as I already noted, Mark explicitly agrees with the program of concealing the truth behind parables (Mark 4:11-12, 33-34). And so, the empty tomb story is probably itself a parable (just as John Dominic Crossan argues Mark’s entire Gospel is in The Power of Parable), which accordingly employs reversal of expectation as its theme. The tomb has to be empty, in order to confound the expectations of the reader, just as a foreign Simon must carry the cross, a Sanhedrist must bury the body, and women (not men) must be the first to hear the Good News.

This is also why, contrary to all expectation, Jesus is anointed for burial before he dies (14:3), which is meant to summon our attention when the women go to anoint him after his death (16:1), not understanding it’s already happened, and only to find their (and our) expectations reversed by finding his body missing, and a young man in his place—and this with an explicit verbal link to the exchange of one thing for another in Ecclesiastes 4:15—for both Mark and Ecclesiastes speak of walking under the sun and seeing the youth who “stands in place” of the king, just as this youth does in Mark—and just as Mark’s tomb door is explicitly linked with another reversal-of-expectation narrative in Genesis, regarding the fate of Jacob at the well. The expectation is even raised that the tomb will be closed (Mark 16:3), which is yet another deliberate introduction of an expectation that Mark will then foil.

Just as reversal of expectation lies at the heart of the teachings of Jesus—indeed, of the very gospel itself—so it is quite natural for Mark to structure his narrative around such a theme, too. This program leads him to ‘create’ thematic events that thwart the reader’s expectation, and an empty tomb is exactly the sort of thing an author would invent to serve that aim. After all, it begs credulity to suppose that so many convenient reversals of expectation actually happened. It’s more credible to suppose that at least some of them are narrative inventions; and probably, all of them. One such invention could easily be the empty tomb. And as we saw above, an empty tomb would have made a tremendously powerful parabolic symbol, rich with meaning. And all the evidence lines up with Mark having constructed it for exactly such a purpose. None stands against.


The women are also symbolic
The Women
Even the names of the women in Mark’s empty tomb tale are likely symbolic. Salome is the feminine of Solomon, an obvious symbol of supreme wisdom and kingship. Wisdom was often portrayed as a feminine being (Sophia), so to have her represented here behind a symbolic name rich with the same meaning is not unusual. Mariam (the name we now translate as Mary) was famously the sister of Moses and Aaron, who played several key roles in the legendary escape from Egypt, including her connection with that famous well of salvation that acquired her name, and being the one who led the Hebrew women in song after their deliverance from Egypt—and Egypt was frequently used in ancient Jewish literature as a symbol of the Land of the Dead, just as crossing the wilderness into Palestine symbolized the process of salvation, escaping from death into Paradise.

But Mark gives us two Mary’s, representing two aspects of this legendary role. “Magdalene” is a variant Hellenization of the Hebrew for “tower,” the same exact word transcribed as Magdôlon in the Septuagint—in other words the biblical Migdol, representing the borders of Egypt, and hence of Death. In Exodus 13, the Hebrews camped near Migdol to lure the Pharaoh’s army to their doom, after which “they passed through the midst of the sea into the wilderness three days” (Numbers 33:7-8), just as Jesus had done, on their way to the “twelve springs and seventy palm trees” of Elim (33:9), just as we know the gospel would be spread by twelve disciples and—according to Luke 10:1-17—seventy missionaries. Meanwhile, “Mary the mother of Jacob” (many don’t know it, but “James” is simply Jacob in the original languages, not a different name) is an obvious reference to the Jacob, of Jacob’s well, whose connection we already see Mark intended. This Jacob is of course better known as Israel himself.

So these two Marys in Mark represent Egypt and Israel, one literally the Mother of Israel; the other, the harbinger of escape from the land of the dead. Thus they represent (on the one side) the borders of the Promised Land and the miraculous defeat of death needed to get across, and (on the other side) the founding of a new nation, a New Israel—both linked to each other, through the sister of the first savior, Moses, and Aaron (the first High Priest), and mediated by Wisdom (Salome).

Another clue that these women are symbolic is the fact that they don’t exist in Mark’s story at all except on three symbolically connected occasions: they attend the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Jesus—the very events Mark adapts from that sequence of three Psalms (though Salome is omitted from the burial: Mark 15:40, 15:47, 16:1). In Mark’s Gospel we never hear of any of these women until then, not once in the entire ministry of Jesus. Nor are any of them explained (who are they? why are they there?). They simply appear, serve their mythical function, and vanish (none exist in Acts, either, after Acts 1 when the public history of the church begins in Acts 2; they do not appear to have ever been historical).

All this seems a highly improbable coincidence, there being exactly three women, with exactly these names, appearing exactly three times (that Mark’s fabrications tended to love the deployment of patterns of three I demonstrate in Chapter 10.4 of Historicity), which evoke exactly those scriptures, and triangulate in exactly this way, serving no other purpose and given no other explanation, all simply to convey an incredibly convenient message about the Gospel and the status of Christ as Messiah and miraculous victor over the Land of the Dead. What are the odds?

Maybe you’re not as impressed by all these coincidences as I am. But you don’t have to agree with my analysis of the evident symbolism of these women. The only thing that matters is that this interpretation cannot be ruled out—there’s no evidence against it, and some evidence for it. Mark even tells us he expressly approves of concealing symbolic meanings behind seemingly mundane narratives (see Mark 4:11-12, 33-34), and the names and events of this narrative fit the deeper meaning of the Gospel with surprising convenience.

These details therefore provide an available motive to invent a visit to the tomb by women, especially these particular women, which means we cannot assume the Christians would instead have invented a visit by men first. We cannot demonstrate that they would. For inventing a visit by women carried even more meaningful symbolism, and was even more in accordance with the Gospel message itself. It therefore cannot be said Mark had “no reason” to contrive these women as the finders of the tomb. We have no evidence these women ever existed before his invention of them. And we have no evidence he names them for any other reason than their symbolic role in the text.
I am not saying that this proves anything for sure, the only claim that I am making is that if someone is going to invent a story an if someone has the liberty (and the will) to lie and invent any witnesses to promote an agenda…………one is more likely to invent witnesses that would be considered reliable. By the people that you are trying to convince.

The simplest explanation is that the authors mentioned woman because the authors thought women where the first witnesses, you symbolism stuff simply adds complexity without adding any explanatory value
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Reply to post 213
That is not a bare appeal to numbers, that is saying that more than one witness is better than just one witness.
Do you see the difference?

Oh I'm sorry I didn't realise you could demonstrate any objective evidence for who the authors were, or to substantiate the claim that they spoke to eyewitnesses, beyond the bare anonymous hearsay claims in the gospels?

Otherwise it was and is a bare appeal to numbers. Do you see the difference between an anonymous text, making claims about eyewitnesses, and actually having evidence to support those claims?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Reply to post 214


Luke was not a disciple of Jesus in the Gospels and Mark also was not.
If those names were added it is because it had been passed down that these were the authors.

Great, now evidence that claim, only we know the original gospels were unauthored, and those names added later to lend credence to the narratives, written anonymously the earliest decades after the fact. Oh give the Pope a bell, the Vatican will be stupefied at this news, you might get a papal knighthood.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sheldon said:
What? You claimed "unquestioned existence of Paul and his proximity to the life of Jesus which verifies the life and death of Jesus." Paul neither met nor knew nor Jesus, thus your claim is demonstrably false?
Reply to post 215

To claim that Paul started believing in Jesus soon after the death of Jesus if all of the Jews of the day in and around Jerusalem knew that Jesus had not existed and knew that this non existent Jesus was not crucified, is beyond ridiculous.

If you say so, but since I have made no such claim I'm struggling to see the relevance of this straw man? You claimed that the "unquestioned existence of Paul and his proximity to the life of Jesus which verifies the life and death of Jesus."

Again then, since you seem confused Paul neither met nor knew nor Jesus, thus your claim is demonstrably false?

The other Jews never claimed that Jesus did not exist. That is a recent invention and plainly ridiculous in the extreme.

You still seem confused here, my point was that your claim was false because Paul never met and didn't know Jesus. The argument for an historical Jesus is separate to this fact.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Do you actually believe that Paul, someone who would know if Jesus existed and was crucified, started preaching about a non existent Jew who was crucified and resurrected, when all the Jews would know at that time, that Jesus did not even exist and was not crucified?
Or are you just trolling?

Well you can only speculate how sure Paul was, he never met Jesus, and didn't know him at all. Didn't convert until after he was alleged to have died. Just for starters.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Nobody knows the dates of the writing of the gospels but the evidence, without the naturalistic presumption that prophecy is not true, points to pre 70AD dating.


LINK
"Most scholars believe the gospel was composed between AD 80 and 90, with a range of possibility between AD 70 to 110; a pre-70 date remains a minority view. The work does not identify its author, and the early tradition attributing it to the apostle Matthew is rejected by modern scholars."


LINK
"Most scholars date Mark to c. 66–74 AD, either shortly before or after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD. They reject the traditional ascription to Mark the Evangelist, the companion of the Apostle Peter, which probably arose from the desire of early Christians to link the work to an authoritative figure, and believe it to be the work of an author working with various sources..The Gospel of Mark is anonymous.

LINK
"Most modern scholars agree that the main sources used for Luke were a), the Gospel of Mark, b), a hypothetical sayings collection called the Q source, and c), material found in no other gospels, often referred to as the L (for Luke) source. The author is anonymous; The most probable date for its composition is around AD 80–110, and there is evidence that it was still being revised well into the 2nd century."

LINK
"John reached its final form around AD 90–110, although it contains signs of origins dating back to AD 70 and possibly even earlier. Like the three other gospels, it is anonymous, although it identifies an unnamed "disciple whom Jesus loved" as the source of its traditions."
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Objective is very subjective.

One could also say that "Cold-case Christianity" atheist Wallace was also very objective.
One could also say that atheist journalist L. Strobel was also very objective.

So, again, a matter of perspective.

But I understand where you are coming from and you have every right to your position.

It's not my position, it's a fact that Dr Erhman is well respected scholar and historian. My opinion on that, if I held one, would be moot. Since historical scholars are not validated nor do their reputations depend on my views.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
[/QUOTE]
Sheldon said:
Not if there is no evidence to corroborate there ever were any eyewitnesses, then no this wouldn't satisfy the methods of historical verification. The Gospels being anonymous, and everything in them beyond the crucifixion being unsubstantiated by any independent source, is simply hearsay. Of course I'm not sure what you mean by admissible, they simply are hearsay rather then reliable historical evidence.
Well... that isn't quite the report I get from reading the Gospels. So I'm not sure what you mean by inadmissible.

I never said it was, you used the word inadmissible, as I pointed out I have no idea what you mean in this context.

But, understanding the approach that you are coming from, I respect your position even if I believe you are wrong.

Well it's not my position per se, I am just reflecting the facts. That there is no independent evidence to corroborate there ever were any eyewitnesses, so contrary to your claim, this wouldn't satisfy the methods of historical verification. The Gospels being anonymous, and everything in them beyond the crucifixion being unsubstantiated by any independent source, means they're hearsay, by definition.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
It seems like, in accordance to what you are basing it from, that from the plethora of comments I am eliciting from you that I am sticking a nerve.

Nope, your constant denial of facts doesn't impact me at all. Nor does it change those facts.

From the diet of the sites you are reading from, I understand why you hold to that position.

Ah deflecting the facts again, this just shows you haven't read the article in the link, if you had you'd know that Wikipedia offers citations for the texts I quoted. I understand though, you need to deny these facts, and favour apologetics that depict them as irrelevant, hence your passive aggressive attempts to project this subjective bias onto me, even though I have no stake in whether they were authored originally or not.

The site is less relevant than the facts, which are accepted by the majority of historians. That the original gospel texts were unauthored. No one disputes this anymore, the names were assigned later.

The diet of what I gather my information from (such as the renown encyclopedia Britannica), I wouldn't agree.

Well lets compare the two sources for the gospel of Luke:

LINK Wikipedia
"Most modern scholars agree that the main sources used for Luke were a), the Gospel of Mark, b), a hypothetical sayings collection called the Q source, and c), material found in no other gospels, often referred to as the L (for Luke) source. The author is anonymous; The most probable date for its composition is around AD 80–110, and there is evidence that it was still being revised well into the 2nd century."

Encyclopaedia Britannica
" If the Gospel bearing his name and the Acts of the Apostles were written by the traditionally ascribed author, they were probably composed during or shortly after the Jewish revolt (66–73 CE).

Some scholars, on the other hand, doubt that Luke is in fact the author of the two New Testament books traditionally ascribed to him and argue for a date later in the 1st century CE."

Britannica acknowledges the authorship was assigned after the fact. The original texts were unauthored.
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
Yes.. I quite understand you position.

I look at the same evidence and come to a different conclusion. But I respect your right to hold a different position.

You've simply ignored the post in its entirety, and resorted to the same passive aggressive hand waving. If you are not interested in debating then just don't respond, what you're doing is very disingenuous.

It was you who made the comparison between Shakespeare's existence and Jesus's, and I took the time to explain why Shakespeare's existence was irrelevant or even trivial to me, in comparison to the literary work itself. Also if Jesus existed this would not impact my atheism at all, as his existence per se does not evidence that he was anything but human, but as a Christian your beliefs must be predicated on an extant Jesus.

Your response doesn't even make any sense. Let alone address what I said.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
If the person that delivered it to me was an eyewitness... its a deposition (which is what I have been saying)

A deposition is a sworn testimony, the claims in the gospels are hearsay, and were written decades after the alleged events, and were originally anonymous, with names assigned later.

They're as far from a sworn depositions as one can possibly imagine.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You've simply ignored the post in its entirety, and resorted to the same passive aggressive hand waving. If you are not interested in debating then just don't respond, what you're doing is very disingenuous.

It was you who made the comparison between Shakespeare's existence and Jesus's, and I took the time to explain why Shakespeare's existence was irrelevant or even trivial to me, in comparison to the literary work itself. Also if Jesus existed this would not impact my atheism at all, as his existence per se does not evidence that he was anything but human, but as a Christian your beliefs must be predicated on an extant Jesus.

Your response doesn't even make any sense. Let alone address what I said.
It made a sort of a sense. When one has nothing then one needs a alternative tactic. It was deflection.
 
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